SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)

[scholar JW]

JW Insider

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

This is completely false.

Non-WT models accept the 70 years. They fit the Biblical view that the 70 years was given to Babylon as the length of time that Babylon would dominate these nations all around. The Bible says this period would be 70 years, and THOUSANDS of stone tablets support the Bible's view that this was 70 years.

The Watchtower has turned this 70 year period into a 90 year period, completely unsupported in the Bible. Not only that but the Bible gives some evidence AGAINST this being a 90 year period.

The simple fact of the matter is that scholarship has always been confused over the 70 years and some scholars have because of their chronology compressed it to '50 years' if you read the literature on this subject. Broadly speaking, most scholars favour the 70 year Babylonish domination hypothesis but Exilic scholars support the Exilic theory rather than the Domination hypothesis. 

The Bible clearly defines the 70 years as a period of Servitude-Exile-Desolation only and your argument about a 90 year period is simply mischief making for 90 years is not stated in WT  publications applicable to the Jeremiah.

scholar JW

[Ann O'Maly]

11 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Read the entire verse 12 because it refers to the fact that the King, is nation and the land would be become ' a desolated wasteland for all time'-NWT Such a process was not just a one off but would come into effect after the 70 years had expired which was 537 BCE

You're asking us to believe that the King of Babylon was called to account two years after he was forcibly deposed and his city conquered. Riiight.

When did Babylon become a desolated wasteland, by the way?

15 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Unnecessary because Young simply employed a methodology to resolve the 586/7 BCE dilemma and his opinion favoured 587 BCE.

Thank you for also confirming that Young did, in fact, resolve the 587/586 dilemma and that you initially told a whopping fib. 👍

[scholar JW]

Ann O'Maly

12 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

You're asking us to believe that the King of Babylon was called to account two years after he was forcibly deposed and his city conquered. Riiight.

When did Babylon become a desolated wasteland, by the way?

Exactly! The rules of exegesis mast be applied to a correct understanding of this verse- vs.12: The text begins "But when 70 years have been fulfilled'. so one must determine when these words apply. Was it at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE or after that time? Ezra, the historian wrote that after quoting the same words of Jeremiah as quoted refers to the 1st year of Cyrus which was after the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE but to events subsequent to that event to events of the publishing of his Decree which released the Exiles in 537 BCE.

In short, vs 12 commences a new prophecy having dealt with the 70 years of Judah a new oracle against the Nations begins a new context from the preceding verses 1-11 as recognized by at least one major commentary on Jeremiah. Next, again applying the rules of exegesis the verse 12 describes to whom and what the judgement would apply-King of Babylon, the Nation and the Land of Chaldea all together as a single entity meriting judgement. Clearly, Babylon was not desolated in 539 BCE. Finally, the verse describes the nature of the divine judgement -a desolate wasteland for all time'.

Jehovah's judgement against Babylon was not a momentary or singular event in time but would be one of desolation which as a process occurred over periods of time  even up to the present day.

A careful exegesis of Jer. 25:12 shows that this verse cannot be used as a terminus ad quem for the 70 years of Jeremiah as this verse introduces the OAN- Oracles Against the Nations beginning with Babylon. You should convey this 'new truth' to Alan F and COJ for their education.

The answer to your second question would be as reported by Jerome about the 4th century CE- Jer. 51:37

scholar JW

[scholar JW]

Ann O'Maly

41 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Thank you for also confirming that Young did, in fact, resolve the 587/586 dilemma and that you initially told a whopping fib. 👍

Young simply proposed a solution to the 586/7BCE debacle resolved in his own mind and not necessarily of his peers.

scholar JW

[AlanF]

23 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Alan de Fool

The said scholar stands for integrity and truth, qualities that are not of your character!!!

scholar JW

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

[AlanF]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Thank you - I made a copy of your notes and will look at it when I have more time.  I noticed that you quoted a section which equates star with worship of certain gods.

This is what AlanF and his ilk do not understand and therefore reject the equation of the stars with the predictions and spells and associated health of people - they just see it as pure science and not as a religion.  Science as we know it today did not exist in ancient times in the entire middle east.....they observed the planets and stars as part of their religion. I quote: " 

 'The zodiacal constellations were made objects of false worship from early Mesopotamian times onward. Certain qualities were attributed to each of the different constellations, and these were then used in astrological predictions based on the particular position or relationship of the celestial bodies to the signs of the zodiac at any given time. As shown by the text at 2 Kings 23:5, such use of astrology was introduced into Judah by foreign-god priests whom certain kings had brought into the country. Jehovah God long before had prohibited such star worship on penalty of death.—De 17:2-7.

Astrology was a predominant facet of Babylonian worship. The predictions based on the zodiac by her astrologers, however, did not save Babylon from destruction, even as the prophet Isaiah had accurately forewarned.—Isa 47:12-15;  '

There are many scriptures referring to the disgusting practices associated with the star and moon worship which originated in Babylon.  Ur and Haran (both cities which Abraham lived in before crossing the Euphrates  in 1943 BCE) were moon god cities.

For example the star of Ishtar was associated with Venus - if you do not believe me go study some more.....  I am writing from memory.... You will recall that Ishtar   and Baal worship was the male and female fertility gods.  Babylon had the Ishtar gate.  

"So he put out of business the foreign-god priests, whom the kings of Judah had appointed to make sacrificial smoke on the high places in the cities of Judah and the surroundings of Jerusalem, as well as those making sacrificial smoke to Baʹal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations of the zodiac, and to all the army of the heavens."

Alan F is so dismissive of anything does not does originate with him..... thank goodness I have done my own research - not because I want to be smart - but because I love Jehovah and want to understand the background of the bible. 

 

 

Completely clueless.

[AlanF]

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

Maybe you are the one with no insight - because he may be correcting you and you are too obtuse to see it.

The fact that you cannot see the connection between the gods and the stars indicates that you have no clue of Babylonian culture.  They did not have science - religion was their 'everything' - superstition spells and all.

Another knee-jerk clueless defense.

[AlanF]

7 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Ann O'Maly

NO. Read the entire verse 12 because it refers to the fact that the King, is nation and the land would be become ' a desolated wasteland for all time'-NWT Such a process was not just a one off but would come into effect after the 70 years had expired which was 537 BCE  so exegesis cannot permit that such a prophecy was fulfilled with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. This interpretation of these words of Jeremiah were fulfilled with the Return in the 'first year of Cyrus' according to the Chronicler which was after 539 BCE in 537 BCE.

Another example of JWish ass-backwards thinking.

Jer. 25:12 is quite clear: When the 70 years are complete, or Upon the completion of 70 years, the king of Babylon will be punished. In other words, FIRST the 70 years are completed or fulfilled, and THEN the king is punished.

JW apologists have been so thoroughly schooled in ass-backwards thinking that they don't notice such things.

That's why they start with 1914 and work backwards to get to 607.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

"But when 70 years have been fulfilled'. so one must determine when these words apply. Was it at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE or after that time?

 

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Clearly, Babylon was not desolated in 539 BCE. Finally, the verse describes the nature of the divine judgement -a desolate wasteland for all time'.

 

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Jehovah's judgement against Babylon was not a momentary or singular event in time but would be one of desolation which as a process occurred over periods of time  even up to the present day.

Why all this is so similar to, and remind me on, "overlapping" solution?

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

terminus ad quem

WTJWorg made Terminus Post Quem and  Terminus Ante Quem for "this generation will not pass" in "old lights insightful knowledge". Without going into the nuances they created about the interpretations of the term "generation", it was clear to everyone, at that time, and especially today, that "that generation" should have lasted from cca 1914 + 70-80 years according to JW scholars, with "happy conclusion" to the end of 20th century. :)) 

[Arauna]

3 hours ago, AlanF said:

FIRST the 70 years are completed or fulfilled, and THEN the king is punished.

So how was Babylon punished after the 70 years?  Do you know?   

[Ann O'Maly]

12 hours ago, scholar JW said:

one must determine when these words apply. Was it at the time of Babylon's Fall in 539 BCE

Yes! The king was certainly punished then.

12 hours ago, scholar JW said:

Next, again applying the rules of exegesis the verse 12 describes to whom and what the judgement would apply-King of Babylon, the Nation and the Land of Chaldea all together as a single entity meriting judgement. Clearly, Babylon was not desolated in 539 BCE. ...

... Jehovah's judgement against Babylon was not a momentary or singular event in time but would be one of desolation which as a process occurred over periods of time  even up to the present day. ...

... The answer to your second question would be as reported by Jerome about the 4th century CE- Jer. 51:37

Why start the judgment in 537? Which king was punished in 537? Why not start the judgment in the 4th century CE when Babylon was a pile of rubble and the nation's punishment was complete? It doesn't work, Neil.

Anyway, contextually, Jer. 51:37 is talking about the desolation and depopulation of Babylon at the hands of the Medians and its allies (v. 27f.). When did that happen? It also talks about God's people having to flee for their lives during this same bloody battle resulting in the slaughter of the Babylonian army (v. 1-6, 45). When did that happen?

(Yeah, I guess we're straying into the nature of prophecy, how literally we're supposed to take it, and which cherry-picked parts are historically true. Another can of worms, lol.)

[AlanF]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

So how was Babylon punished after the 70 years?  Do you know?   

The answer has been given repeatedly, by me, Ann, JW Insider, and perhaps others in this and other threads. Assuming you're not as stupid as ScholarJW Pretendus and know how to search for text in your browser (Control-F in Windows), search for Jeremiah 25:12 and see if you can figure it out.

Here, I'll give you a little more on that: the passage does not just say that Babylon will be punished, but that the king of Babylon will be punished. That was Nabonidus the main king who was deposed, and Belshazzar his viceroy, who was killed. Read Daniel 5 about "mene, mene . . .". Also Jer. 27:7 and 2 Chron. 36:20-21.

As for Babylon itself, it continued as a working city until roughly 700 CE, depending on how you measure "working". That's another 1,200 years.