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SECULAR EVIDENCE and NEO-BABYLONIAN CHRONOLOGY (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, etc.)


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22 minutes ago, scholar JW said:

Nope for our Chronology is in harmony with secular chronology albeit a little 'fine tuning' of a corrective of some twenty years. The 70 years is a major piece of Jewish history and those that choose to ignore it do so at expense of sound scholarship.

The 586/7 dilemma continues to haunt modern scholarship from the days of Edwin Thiele which was heightened as real conundrum of secular chronology by Rodger Young who has not yet solved the problem and has not yet been solved. Young  of course , ignores the 70 years as does Edwin Thiele and others.

Yes, please do continue with your lies, as all intelligent readers will become better educated in how not to be scholastically honest.

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Let me try to lay this out for you (although this is more for any interested readers' benefit than for yours). The stars, planets, and Moon are components in a giant sky-clock that keeps perfect time. The 'fixed' stars are like the numbers spaced out on the clock's face. The planets and Moon are like the hands on the clock. Through their cyclical alignments with each other and against the 'fixed' starry backdrop, we can tell the time - the year, the month, the day. Now, to be a 'competent'

Since love doesn't keep account of the injury and covers a multitude of sins, I will not go back and show you what you have actually said. Besides, I've never wanted to make this into a contest of who is smart or not. I've never claimed to be smarter than you or anyone else here. This just happens to be one of my strong interests -- and of course it's an interest that is recommended in the Watchtower itself. It's easy to make mistakes in this area of study. I've made quite a few while learning a

It was already answered, by AlanF, and I will go ahead and answer it again in my next post. But you need to understand why "scholar JW" will always claim that it wasn't really answered. This type of question is a kind of game with "scholar JW." He has about 4 of these types of questions from what I can see. If you have looked up his former behavior on all forums where he brings such things up, you'll see that "scholar JW" believes this must be a trick question. It's easy to answer correctly

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5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The period began in 997 BCE  with the splitting of the kingdom of Israel

Date is disputed. Other non-WT models are out there that fit the 390 years with the conventional timeline.

5 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The foretold definite historic period of '70 years' ended with the Return of the Jews under the Decree of King Cyrus of Persia in 537 BCE. Jer. 25:12; 2 Chron.36: 22-23; Ezr.1: 1-4; 3:1.

As has been shown ad infinitum, Jer. 25:12 falsifies your claim that the 70 year period of the nations' servitude to Babylon ended with the repatriation of the Jews.

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The 70 weeks of years of Daniel

... is another subject beyond the scope of this thread and it similarly involves an erroneous WT starting date.

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The Gentile Times or the appointed times of the nations of Daniel ... ... destruction of Jerusalem by King Nebuchadnezzar in 607 BCE with a duration of 2520 years or 'seven times'. Da. 4: 10-17; 20-25  and ended with the installation of Jesus Christ, King of God's Kingdom in 1914 CE. Da. 4: 17; 25-26, 32, 34; Lu 21:24; Da. 7:13-14; Rev. 12:5-12. 

Again, WT interpretation of these periods is upended by sound exegesis and by WT following its own new approach regarding types and antitypes:

Humans cannot know which Bible accounts are shadows of things to come and which are not. The clearest course is this: Where the Scriptures teach that an individual, an event, or an object is typical of something else, we accept it as such. Otherwise, we ought to be reluctant to assign an antitypical application to a certain person or account if there is no specific Scriptural basis for doing so. - w15 3/15 p. 18

6 hours ago, scholar JW said:

The 586/7 dilemma continues to haunt modern scholarship from the days of Edwin Thiele which was heightened as real conundrum of secular chronology by Rodger Young who has not yet solved the problem and has not yet been solved. 

Neil, whatever WT fantasies you have swirling around in that stubborn skull of yours, you know what you've just said above isn't true. You know Young's articles well enough and are familiar with his conclusions. Doesn't your conscience prick you when you lie like that, especially when you can be caught out so easily? Have you no shame? Smh. 😦

"In this paper, the method is applied to all Scriptures in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, 2 Kings, and 2 Chronicles relating to the date of Jerusalem's fall to Nebuchadnezzar. It is shown that all texts involved are in harmony with themselves and with each other, and the only year possible for Jerusalem's fall is 587 BC."

    Hello guest!

"The conclusions from the analysis are as follows.

"(1) Jerusalem fell in the fourth month (Tammuz) of 587 bc. All sources which bear on the question—Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and 2 Kings—are consistent in dating the event in that year."

-

    Hello guest!

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It appears, some have failed in the concept of the 15° in astronomical reference. I have attempted to explain such a concept by using simple illustrations. However, this has failed since those people don’t understand the differences with such concepts of latitude, longitude, constellations, axis, minutes, points, units, so forth and so on, that people use as part of their point of reference when they are contributing, they’re personal findings and understanding. How the ancients might have seen the sky without the aid of modern man-made algorithms to give themselves the results the developers personally desire.

Zodiac Calendars in the Dead Sea Scrolls 2014

I will now look at a selection of bh texts in more depth in order to illustrate my
hypothesis that 4Q318 is useable as an ideal calendar.


(No. 4) Text 21 (bm 33018):253 22 Ulūlu (Month vi), Year 127 s.e = 1 October, 125
b.c.e. The moon was in “the beginning of Leo.” npid: c. 6.4 mths.
bh computation: moon: 00° leo, sun: 10° libra. The text states that the child was born in the 11th hour (c. 5pm), the moon was at the
beginning of Leo (“in the head of the Lion” = Normal Star ε Leontis) in the hour of the birth (obv. 4) and the sun was in Libra (obv. 4) (no degree given). The
bh text states twice that the moon was at 24° Cancer before sunrise on 22 Ulūlu (obv. 3, rev. 6) and at 9° Leo before sunrise on the following day, 23 Ulūlu (rev.6–7). Therefore, if the ideal lunar motion is 1° per two hours, the moon could
be in the early degrees of Leo at the sunset. (The lunar motion would be fast, the moon has travelled about 15° in 24 hours). p.110

 

Since the earth is almost round, slightly flattened at the poles, it is divided up into 360-degree lines called (longi­tude lines which are imaginary lines) that runs from the North Pole to the South Pole around the earth. The FIRST longitude line begins north to south through Greenwich, a tow n near London, England. This line is called THE PRIME MERIDIAN, for it DIVIDES the 360 degrees) to the EAST countries, and meets the International Date Line. And to the west from (The Prime Meridian) toward America, around to the International Date Line. THE INTERNATIONAL DATE LINE runs also north and south poles and is located in the middle of the Pacific Ocean between Siberia and Alaska. It takes the EARTH 24 HOURS to complete a turn. So, to find out what the HOUR IS. we DIVIDE 24 hours into the 360 degrees, which equals to 15 degrees. That is, EACH HOUR IS 15 DEGREES that makes up A NEW TIME ZONE. This means that between every longitude line is a distance of 15° or I hour. So, from the Prime Meridian going east an 180° around the earth to the International Date Line totaling 12 hours, or going the other way (west) an 180 is 12 hours to the International Date Line, all total of 24 hours.

It is therefore, with the coming of the PROPHETIC HOUR we ENTER INTO A NEW TIME ZONE! “THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.” Now, you know in division, after you have divided the number, then you times it and see if it is right or you might have a remaining number; let’s sec. (24 divided by 360= 15 now 15 x 24 = 360) there is no number remaining. THUS, I SEE DURING THIS BIBLE PROPHETIC HOUR THERE IS NO REMAINING NUMBER LEFT THAT MAKES UP THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, AFTER THE CHURCH IS TAKEN, IT IS A WHOLE NUMBER! DON’T MISS IT!

 

The Moon has 11 phases; conjunction; then 15 degrees distant from the Sun. rising; third, 45 degrees distant, crescent; fourth, 90 degrees distant from the Sun. [first) half1: fifth. 91 to 135 degrees distant from the Sun, and it is called gibbous; sixth, 180 degrees distant from the Sun. full Moon; seventh, 45 degrees2 distant from the full Moon. {i.e., up to 225 (degrees from the Sun], it makes its second gibbous [phase]; eighth, 270 degrees distant from the Sun, second half; ninth, 315 degrees distant, second crescent; tenth, from 345 to} 360 degrees distant from the Sun. setting; and eleventh, the dark [of the Moon]. It is necessary to investigate the rulers of these phases and their houses from the ASC; for the house of the phase signifies the birth and the first age, and the ruler of the phase the second age. If then the sign of the phase or the ruler of the sign chances to be in an evil house and il is beheld by malefics, it makes the nativities low-born and degraded; but if the phase happens to be annular. and its ruler is aspected by benefics.

It was at about the same time, early in the fifth century, that a standard numerical reference for the positions of the sun in the heavens were adopted for the calculation of what we call longitudes. The earliest zodiacal longitudes that can be dated appear in one of the Saros Cycle Texts, the text that lists the 38 solar eclipse possibilities from 475 B.C.E. to 457 B.C.E. in the reigns of Xerxes II and Artaxerxes I. As discussed earlier the 360 ideal calendar days could have been transformed into ecliptical degrees by associating intervals of solar risings along the horizon with the 12 ideal months. The sun would stay in each of the twelve arcs for 30 days, giving rise to a numerically identified solar path divided into twelve portions of 30 units each, called UŠ. This, as posited by Brack-Bernsen and Hunger, is a plausible derivation of the twelve zodiacal signs and the 360 degrees of the ecliptic. Indeed, it is common practice in late astrological texts to substitute months for zodiacal signs, or simply to use numerals to indicate either one, making reference to months or signs quite ambiguous. And if the signs of the zodiac and their corresponding degrees were conceived of with respect to the various positions of the sun on the horizon throughout the year, we do not have a great circle on the celestial sphere around which the sun, moon, and planets progress from west to east against the fixed star background.

THE BOOK OF THE STARS

As you know, imaginary lines running from the north pole to the south pole are called meridians of longitude. Now the Earth has been divided into 24 of these lines, the zero meridian, from which distances east and west are measured, running through Greenwich, England. There are 24 of these standard meridians and hence they are 15 degrees apart since there are 360 degrees in a circle – and they are 1 hour apart — since there are 24 hours in a day, and therefore 15 degrees equal 1 hour. (See Chapter X, The Time o Dag.) Now, since it is 12 o'clock noon when the Sun passes over any one of these standard meridians, it will be 11 o'clock A. M., 15 degrees west of it, and 1 o'clock P. M., 15 degrees east of it, and consequently there will be an hour's difference in the time, either fast or slow, for every 15 degrees, depending on whether you count east or west from the noon meridian.

The motion of the earth on its axis is, at all times, equable and uniform; and, since it turns round its axis eastward once in every 24 hours, all parts of the equator, or great circle of 360 degrees, will pass by the sun, or star, in equal portions of time: therefore the twenty fourth part of the equator, viz., 15 degrees, will pass by the sun in one hour of time: for, 24? x 15. or 1 hour, = 360 degrees; and, conversely, 360 degrees + 24 hours = 15 degrees or 1 hour.

Human Environments_ A Cross-Cultural Encyclopedia 1995

The Chinese calendar system is older and more complex than either the Jewish or Muslim. The Chinese solar calendar of 365.25 days and lunar calendar of 29.5 days per month date
to the fourteenth century B.C. As early as 770 B.C., the Chinese also recognized the Metonic
cycle—periods of 19 years with 7 seasons added at intervals that then equal 19 solar years. The
traditional Chinese solar calendar still in use (although replaced since 1912 to some extent by
government sanction of the Gregorian calendar) dates to the third century B.C. and is based on a
meteorological cycle of 24 points that equal 15 degrees apart on the ecliptic plane.
As the plane
is 360 degrees, it takes 1 solar year to complete it, making the cycle and the calendar a solar one.
The Chinese also employ a lunar calendar of 12 months of 29 or 30 days each, with an extra month added at 7 points in the 19-year cycle. This calendar is used primarily to determine the date of religious holidays. Pp.37-38

Ancient History a Revised Chronology An Updated Revision 2012

Naram was called by Nebuchadnezzar II as (he son of Sargon. This was due to his adoption by Sargon after rescuing the horse of Sargon. One of the Vedic hymns refers to Naram as the Demon king. Urjayanti is the name of the city of Ur, Ur the victorious (in the hymn). He adopted the moon goddess as his main god complete with human sacrifices, which has been found in Ur excavations. He is equated with the Minotaur of Crete, the son of Minos. His seal is that of the Bull man. His scripts at Abydos are written in Sumerian, not Egyptian, but they were written in reverse of Sumerian as it read in the direction of normal Egyptian / Semitic. He would also be connected to Tectemus. son of Minos in Crete. The alternate name for Naram, Athothis, equates to their god, Osiris. It might be that Naram was deified and became the god Osiris. His tomb was considered to be the tomb of Osiris (Arthur Weigall, “A History of the Pharaohs'}. Osiris was the Baal of the Phoenicians and the Marduk of the Babylonians. He is equated as well to Tammuz. the resurrected son of Nimrod (declared so by Semiramis). In this revised chronology, Naram is not the Osiris or Tammuz equated to Nimrod, but he might have been deified later as Osiris resurrected.

Dudu's inscriptions are also in Sumerian in Abydos. His tomb was large and immaculate. It is unknown where Manetho got the name of Usaphaidos for Dudu (Usaph for short), as there are no monuments that bear that name for him. Bidi or Azab was a local Egyptian pharaoh, not the king of Mesopotamia as the previous rulers. This appears to be the beginning of the separation of Egypt from the Babylonian Empire under (he Agade Dynasty.

 

The concept of the Egyptian calendar is unknown as to when it started. The earliest mention of the calendar in Egypt is with the Eber Papyrus. Hie calendar was consistent with the early Babylonian and Hebrew calendars, that of 360 days per year. After 700 B.C., the 5 Epogomenal days were added. It isn't know for sure when Egypt started to name the months of their calendar. The Hebrews did not bring the Egyptian names of their months with them when they left Egypt as they did when they left Babylon. The Egyptian calendar started in the Vernal Equinox as did the Hebrew and Babylonian calendars. There are a few sources that disagree with this, and believe that the first month was at the Autumnal Equinox. After the one Canicular Period had passed (1460 years), the addition of the 5 days caused the Egyptian calendar to float through the seasons. It became such that 1461 Egyptian years are equal to 1460 Julian years. With the revised understanding of the changes of the solar system. this is only true after 715 B.C. Some historians try to indicate that Assis of the Hyksos dynasty of Egypt added the 5 days (Epogomenal days) to the Egyptian calendar, but there are multiple documents in the conventional 18th dynasty (which followed the Hyksos dynasts') that refine this belief. During the conventional 18th dynasty, the calendar still operated as a 360 day per year calendar.

 

Egyptian astrologers, Petrositis and Necepso, created a secret society which they kept the astrological secrets hidden. They divined that creation took place at the rising of the Dog Star and it was tracked from them, according to some historians. They are said to have learned their craft from Hermes (which is identified with Cush in this revised chronology). According to them, the sun was in the 15th degree of Leo and the moon was in the 15th degree of Cancer at the creation of the world. Even in modern days, historians have put much faith in the Egyptian rising of the dog-star (Sirius). John Jackson quotes many differences between Africanus, Hipparchus, and several others. His summary of findings is that none were exact with each other. This has been found to be true with modern historians as well, noted by Immanuel Velikovsky. Several modern Egyptologists have discounted the use of the rising Dog Star as a dating tool.

 

Childish people usually get caught up in games, especially teachers that have no true concept of scripture. They use figures without an adequate representation of bible facts. An ideology used by the worse person to understand such methodology from others, other than the conspirator himself Carl Olof Jonsson. Once again, how do certain individuals use the 15°? Is it for minutes, days, months, years in ancient times? 360°, 360 days, etc.

Just like it would be disingenuous to think, the name Nebuchadnezzar II is only referenced in the sixth century BC. It is pointless to argue such findings with junior achrivers that have made it a career to discredit the Watchtower, when they are proven wrong by their own secular evidence.

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2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

the point that he had no clue what Gertoux or I were talking about

Apparently, neither do you and your sidekick JWinsider, educate yourselves as not to look so foolish in this forum. Srecko ignorance just goes for the ride. I expect that type of nonsense from him since he is as clueless as you 3. However, Bravo!!! 😉

By the way, where do you get your info from to submit your nonsense, think about how stupid you are by posting such idiocy. Fire away nanny!!!😁

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3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

[Quoting Francesca Rochberg's In the Path of the Moon: Babylonian Celestial Divination and Its Legacy (2010), p.363-4]

"As discussed earlier the 360 ideal calendar days could have been transformed into ecliptical degrees by associating intervals of solar risings along the horizon with the 12 ideal months. The sun would stay in each of the twelve arcs for 30 days, giving rise to a numerically identified solar path divided into twelve portions of 30 units each, called UŠ. This, as posited by Brack-Bernsen and Hunger, is a plausible derivation of the twelve zodiacal signs and the 360 degrees of the ecliptic."

The answer was even there in your random c&p's. You're too much of a giant nitwit to have noticed! 🤣🤣🤣

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3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

THE BOOK OF THE STARS

Thank you - I made a copy of your notes and will look at it when I have more time.  I noticed that you quoted a section which equates star with worship of certain gods.

This is what AlanF and his ilk do not understand and therefore reject the equation of the stars with the predictions and spells and associated health of people - they just see it as pure science and not as a religion.  Science as we know it today did not exist in ancient times in the entire middle east.....they observed the planets and stars as part of their religion. I quote: " 

 'The zodiacal constellations were made objects of false worship from early Mesopotamian times onward. Certain qualities were attributed to each of the different constellations, and these were then used in astrological predictions based on the particular position or relationship of the celestial bodies to the signs of the zodiac at any given time. As shown by the text at 

    Hello guest!
, such use of astrology was introduced into Judah by foreign-god priests whom certain kings had brought into the country. Jehovah God long before had prohibited such star worship on penalty of death.—
    Hello guest!
.

Astrology was a predominant facet of Babylonian worship. The predictions based on the zodiac by her astrologers, however, did not save Babylon from destruction, even as the prophet Isaiah had accurately forewarned.—

    Hello guest!
;  '

There are many scriptures referring to the disgusting practices associated with the star and moon worship which originated in Babylon.  Ur and Haran (both cities which Abraham lived in before crossing the Euphrates  in 1943 BCE) were moon god cities.

For example the star of Ishtar was associated with Venus - if you do not believe me go study some more.....  I am writing from memory.... You will recall that Ishtar   and Baal worship was the male and female fertility gods.  Babylon had the Ishtar gate.  

"So he put out of business the foreign-god priests, whom the kings of Judah had appointed to make sacrificial smoke on the high places in the cities of Judah and the surroundings of Jerusalem, as well as those making sacrificial smoke to Baʹal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations of the zodiac, and to all the army of the heavens."

Alan F is so dismissive of anything does not does originate with him..... thank goodness I have done my own research - not because I want to be smart - but because I love Jehovah and want to understand the background of the bible. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

nt that he had no clue what Gertoux or I were talking about

Maybe you are the one with no insight - because he may be correcting you and you are too obtuse to see it.

The fact that you cannot see the connection between the gods and the stars indicates that you have no clue of Babylonian culture.  They did not have science - religion was their 'everything' - superstition spells and all.

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6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

This is what AlanF and his ilk do not understand and therefore reject the equation of the stars with the predictions and spells and associated health of people - they just see it as pure science and not as a religion.  Science as we know it today did not exist in ancient times in the entire middle east.....they observed the planets and stars as part of their religion. I quote: "

Of course, he doesn't understand. That alter ego just appears when JWinsider is losing his credibility as a fake witness. No different with O'Maly. But, then again, it's always nice to know who the players are. The same concept I tried to have O'Maly see with fortune-tellers and Babylonian sorcerer. They're just here to play games, that's why I don't have a serious debate with them. However, keep giving them your wisdom. 

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14 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

However, keep giving them your wisdom. 

I do not think I have wisdom but all the studies I have done is to get a better understanding of the mindset and the cultures which  Israel was dealing with.  It is imperative to understand the mindset of ancient nations if one wants to understand the reasons behind their actions.  

Today I was looking at Roman culture in the time of Julius Caesar and realized how important rhetoric was in the senate.....and everywhere else a person wanted to be noticed.     No wonder they looked down on Paul because he was highly qualified spiritually (knowing the mosaic law as a Pharisee) but did not display rhetoric in the Greek way (he must have trained in it but refused to come to them with worldly wisdom and high-class behaviors) but in power of Jehovah's spirit and in humility!

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8 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Date is disputed. Other non-WT models a

Yes - but non-WT models accept the 50 years and not 70 years.  WT chronology fits all the biblical events and the number of years the bible talks about.  We put biblical chronology above secular chronology ..... because we accept the bible as word of God. 

Many false Christian religions do not care if things match up.  They believe in a trinity, immortality of the soul, Jesus did not really die because he was immortal - he did not receive immortality as a reward for faithfulness to God etc. etc. ....So if these fundamental teachings are not important to them how can one expect them to challenge a few wrong years in the secular chronology? 

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    • By JW Insider
      An author from Finland named Pekka Mansikka has written several books and papers which, among other things, look to adjust the secular chronology to fit the Watchtower's chronology. For those who don't know, the Watchtower's chronology requires an extra 20 years of time somewhere between Nebuchadnezzar's reign and the beginning of the reign of Cyrus. This has the effect of pushing back any archaeological date in Nebuchadnezzar's reign by 20 years.
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      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Most sources for his own reference material can also be found online for free, or free with limits. You can find links in his own work to many sites.
       
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      However, they still have to conjoin the fall of Jerusalem from 586 BC to an earlier date written in human history and scripture.
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      The NIV Study Bible
      Copyright © 1985, 1995, 2002, 2008, 2011, 2020 by Zondervan


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      Re 11:11—The “two witnesses” are brought back to life after “the three and a half days”
      I'll explain later today.
    • By JW Insider
      A recent topic about whether the Watchtower view of 607 BCE is SCRIPTURALLY supported is linked below. This new topic should provide a better place to discuss the SECULAR evidence. I also think it would be useful to discuss the methodology that the Watch Tower Society has historically used to treat this evidence.
      I would hope that we can do this without so much side discussions of unrelated topics. To avoid another topic that goes on for 30+ pages where only half of them were on-topic, I would suggest that if we get enough off-topic posts, we merely move them to another more appropriate topic.
      The link to the most recent topic on a similar subject is here:


       
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Everything we read about the "70-Week" prophecy reported in the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!" (Chapter 11) is worthy of attention and demonstrates how accurate and reliable the word of God is even when pronouncing prophecies very distant in time. The historical accuracy and the numerous Scriptural references that gave weight and authority to the whole speech were also evident. Anyone who approaches the Word of God without preconceptions can not but be struck by this demonstration of power and wisdom on the part of God. The explanation of the 70 weeks is unexceptionable but can be said to be the same as other prophecies? What about those calculations on which many of us have based the hopes of a lifetime and that clashed with the criticism of the majority? We are talking about 1914. Is this also a prophecy of Daniel? Was this also treated with the same marvelous accuracy of the seventy weeks we have just read? Although it may not be easy, we try to be truly objective because understanding or not understanding the prophecy, like the rest of God's Word, can make much difference to our eternal future - John 17: 3; 2 Thessalonians 1: 8   WHAT DID OF 1914?   The book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" on pages 85 to 97 explains in detail the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and the 7-time prophecy asserting that it indicates the coming of the Kingdom of God in 1914. It would therefore be profitable to take the book and compare it with what will be read below. Does Nebuchadnezzar's dream really prophesy the coming of the Kingdom of God in 1914?   THAT'S IT? Let's try to examine what is written in the book without prejudices. At a first reading it seems that Jehovah God wanted to give a lesson of humility to Nebuchadnezzar, which happened. The "seven times", at least for him, were seven years and this is confirmed by the whole story. Reading all this without preconceptions, it does not seem that we should look for other explanations more or less hidden. However, let us take the thesis that "the tree indicates a dominion and a sovereignty much greater than those of the king of Babylon. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, the King of the heavens, especially with respect to the earth ". This means, first of all, that the Kingdom of God is comparing, in a certain way, to the kingdom of Babylon and this strides with many biblical passages describing Babylon as the greatest enemy of God's people. It also means that the "vigilante" (ie an angel of Jehovah) decides to overthrow the Kingdom of God and this is, to say the least, strange. Some will object that we must not look for similarities in every aspect of the prophecy but also decide which part of the prophecy must have a second fulfillment and which one could be arbitrary enough. After all, we have no other scriptural references to show us which details to focus on and which to leave out. So it is being said that the prophecy of the tree applies entirely to Nebuchadnezzar while only a small part would apply to the Kingdom of God. For the prophecy of the "seventy weeks" we did not need to break the prophecy to try to understand who was applied or if it applied to more than one person because the subject was clear and recognizable from the beginning. On the contrary, all the 7-day prophecy is built on a single verse that is what it says ... "The tree grew and became strong, and its same height finally reached the heavens and was visible to the end of the whole earth" (Daniel 4:11). Meanwhile, the writing says that the tree "becomes visible" to the end of the earth and not that "embraces the end of the earth" and the meaning is very different. The aforementioned book says: "the great tree represents the 'domain that reaches the end of the earth', which embraces the whole realm of mankind. Thus it symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, particularly in relation to the earth. - Daniel 4:17 ". "Reaching the end of the earth" means that it extends the domain to the end of the earth while "being visible to the end of the earth" means that it is known, famous. AnyhowÂ… is not it a bit fragile, let's say risky, to build a series of prophecies (all linked together) on this single explanation? Note that the specification "particularly in relation to the earth" is due to the fact that the universal sovereignty of Jehovah is, indeed, universal, for which the tree should have been seen not only in the whole earth but throughout the universe. By specifying, instead, "in relation to the earth", we can exclude the skies from the vision and take the application for good. Anyway, we should ask a question. Is the fact that the tree reaches the heavens or the end of the earth itÂ’s a demonstration or even an indication of the fact that we are talking about the Kingdom of God? We always leave the Bible to enlighten us. Notice what Jehovah told Ezekiel in reference to the Pharaoh. Ezekiel 31: 1-8 says Â… “In the 11th year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  “Son of man, say to Phar?aoh king of Egypt and to his hordes,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ‘Whom are you like in your greatness?  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  There was an As·syr?i·an, a cedar in Leb?a·non,With beautiful branches like a shady thicket, lofty in stature;Its top was among the clouds.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  The waters made it grow big, the deep springs of water caused it to grow high. Streams were all around where it was planted;Their channels watered all the trees of the field.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  That is why it grew taller than all the other trees of the field. Its boughs multiplied, and its branches grew longBecause of the abundant water in its streams.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  All the birds of the sky nested in its boughs,All the wild animals of the field gave birth under its branches,And all the populous nations were dwelling in its shade.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  It became majestic in beauty and in the length of its branches,For its roots went down into abundant waters.  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  No other cedars in the garden of GodHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. could compare to it. None of the juniper trees had boughs like it,And none of the plane trees could match its branches. No other tree in the garden of God could rival its beauty”. Do we note some similarities with the vision of Nebuchadnezzar? Both are compared to tall and mighty trees. Both reach high heights, up to the sky in fact the expressions "reach the heavens" or "reach the clouds" are equivalent - Compare Job 22:14; Isaiah 14:14; Daniel 7:13 Of both we notice the big difference with the other trees. Of both it is said that all the flying creatures and all the wild beasts find food and shelter. Now if we apply the principle that the tree that "reaches the clouds" must represent the Kingdom of God, then even the Egyptian empire should be an antitype of the Kingdom. Unfortunately, however, in this story there is no mention of the "times" and consequently it is not possible to count anything. If you think it's ridiculous that the Egyptian empire will represent the Kingdom of God, why should it be acceptable to the Babylonian empire? Jehovah goes on to say ““Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Because itHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. became so tall, lifting its top among the clouds, and its heart became arrogant because of its height, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  I will hand it over to the mighty ruler of the nations.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. He will surely act against it, and I will reject it for its wickedness”. The Pharaoh was exalted, just as Nebuchadnezzar did, and for this reason God decided to humiliate him - Matthew 23:12 Nebuchadnezzar escaped with seven years of madness while Pharaoh's empire was besieged. Also this verse remarks the fact that God takes away and gives "the kingdom to whom he wills" (and in this case He gave the kingdom of Pharaoh to the "despot of nations"). Ezekiel 31: 12-14 continues Â… “And foreigners, the most ruthless of the nations, will cut it down, and they will abandon it on the mountains, and its foliage will fall in all the valleys, and its branches will lie broken in all the streams of the land.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. All the peoples of the earth will depart from its shade and abandon it. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  All the birds of the sky will live on its fallen trunk, and all the wild animals of the field on its branches.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  This is so that no tree near the waters should grow so tall or lift up its top among the clouds and that no well-watered tree may reach up to them in height. For they will all be given over to death, to the land down below, along with the sons of mankind, who are going down into the pit.Â’. Even this tree is cut down and humiliated (Jehovah will do this through the king of Babylon). Because of the many similarities with the kingdom of Egypt, are we really certain that the tree that "reached the heavens" refers to the Kingdom of God?   When we talk about 1914, are we really like the Bereans? Or are we "Bereans" only when we have to refute the doctrines of Christianity?   There is another interesting detail that should make us reflect. The Bible compares the heavens to governments, be they human or celestial. Applying this concept to the tree that reaches the heavens and whose other trees do not stand comparison with it, it would simply mean that this tree has the kingdom over the other (smaller) kingdoms and of Babylon the Great is said to have " the kingdom over the kings of the earth "- Revelation 17:18 The only legitimate parallel that you can do with Babylon, without fear of taking corners, is related to Babylon the Great because it is the parallelism that makes the Bible. Indeed, all the world empires mentioned in the Scriptures had, for a time, the kingdom over the other kingdoms. Cyrus, in fact, said of himself ... "I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king, legitimate king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four extremities (of the earth), son of Cambyses (Ka-am -bu-zi-ia), great king, king of Anzan, nephew of Cyrus ,. . . descendant of Teispe,. . . of a family (that) has always reigned ". (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p.37). Undoubtedly humility was not a characteristic appreciated by the Persians as well as by the Babylonians but in fact the kingdom had power over the other known kingdoms (so to be called "king of the four ends of the earth") and so it could be said that its height had reached the heavens and was visible or known to the ends of the earth. In the story of Ezekiel and in that of Daniel there is no reference, just anyone, to the Kingdom of God, on the contrary ... both accounts mention a judgment from God on enemy nations, proud and violent. Any chronological calculation should respect the subject in being and in fact this part of the Scripture is very different from what is said about the "seventy weeks" - Daniel 9: 24-27 In the account of Daniel chapter 9, one speaks clearly of the Messiah (see Daniel 9:25) and it is not necessary to read what is not written. Anyone who wanted to be polemical could discuss the start date from which to count the "weeks" or even the adduct method * (one day for a year) but certainly we can not discuss the subject in existence (the Messiah). It could also be absurd to discuss who the Messiah really was (which Jews are still discussing) but certainly we can not argue that Daniel chapter 9 speaks of the arrival of the Messiah! Instead, Daniel chapter 4 speaks of Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom, while all the "understanding" concerning the Kingdom of God is built on four lines in the book "Pay attention to Daniel's prophecies!" That read: "But the great tree represents the domain that reaches the end of the earth, which embraces the entire kingdom of mankind. Thus it symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, particularly in relation to the earth. - Daniel 4:17 "(chapter 6, page 87 of the Italian edition of the book). Does not this seem like a very firm statement with a very weak base? Let us try not to tell Daniel 4:17 what he does not really say because it is enough to know the basic rules of grammar so as not to be distracted by the subject. The subject is Nebuchadnezzar and God makes him understand that, because of the fact that he is exalted, he would have taken away his kingdom and given it to whoever He had wanted (exactly as He did to Pharaoh). In practice the one who really rules is the Creator and the other kingdoms exist only because He allows it - Compare Romans 13: 1 So there is no reason to believe that the tree (that is, one of the many governments that Jehovah has permitted in the history of mankind), actually represents the Kingdom of God. If someone wants to imply that the fact that God mentions His dominion is indicative that the tree itself represents His dominion (and is an incredible semantic acrobatics) then we can take the story reported in 2 Kings 19: 14-19 and do it same reasoning. “Hez·e·ki?ah took the letters out of the hand of the messengers and read them. Hez·e·ki?ah then went up to the house of Jehovah and spread themHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. out before Jehovah.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And Hez·e·ki?ah began to prayHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. before Jehovah and say: “O Jehovah the God of Israel, sitting enthroned aboveHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. the cherubs,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. you alone are the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. You made the heavens and the earth. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Incline your ear, O Jehovah, and hear!Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Open your eyes,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. O Jehovah, and see! Hear the words that Sen·nach?er·ib has sent to taunt the living God. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  It is a fact, O Jehovah, that the kings of As·syr?i·a have devastated the nations and their lands.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And they have thrown their gods into the fire, because they were not godsHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. but the work of human hands,Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. wood and stone. That is why they could destroy them. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  But now, O Jehovah our God, please save us out of his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone are God, O Jehovah.” Hezekiah knew very well that Jehovah was "the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth" and he prayed that Sennacherib would be stopped in his intent to destroy Jerusalem. We know very well what was the answer of Isaiah which last part reads Â… “Because your rage against meHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and your roaring have reached my ears.Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. So I will put my hook in your nose and my bridleHello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. between your lips,And I will lead you back the way you came.” - 2 Kings 19:28 If we did the same reasoning as for chapter 4 of Daniel, then we might suppose that the "reign of Sennacherib" was also an antitype of the kingdom of God because he too had to learn (at his own expense) that Jehovah is "the true God of all. the kingdoms of the earth "or, in other words, "dominates over all mankind ". Unfortunately, even in this story there are no numbers, days, weeks or months to be calculated and therefore no reason to read "the coming of the kingdom of God" even where no mention is made of it. Is it possible that the strong desire to see the prophecies fulfill has influenced the intention and therefore pushed to read what was not actually written? This means that if you really want to see a second fulfillment of the story reported in Daniel chapter 4, you should respect the subject in being and that is Babylon. It is likely that the story of Daniel is simply telling the humiliation of Nebuchadnezzar and that the "seven times" mean only seven years but we can not be categorical. In this regard it is useful to reflect on the fact that even the humiliation of the Pharaoh, reported in Ezekiel, could have a second fulfillment as Jehovah says that he will "shake the nations" and this could be a reference to the Armageddon war.   So, without fixing ourselves too much with a specific date, in case the story of Daniel wanted to show us a second fulfillment of the prophecy, the report is actually saying: "Babylon will fall, will remain inactive for seven times and then rise again". This can only bring our mind back to the last mention that the Bible makes of Babylon - Revelation 17:5 The clues about Babylon the Great brought us to the nation of Israel so the question we should ask ourselves is ... "From what year we should start counting the 2520 years (ie 360 * 7) until we see the rebirth (if any) of Babylon? " From the story of Daniel the possible dates from which to count the seven times are two: 1) Since Nebuchadnezzar has had the vision or has fallen into "misfortune" (in fact, Daniel says "the tree is you" - Daniel 4: 20-22) 2) From the death of Nebuchadnezzar (if Nebuchadnezzar represents the kingdom of Babylon, his death is the moment when the tree is "knocked down" but it is to be noted that there is no reference to this in the narration of Daniel who, indeed, he says that the kingdom would be assured - Daniel 4:26) As far as the first hypothesis is concerned, it is impossible to have an accurate date because neither the Bible nor the secular history tells us in which year Nebuchadnezzar was expelled from his kingdom. This happened, obviously, after 597 a.E.V. (year in which Nebuchadnezzar brings the first Jewish prisoners to Babylon according to the secular date, there is a difference of 20 years with that of the slave who, in fact, puts 617 a.E.V.) and within 570 a.E.V. (if Nebuchadnezzar dies in 562 BCE - always according to the secular date - and the period of "captivity" lasts 7 years and the kingdom is returned to him presumed to have reigned for at least a year, 570 is the last useful year) . However in the first four chapters of Daniel we mention Daniel, Sadrac, Mesac and Abednego first as children (Daniel 1: 3, 4) and later as robust men (Daniel 3:12, 27) and all this before Nebuchadnezzar has the famous dream tree. This means that, from their deportation until the day when the king erected the image of gold, at least 15, 20 years passed. So if the Jews came to Babylon in 597 a.E.V. but they pass 20 years before the construction of the golden idol and having taken for good the secular date (562 a.E.V) it is possible to restrict the period from 577 a.E.V. up to 570 a.E.V. Obviously they are only estimates but the important date is the maximum time limit (570 a.E.V) so if from the deportation until the construction of the image had passed 15 years instead of 20, the starting date would be 582 a.E.V. but the last possible useful date would always be 570 a.E.V. The eventual rebirth of Babylon, if Daniel is talking about this, would have happened between 1943 E.V. (2520-577) and 1950 E.V. (2520-570). To reinforce this hypothesis there would also be the fact that the narration of his expulsion is the last story reported to Nebuchadnezzar. Few verses later, in fact, we no longer speak of him but of Baldassarre (Daniel chapter 5). It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that Nebuchadnezzar had the vision in the last years, perhaps during the last decade of his reign.   The second hypothesis concerns the death of Nebuchadnezzar, which takes place, according to the secular sources, in 562 a.E.V. According to the slave, in 582 a.E.V. (see the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" chapter 7, page 99). Counting 2520 years we arrive at 1958 E.V. in the first case and to 1938 E.V. in the second case.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "Babylon will fall, remain inactive for seven times and then rise again"   What does recent history tell us? If, as we have seen, Babylon the Great is the nation of Israel, this would corroborate the first hypothesis. The first hypothesis places the rebirth of Babylon between 1943 and 1950. Indeed, the "resurrection" of Israel took place in May 1948.   Knowing the fixation of human beings for dates and calculations, however, it is prudent to pay attention to the most important things. The secular dates can not be secure, based on findings and comparisons more or less incomplete, and certainly we can not base our faith on this - 2 Corinthians 5: 7 What would happen if the 597 a.E.V., as well as 607 or 537 or any other date on which we based much of the biblical prophecies (without there being a real reason for doing so) tomorrow proved to be completely wrong? The consequences could be very serious and not just from a human point of view - Amos 3: 1, 2 We must not take Jehovah's mercy for granted, so we must be cautious in our statements. Since we have no certainty that the "seven times" do not simply represent seven years, we should not lose ourselves in these speculations. Is not the most important thing to understand the identity of Babylon the Great? Those who have truly studied the Bible without preconceptions have understood that Babylon the Great is indeed Israel and this has understood it regardless of dates and calculations. This is a crucial aspect of prophecy because it is the clues that guide us in the subjects and times in which we are living, such as road signs, and not the calculations - Compare Matthew 24:32, 33 and 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 and do a contrast with Matthew 24:36 There is no temporal indication for the killing of the two clothed witnesses (see Revelation chapter 11) but we know that they are revealed at the end of the war. We know that the city called "Sodom and Egypt" is Babylon the Great, hence Israel, and as a result we also know which nation and events to watch carefully. That the Bible actually prophesises the year of his "resurrection" or not, is certainly interesting but not fundamental for those who believe that it is indeed the inspired Word of God. Fundamental, if anything, will be "get out of it" when the UN prepares to destroy it.   * However the Bible confirms the "one day for a year" method and also that this was the same method used by God's people - Ezekiel 4: 6; Luke 3:15 ** The Bible allows us to be "fully competent" then all the speeches made on 607 a.E.V. pro and contra, they are absolutely useless. Nebuchadnezzar's dream, as we have seen, has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God    
    • By Jack Ryan
      Watchtower has referred to Ptolemy's Canon as corroborating the accepted 539 BCE date, iirc, but otherwise pooh-pooh it as being unreliable.
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      The immense statue of Nebuchadnezzar's dream.
      Babylon comes from the north, according to what Ezekiel 26: 7 says (see also Jeremiah 46:10).
      Comparing Jeremiah 50: 9 with Isaiah 21: 2, 9 and Daniel 5:28 it is understood that the average Persian comes from the north.
      Reading Daniel 11: 3 understands that the "mighty king" is Alexander the Great, identified as the "king of the north".
      Reading Daniel 11:16, 20-22 it is understood that Rome is the next king of the north.
      If all the kings of the statue were "king of the north" ... the last king can be the Anglo-American empire, or the king of the south?

    • By TrueTomHarley
      They may no longer do anti-types at Bethel, having had too many blow up in their face, but that doesn't mean I don't do them. Ralph Kramden, the hefty loud-mouthed bus driver of the 'Honeymooners' TV show, is the antitypical Nebuchadnezzar.
      Each show he began by blustering. Each show he was totally humiliated. Each show he was contrite at the end. And each new show he totally forgot the lessons learned from the one before. So it is with Nebuchadnezzar.
      And what is it with Nebuchadnezzar and the magic-practicing priests? He picks a fight with them right out the gate in chapter 2 of Daniel:
      "Then the king said to them: “I have had a dream, and I am agitated because I want to know what I dreamed.” The Chaldeans replied to the king in the Aramaic language: “O king, may you live on forever. Relate the dream to your servants, and we will tell the interpretation.” The king answered the Chaldeans: “This is my final word: If you do not make the dream known to me, along with its interpretation, you will be dismembered, and your houses will be turned into public latrines."
      Why? What did they do? They are yanked out of bed to learn they must tell the king what his dream IS in addition to what it means? Now they will have to sit each in his house, without any arms or legs, and watch people come in to pee on their couch and poop on their carpet. There's bad blood between the king and them, somehow. How it came about is not described, but it hardly seems fair he should pick on them.
      Or does it? If the king made such demands, it is likely because he is fed up with their claims that they can do things like that. They are always playing him for a sucker with their air of religious mystery, and he has had it up to here. That's my guess, anyway.
      We're used to quoting Daniel 1:20 to show how, after a short trial period in which the Hebrew captives did little more than eat vegetables, the king found them "ten times better than all his magic practicing priests." We're used to saying it is because of God's blessing that Daniel was elevated so high. Probably so, but I'll bet it is more a reflection of how worthless he found the priests. It was a pretty low bar they set, and Daniel leapt it without fuss.
    • By PeterR
      So if this is the basis for your belief, then probably what you'll want to do is first of all find out which bible book your foundational scripture is in. (It's Exodus by the way.)
       
      Ex 1:6 - Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.
       
      It's not a complicated scripture.
      Let me ask you this. If you die in 2017 and all your brothers and all your generation also die at some point, what does "generation" mean if you don't impose any weirdness on the text? Do your precise birth and death times change the fundamental meaning of the word generation?
      Of course there are overlaps in a "generation". The only possible way for there not to be overlaps would be for each generation to have a batch of children be born at the same minute of a certain year, and die at a simultanous minute of a later year.
      But does your grandfather suddenly become part of your generation just because your life overlapped with him? Does that overlap of a few years between you and your brothers give latitude to distort the language to allow for President Kennedy to be of your generation even if your life overlapped with him?
       
       
       
       
    • By ComfortMyPeople
      An unexpected visit

      Characters: Angel (A) You (Y) Narrator (N)

      N- Imagine that an angel visits you today. He wakes you up in the middle of the night and says:

      A- Jehovah granted me choose one of his servants to inform Armageddon’s date, and I’ve chosen to you.

      Y- Wonderful! What a privileged man I am! When will it be?

      A- January 1, 2025. Now, I’m going to give further information about this date of capital importance

      Y- Errr, excuse me angel, thanks for this marvelous information, but my alarm clock is set at 5 AM, and I wish to sleep. Tomorrow I will have a hard day and I need to feel awake.

      A- What a lack of appreciation! If only I had known!

      N- The angel, sorrowful and turning its back on you, is ready to depart.

      Y- Please angel, don’t feel bad. It remains 8 years. I have no savings to live without my secular work. Next month my wife has a surgery, and also I need to ponder the education of my children. You aren’t going to think I take my children off from the school all these 8 years!

       A- I think if you were more spiritual…

      Y- One moment, I’ve just applied for the pioneer next month, and with my collaboration my wife is going to start the regular next September. What’s wrong with me!

      A- And what’re your plans for next holidays? Now you know for sure the Date! Would not you rather dedicate it to preach?

      N- The angel a little bitter, you a little worried.

      Y- Well… perhaps you’re right… one moment!

      A- Yes

      Y- The brothers at Bethel, missionaries and traveling overseers, do you think they are, in general, spirituals?

      A- Of course!

      Y- And don’t have they fully conscience of the closeness of the end?

      A- Yes, I think so

      Y- And, don’t they enjoy of their holidays these years?

      A- Well, I believe this, yes.

      Y- Look. If you only had said to me this date is, let’s say, is in a few months, perhaps I could have made some arrangements. But believe me, dear angel, I love Jehovah and I’m trying make my most every day, without any date in consideration.

      N- And they both say goodbye with affection

       

      Abraham’s example

      Some emphasis added: (Genesis 12:1-4) “And Jehovah said to A′bram: “Go out from your land and away from your relatives and from the house of your father to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, and you will become a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you.” 4 So A′bram went just as Jehovah had told him, and Lot went with him. A′bram was 75 years old when he left Ha′ran.”

      What would be your reaction if someone promises YOU all these things? Would it not be logical to expect the fulfillment of these words in your own life? Let’s continue with Abraham.

      Some emphasis added: (Genesis 13:14-18) “Jehovah said to A′bram, after Lot had separated from him: “Raise your eyes, please, and look from the place where you are, to the north and south, east and west, 15 because all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring as a lasting possession. 16 And I will make your offspring like the dust particles of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust particles of the earth, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Get up, travel through the length and breadth of the land, for to you I am going to give it.” 18 So A′bram continued to live in tents”

      Again, would it not be logical to suppose for Abraham to think he will receive these rewards during the span of his life?

      Now, some years after, about ten perhaps, these words happen.

      Again, emphasis added: (Genesis 15:13-16) “Then He said to A′bram: “Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years. 14 But I will judge the nation they will serve, and after that they will go out with many goods. 15 As for you, you will go to your forefathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 But they will return here in the fourth generation…”

      “What? What does this mean? It was assumed that I was going to get your promises in my life, and now, you’re going to say me that I’m going to die, and my reward is postponed until a very distant future, for some remote descendants.” Perhaps no one between us find this hypothetic answer odd or rare, but did Abraham felt deceived? Well, the rest of his life, very known for all of us offers a clear answer.

      Conclusion

      Did Abraham need date information to serve God with all his soul? No. Why? Because he simple loved God. And here I am, like all of you. Serving to Jehovah decades after our thoughts about when the end should come.  Because our main motivation is, simply, love.

      What I’m trying to say with the little story about the angel visiting at night and the account about some passages regarding Abraham’s life is the danger of getting quickly excited with some developments, in the world or in God’s people. When I listen to some brother saying something like “look at the news today… China, Middle East, etc., the end is near” I always answer, yes, you’re right, but I also thought to myself “the same I believed when I was a child.” These recursive ideas bother me, because always lead to disappointment. I try to share the attitude of Abraham, attempting to serve Jehovah till the end of my days with all my soul.

       

    • By JW Insider
      The October 1, 2011 Watchtower says this date is important for two reasons. 
      *** w11 10/1 p. 26 When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed?—Part One ***
      But why be interested in the actual date when Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar II razed the city of Jerusalem? First, because the event marked an important turning point in the history of God’s people. . . .
      Second, because knowing the actual year when this “ultimate catastrophe” began and understanding how the restoration of true worship in Jerusalem fulfilled a precise Bible prophecy will build your confidence in the reliability of God’s Word. So why do Jehovah’s Witnesses hold to a date that differs from widely accepted chronology by 20 years? [Emphasis added]
    • By Jesus.defender
      Yes....Watchtower 7/1879 page 8
      No.....Watchtower 6/1/52 page 338
      Yes....Watchtower 8/1/65, page 479
      No.....Watchtower 6/1/88, page 31
      Yes...Live Forever (old Ed.) page 179
      No....Live Forever (new Ed.) page 179
      Yes...Insight, vol. 2., page 985
      No...Revelation book, page 273.
       
    • By The Librarian
      Part of the series on:

      See attached images
      Anyone by chance have a PDF of these images combined? 
       
       
       
      See also:

       












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    • Eric Ouellet

      Bâtissons chaque but de notre vie avec amour
      L'homme à toujours chercher le sens véritable de l'amour. L'homme réfléchissant à cette vertu, il sépara cette qualité en trois phases et uni en une seule.  Les millénaires passèrent et l'homme à compris que les trois phases de l'amour sont des étapes que l'on ne peut trépasser.
      La première partie est appelé" L'Éros."
      L'éros fut le premier chemin que Dieu entama dans son Esprit ( pensée en action) (verbe) intérieur avant de faire ce monde magnifique que nous vivons. L'Éros est le feu qui nous anime dans le début d'une pensée qui nous traverse l'esprit.
      L'Amour éros est une énergie très puissante, car d'elle, d'une seule image non réalisée, l'éros active cette image en rêve, uni à notre pensée et propulse dans notre vision, un rêve ultime qui nous pousse à chercher au fond de nous, le sentiment qui nous anime puissamment.
      Nous recherchons en nous d'autres images pour connaitre d'avantage cette vibration qui se manifeste, telle un feu ardent.
      D'un rêve, l'amour de ce but te pousse à créer et fonder ce rêve dans ta réalité, construire le but ultime de ta vie.
      La flamme de Yah, s'anime en toi ( Chant de Salomon)
      Le désir sexuelle ne fait pas parti de cet Amour.
      L'Éros te propulse dans tout les côtés des variantes d'un but non réalisé, dont tu ne connais point comment construire ce but qui s'anime en toi; et même comment pourrais-je réaliser ce but?
      Quand le rêve d'un projet d'avenir est dans l'Éros, il ne faut pas qu'il devienne en nous une obsession intense. Nous ne savons pas comment contrôler notre feu intérieur de ce but, de cette vision qui anime nos pensées, jour après jour et souvent dans les images de notre sommeil, elles peuvent envahir nos nuits.
      L'amour " Éros" nous confrontes à plusieurs désirs qui nous anime et qu'avec le temps nous apprenons à assembler le casse tête de la réalisation de notre vie, les pièces maîtresses de notre rêve qui nous poussent sans cesse à trouver les outils et l'instructions nécessaires à notre cheminement qui s'accomplit pendant une grande période de notre vie, pour atteindre l'objectif premier de notre vie, le vrai but que nous voulons accomplir.
      Quand notre but est assemblé, telle un film intérieur, de sa première image (début), à son dénouement et cela jusqu'à son accomplissement , alors notre rêve se voit construit dans notre esprit alors nous sommes prêt; nous pouvons commencer la deuxième étapes de l'amour qui construit notre but.
      L'AMOUR PHILIA UNE ÉTAPE TRÈS IMPORTANTE DE L'AMOUR
      La connaissance de l'amour apporte à réaliser le rêve de notre but vers la réalisation de notre projet en ce monde au bonheur de chacun.
      Les étapes de réalisation de chaque but, doit être construit avec l'Amour philia à (suivre)...

      · 0 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      Pour guérir notre personnalité, une petite recette intérieure doit être préparé avec minutie et avec conviction, en voici la composition:
      En premier, prend le temps de prendre conscience de l'amour que tu t'attribues à toi même. L'amour désintéressé, celle qui te lie en toi le mérite vrai de la beauté intérieure, celle de la lumière qui vibre dans ton coeur. Cette amour doit être le fondement de ta personnalité, car plus tu consacres le temps nécessaire à épanouir tes forces et que tu perpétues cette puissance universelle envers autrui. Ainsi, tu t'élèveras au-dessus de la souffrance et Il te guidera vers le chemin de l'accomplissement de ta vie.
      En deuxième, prend le temps de travailler la qualité de la patience. La patience est une vertu primordiale à ta personnalité, car elle te fait comprendre les étapes de la vie et que pas à pas, une chose à la fois tu redresseras tes faiblesses. La patience te guidera vers la maîtrise des étapes à la victoire des buts, que tu entreprends. Cette vertu t'aidera à accepter les erreurs de ta personne et de celle des autres.
      Troisièmement, trouve en toi la joie de vivre. La joie est une petite qualité à quatre lettres. Elle se situe en toi, car chaque moment de ton quotidien elle se manifeste et elle vibre de tout ton être. Elle se manifeste, dans les moments où tu vois un coucher de soleil éblouissant, dans les activités avec tes amis qui te sont chère. Quand tu réussis un travail qui t'inspire et que tu réussis l'accomplissement avec brio. À plusieurs moment la joie se manifeste et tu dois prendre conscience de ces moments, car il font parti de la positivité de ta vie. Elle t'aide à oublier les épreuves que tu dois traverser.
      Quatrièmement, une clé primordiale doit être insérée en toi, celle de la confiance. La confiance est la synergie de l'amour désintéressé. Sans la confiance ton amour vacillera avec le temps. Bâtir la confiance est un travail acharné à ton travail personnel. Cette vertu t'aide à prendre conscience de tes mérites, de te rassurer que les actions que tu fais son juste et t'empêche de regarder constamment en arrière. La confiance te donnera la force d'avancer vers l'horizon de la lumière et croire en toi. 
      Cinquièmement, le courage, est le courant qui aide à te reprendre dans les moments difficiles où la vision de tes buts que tu entreprends devient très ardu. Il t'aide à ne pas baisser les bras dans les moments où tu ne vois plus la manière de franchir une étape, un examen de conscience qui illumine ta pensée à trouver une solution réfléchit et te dire, je vais être capable de réussir. Le courage est le deuxième souffle dans ta course vers le sommet de ta personnalité intérieure.
      Sixièmement, La force fait partie du courage, l'un ne va pas sans l'autre. Le courage est le souffle, l'oxygène qui activera ta force intérieure. La force t'aide à gravir les montagnes et même à certaine étape de ta vie à soulever les montagnes pour trouver les trésors qui y sont enfouis. La force te donne la chance à balayer les nuages de la tempête et de retrouver la chaleur du soleil du bonheur venant de Dieu.
      La septième étapes , la maîtrise de soi, une vertu qui est au sommet de ces étapes intérieures. La maîtrise de soi est l'étape ultime de ta vie  (les actions justes) car par cette vertue plus rien ne fera barrière dans le chemin que tu auras voulu suivre, car les épreuves que tu auras surmonté, te guidera à devenir maître de toi même et ne faire qu'un avec toi même, unis à Dieu et à son Roi.
      La maîtrise de soi te donnera un trésor inestimable qui est celui de l'harmonie. Équanimité ( équilibre parfait) dans tous les sens de ton âme. Tu trouveras la beauté ultime de chaques éléments de la vie, ta conscience sera dans ta pensée comme un métronome parfait; La vrai vie celle de nos rêves deviendra réalité, nous deviendrons un être de lumière. La lumière qui sommeillait en toi jaïllira de toute ta personne.
      Même dans la nuit des plus grandes tempêtes, tu seras un phare éblouissant de Dieu.
       
      SUIVRENT LES INSTRUCTIONS DE NOTRE DIEU JÉHOVAH NOUS MÈNE VERS LE VRAI BONHEUR CELUI DE LA VIE ÉTERNELLE.
      2 Timothée 3: 16-17, Proverbes chapitre 1-3,Galantes 5:22,23  1Corinthien 13: 4-(8 premier phrase)
       



      · 0 replies
    • LAWRENCE THOMAS  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      do you have the videos of the rejoice with jehovah's 2021
      · 1 reply
    • Annie Wade  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      can i please get the 20-21 circuit assembly make jehovah's heart rejoice
      · 1 reply
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