A "Conversation" about 1914 as it appeared in the Watchtower's "1914-2014 Anniversary Celebration" issues.

[JW Insider]

Under another recent topic, still actively ongoing, Anna brought up how most Witnesses don't study the issue for themselves and rely on articles such as the following one she mentioned.

On 12/26/2020 at 11:24 AM, Anna said:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20141001/gods-kingdom-prophecy-1/
. . . When one reads both part one and two it makes sense, (to me) so perhaps in another topic one could use these two articles and insert critiques? (In another color). 

I'll give it a try. Here's part one (in my next post). Anyone really interested should check the link on JW.ORG, because I will be skipping some of the less interesting dialogue between Cameron [JW Bible study conductor] and Jon [the person being studied with].

[Srecko Sostar]

Daniel didn't understand 1914 CE.

Jon don't understand 1914.

But Cameron are able to explain all with Bible. 

Did i said Bible? I meant, with WTJWorg publication. I must be dummy too:))

On what arguments Cameron based interpretation? Let see.

1. But now, in our time, we can understand them more fully.

2. So these prophecies would only be understood much later, during “the time of the end.” And as we will soon discuss in our Bible study, all evidence indicates that we are now living in that time period.

3. In a nutshell, this prophecy has two fulfillments.

 

I don’t think it’s as "convincing" today as it was when we were young and full of "Bible enthusiasm". First to mention is GB confession that their interpretations of the Bible are full of misconceptions , and that their interpretations came through wrong methods (beliefs clarified). So much about GB ability to understand.

Second, WW1 is best "proof" that WTJWorg have (after 1914 fiasco when they expected Armageddon in that year) evidence that humankind living in time of end. Despite Jesus' warning to not be mislead with, You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. 

Third, Type and Anti Type model or Second (Third) Fulfillment is claim without real foundation, and belong to "wrong methods". 

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Here's part one (in my next post)

I'll wait for this. But really! 

 

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Under another recent topic

This over 40 page to-ing and fro-ing so obscure and beyond the everyday experience of most that it just creates a gigantic yawn factor.

The Cameron and Jon chat, while admittedly cheesy, is so easy to follow. What are we saying here?

Nebu = Jehovah's representative rulership. 7 times interpreted as 2520 years = the time Gentile rule is uninterrupted by theocratic rule on earth. Starts with with Nebu &co dispensing with a divinely appointed dynasty of earthly kings. Duration= time, (disputed of course), of 2520 years, starting in 607BCE ending 1914CE. At this point, a Messianic king is restored in heaven (Jesus). Satan is ousted to be trapped on earth. That event is marked by a time of unprecedented disruption in earth's affairs (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev 6 etc,. supply your own verses). Conclusion? = Messianic kingdom restored in the heavens, Satan kicked out and kicks up fuss on earth. We here are in last days since then.

Explain an alternative view in one paragraph of 6 lines. I might be persuaded to consider.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

I'll wait for this. But really! 

No reason to wait on my particular view of it. It's really Anna's topic. I'd like to hear anyone else's view of it, too.

[TrueTomHarley]

48 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I'd like to hear anyone else's view of it, too.

 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I will be skipping some of the less interesting dialogue between Cameron [JW Bible study conductor] and Jon [the person being studied with].

Cameron and Jon would be crushed.

[Anna]

5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

starting in 607BCE

I think this happens to be the most disputable assumption in the whole discussion between Cameron and Jon. I actually had a study where the lady, a science teacher, wondered about that date, since no one else except the Witnesses recognized it.....at the time I was not familiar with the topic at all, since like everyone else I assumed that was the date. We had other topics to discuss first, so we never really got into it. She moved, and I lost touch with her. (Although I did pass her onto someone in the area she moved to). Evidently, Jon was not knowledgeable about any other dates and of course we cannot blame him since ancient history, especially something as specific as the razing of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, is not common knowledge.

I know we arrive at that date by counting 70 years back from 537, (Cyrus' 'restoration of the Jews to their homeland and the start of the rebuilding of the temple (I think)).

For some reason this does not seem good enough, and I am sure we will find out why in this thread. Stay tuned 😁

[Srecko Sostar]

If WTJWorg looks for parallel interpretation and making claim how "the dream" is illustration for God's Kingdom, than GB need to face the fact that they are actually claiming that God went mad at one point and was left without power over the Earth.

Cameron: That’s all right. The Bible shows that Nebuchadnezzar lost his sanity, evidently for seven years. During that time, he was unable to rule as king. But at the end of the seven times, Nebuchadnezzar regained his sanity and started ruling again. *

Jon: OK, I’m with you so far. But what does all of this have to do with God’s Kingdom and the year 1914?

Cameron: In a nutshell, this prophecy has two fulfillments. The first fulfillment happened when King Nebuchadnezzar’s rulership was interrupted. The second fulfillment involved an interruption of God’s rulership. So it is this second fulfillment that is related to God’s Kingdom.

Nebuchadnezzar = JHVH 

JHVH Kingdom stopped to be (World's) Ultimate Power in 607 BCE, because of .....,  caused by...., lets read how Cameron explained this: 

Cameron: In Bible times, the Israelite kings who ruled in Jerusalem were said to sit on “Jehovah’s throne.” * They represented God in governing his people. So the rulership of those kings  was really an expression of God’s rulership. In time, however, most of those kings became disobedient to God and most of their subjects followed suit. Because of the Israelites’ disobedience, God allowed them to be conquered by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. From that time on, no more kings represented Jehovah in Jerusalem. In that sense, then, God’s rulership was interrupted. Are you with me so far?

Kings in Jerusalem = JHVH, But they were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar = JHVH.

Disobedient Kings, Jerusalem = Disobedient JHVH conquered by Mad Nebuchadnezzar = Mad JHVH.

Are you still with Cameron so far? :))

Another thing is for massive consideration. If by any chance JHVH lost his power over Earth in 607 BCE than he also lost his power over Heaven too, because of same reason, and that is his "madness", what ever that could be.

If, by WTJWorg interpretations, JHVH regained his Power in 1914 CE, than question is; Who gave to Jesus Whole Power on Heaven and Earth in 33 CE ??? 

 

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, Anna said:

For some reason this does not seem good enough,

Is this an emotional issue? The question keeps getting raised, but never a concise answer appears.

[Ann O'Maly]

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Here's part one (in my next post). Anyone really interested should check the link on JW.ORG, because I will be skipping some of the less interesting dialogue between Cameron [JW Bible study conductor] and Jon [the person being studied with].

I can never read that dialogue with a straight face. 😆

[TrueTomHarley]

They’re not all that hot at writing dialogue, nor are the modern videos, despite clever film technique and historically accurate artifacts, ..um....well, they wouldn’t win the Best Picture Academy Award.

The brothers are in a bind. They don’t want to go beyond what’s written but what’s written is pretty sparse, so they compensate by staying thoroughly “safe” with the result of characters who appear to eat Bible sandwiches.

Counsel is generally laid on with a trowel. I was very pleased at the little quip in the Jonah video of he explaining to a traveler just what was his mission—not so much the line, but his facial expression afterwards, because it displayed a light touch not often seen. Let’s face it—not many of the brothers are actors. 

Lower your dramatic expectations just a little, and the Jonah and Hezekiah videos went tolerably well, with some fine moments.  I thought the Nehemiah video was a step backwards, and I had a hard time with the video of the Witness kid who leaves his happy construction-business home to take a job in the big city and immediately comes to ruin, because it fulfills every Witness stereotype to the tee.

Ah, well. They are what they are. They’re teaching videos for ones who like that means of learning—in short, most people. Do people in the greater world flock to the critically acclaimed movies? Nah. They like schlock, so don’t say it is an attribute just of the brothers. I just came across the factoid that Moby Dick pretty much sank Herman Melville’s career. It was too esoteric for anyone to get their heads around. He had been a well-liked author up that time, but afterwards he fell out of favor and didn’t resurface till much later with a few offerings like Billy Budd.

Besides, the brothers don’t want to go the Hollywood route in which you swoon over the sensitive performance of the leading man, only to learn later that in real life he is some lowlife narcissistic scumbag who beats his wife, snorts heroin, and beds every other man on the planet. 

Jehovah’s people are nothing if not upright and real.

[Anna]

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

10 hours ago, Anna said:

For some reason this does not seem good enough,

Is this an emotional issue?

I'm not sure if you are referring to me, or generally. I should have been clearer and said this does not seem good enough for some. It seems good enough to me. However, I am open to learning the viewpoint of those who think differently. This is why this topic was created, to hopefully get a:

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

concise answer

Although I do understand that a completely concise answer may not be possible because there are a number of intertwining factors involved, I am hoping that at the end of this discussion, every Tom, Dick, and Harry will be able to understand both sides of the coin.

[Anna]

21 hours ago, JW Insider said:

because I will be skipping some of the less interesting dialogue between Cameron [JW Bible study conductor] and Jon [the person being studied with].

I though the same, if only for the simple reason that it's irrelevant to the topic. I was wondering whether I should copy and paste here just the relevant portions so that people don't have to keep referring to the website. Although you probably already mean that you will paste the relevant section and then comment on that. I wish we could find some method that would keep things orderly....that probably won't happen, so perhaps towards the end when it seems that everything has been exhausted, one could have a summary...