A "Conversation" about 1914 as it appeared in the Watchtower's "1914-2014 Anniversary Celebration" issues.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But still you and others follow them. 

I was harsh, because the more I study it, the more I believe that one MUST use deception to keep any kind of "prophetic chronology" going. I see the way that F.W.Franz toyed with language to keep people hyped up about 1975. I see the way that Rutherford was using deceptive language to keep people hyped up about 1925. And then looking back at Miller and Barbour I see the same thing. I just read some of Harold Camping's predictions for May 21, 2011 and I see the same exact style. And, as I started to write up what I saw in the Jon & Cameron conversation, I saw some of the same.

This doesn't mean the deception is on purpose. We "inherit" our beliefs about chronology, just as Russell "inherited" them from Nelson Barbour. Just as I expect that you personally believed this material about 1914 when you were a Witness because you "inherited" it from your teachers, a combination of the person who studied with you, and the Watchtower publications, and from the platform, as it were. You weren't being purposely deceptive when you shared this with others. But you were using the same deceptive language, highlighting innuendos and skipping inconsistencies. It's just one of those traditions, in my opinion, that makes the word of God invalid. (I say this because this particular tradition does indeed invalidate the very counsel of the Scriptures.)

But that inherited tradition about chronology doesn't invalidate all the other teachings. It just means that we have to prove to ourselves and make sure of all things. It was the same principle Jesus taught his audience:

(Matthew 23:1-3) . . .Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: ² “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. ³ Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe,. . .

The Scribes and Pharisees were incorrect about several things, and yet Jesus could tell his audience to do and observe all the things they tell you. Jehovah reads hearts and judges us individually before the judgment seat.

 

[JW Insider]

27 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Are there any other biblical examples not tied to WT's interpretation of the 'seven times' that involve prophecies given after the beginning of their fulfillments? 

And I'm sure you had in mind, too, that Jesus said:

(Luke 21:24) 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

It's another bit of language manipulation, imo, to say that although Jesus said it would be in the future, that he actually meant it "will" start in the past.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

the more I study it, the more I believe that one MUST use deception to keep any kind of "prophetic chronology" going.

'deception' = Lies and deceit.  The Watchtower foundation is based on that and it continues along the same lines.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just as I expect that you personally believed this material about 1914 when you were a Witness because you "inherited" it from your teachers, a combination of the person who studied with you, and the Watchtower publications, and from the platform, as it were.

BUT, I was completely innocent as a Bible Student because i wasn't aware of how to study God's word properly.  However, the leaders of the Watchtower were NOT innocent because they had (or pretended to have) the Responsibility of being God's spokespersons here on Earth. 

This is why I could no longer preach or teach God's word to others, because I now know I have no true understanding of it. 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's just one of those traditions, in my opinion, that makes the word of God invalid. (I say this because this particular tradition does indeed invalidate the very counsel of the Scriptures.)

And this is where I say the scriptures are really only meant for the True Anointed. Because the True Anointed will not inherit deception. Only the True Anointed will be inspired of God's Holy Spirit so as to know truth from lies.

Otherwise, what will happen ?  Your Watchtower / JW Org, will advance from bad to worse with more deception and twisting of scripture. 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I see the way that F.W.Franz toyed with language to keep people hyped up about 1975. I see the way that Rutherford was using deceptive language to keep people hyped up about 1925. And then looking back at Miller and Barbour I see the same thing. I just read some of Harold Camping's predictions for May 21 2011 and I see the same exact style. And, as I started to write up what I saw in the Jon & Cameron conversation, I saw some of the same.

You can see hype and deception from beginning right up to our present time. what more is to be said 

[Ann O'Maly]

Yes, @JW Insider, I did have that in mind.🙂 

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Outta Here said:

The description in Daniel allows room for both views.

That was the point: that Daniel does NOT allow room for both views here. How could Jehovah be bringing a king low for his haughtiness and braggadocio, and it still makes sense that Jehovah was also bringing him low for his humble attitude and his being lowly in heart and disposition? There was not room for both views.

[JW Insider]

6 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Otherwise, what will happen ?  Your Watchtower / JW Org, will advance from bad to worse with more deception and twisting of scripture. 

Or, why not advance from several mistakes to less mistakes? We are not supposed to look for "True Anointed" because this would make us followers of men. Do you assume that Paul and Peter were "True Anointed"? If so, remember that persons in the Christian congregation were NOT supposed to follow them. Peter and Paul and others made serious mistakes. This is why the only "True Anointed" we follow is Jesus Christ.

[Srecko Sostar]

12 hours ago, Anna said:

Whether that is a reasonable conclusion or not I don't know. What might make it more convincing is if the Bible anywhere else uses something bad, to illustrate something good.  Anyone?

 

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think that you would have that much trouble finding various and sundry things in the Bible that could be rationalized as "bad" but ultimately represent something "good." More to the point, Cyrus and Nebuchadnezzar were both "tools" in Jehovah's hand as he allowed them to advance their beastly rule for their own motives, but their beastly motives served Jehovah's purpose at the time.

Let us dwell first on earthly activities. If someone wants to retaliate, execute a sentence, or simply evict someone from their homes, who will they use for the task? Will someone gather cattle breeders, farmers, tailors and musicians, give them a sword in their hands and say; Go and drive them all out or kill them if need be, all over there in that place because they are evil !?

It would be a poorly planned "punitive expedition." But if for this "bloody, rude, ruthless, and filthy work" you choose men who are skilled in arms, who are paid for slaughter, who obey every command without any remorse, then the task will be accomplished.

Let us now turn to Bible's visions of "punishments over the wicked." In the past as Bible described, God used his own worshipers and/or people of other nations and religions to carry out a massacre of “evil ones”. Sometimes angels were involved or miracles.

The prevailing view today is that God will no longer use his own people in enforcing his “court decisions,” but that someone else will do it for them, that is, the “warrior angels” . This “warrior angels” practice sword and war skills for millions of years, so to speak. They do everything JW members shouldn't. JW's are not even allowed to learn self-defense techniques, that's how far GB go in their instructions. But according to A. Morris they can rejoice at the death of an apostate aka ex-JW. This way they can at least somewhat indulge in "evil and primitive instincts" :))

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But this particular dream about a tree had created a special problem for Witnesses

I think, it was not this particular "dream" that caused problem, but ideas how that dream must be "prophecy for 1914".  

5 hours ago, Outta Here said:

So the purpose of Nebuchadnezzar's dream as a way of highlighting that no government, good or bad, can rule without Gods sanction

This can be very clear and sufficient explanation or lesson given to people. Let us put aside another problem on, why god allows bad governments to be long-lived.

[Srecko Sostar]

54 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Or, why not advance from several mistakes to less mistakes? We are not supposed to look for "True Anointed" because this would make us followers of men. Do you assume that Paul and Peter were "True Anointed"? If so, remember that persons in the Christian congregation were NOT supposed to follow them. Peter and Paul and others made serious mistakes. This is why the only "True Anointed" we follow is Jesus Christ.

Anointed or not, nobody is worth to be "followed" in this Organizational/Religious sense we speaking about, no matter where they or we are in this particular moment. GB and Elders, they seek to be obeyed. If you obey them than you in same moment "follow them". 

And they ask that from members although they give the wrong/err instructions and teachings. And (many or few times) they are aware that they are giving bad and wrong instructions. 

If we are not supposed to follow "Paul and Peter", why JW's looking on GB and Elders with exactly such undesirable mind and heart attitudes ?

[Anna]

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

And you expect people to seriously believe that those men were being guided by Almighty God through Jesus Christ ? 

Please stick to the topic, this is not the question in question. 

[TrueTomHarley]

Out of the blue someone tweeted a 15 minute video to me of someone challenging 1914, apparently just assuming I would drop everything to do it. He tweeted it three times in quick succession! Three times for emphasis? Three times for the Trinity? Three times to establish his digital ineptness? Who knows?

”Look, I think I know where this is going, and this fellow is a little dull,” I replied. Don’t you have something in print form that I can review in 1/10th the time? What is it with these yo-yos that think they can throw any clod your way and you will drop everything to analyze it?

I did not tell him, but will if he fires another salvo, that I do have something in print, and that it is not boiler-plate dull. There is some originality to it, and not just parroting what other ideologues have said. JWs may be the first to attach the spiritual significance to 1914 that they have, but they are certainly not the first to attach secular significance to it. There was a time when few people with historical consciousness did not. Thus my “1914 quotes collection”—a fine hobby for the student of history.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2010/01/the-1914-collection.html

But now people revise history at the drop of a pin. WWI rolled into WWII, but WWII did not roll into WWIII. Instead, it devolved into a constant stream of smaller atrocities so numerous that they have come to be accepted as standard fare and nothing to make a fuss over. Thus, the “facts on the ground” that @Outta Herespoke of get trampled into the ground. 

Granted, to undermine Jehovah’s Witnesses through attacking this teaching has become a cottage industry today—thus the dullard’s video sent to me. So? It is a cottage industry to attack them on a dozen unrelated points, and they are opposed, sometimes violently, in different parts of the world on these grounds that have nothing to do with each other. Surely, “if you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own, but because [Jesus] has called you out of this world, on this account the world hates you” covers it. 

Okay, I got it that we are out of sync with the majority scholastic view on this matter. So? We are out of sync with the majority scientific view on the origin of humankind, too. Must we all be like that sycophant Alan, who panics as soon as he learns he is out of sync with the “educated” world, and so promptly throws spiritual things overboard to toe the line with his new mommy? Anna DMed me his signature online article, and I didn’t read it, but later while looking for something else I came across it again and did read it. I was struck by how quickly he abandoned long-held beliefs to get into step with his new professors in college. You can see it in his unrelated matters of interest. It is very important to him to show himself smarter than others, and you don’t do that by taking a minority view. You take the majority view and then use the lofty credentials of your new friends  to bludgeon others. It is all about ego, as @Araunahas said of some.

Not to worry if you are out of sync with the mainstream Just wait for the next headline to proclaim: “Everything you thought you knew about [such-and-such] is wrong!” Things change, and one way to handle your “cognitive dissonance” is to say that you don’t have to know everything. Another is to say that you don’t have to know everything now.

You think it’s a piece of cake looking into the future? If they’re wrong about 1914, they’ll change it. They do it all the time and are very open about it, calling it tacking and the light getting brighter—the only ones who go apoplectic over it are the ones who already oppose them. Cite a place in which they seem to claim all-knowing authority, and I will say that they changed that, too. Look, they are the ones who are doing things, and few others (certainly regarding this 1914 topic) are doing anything—they just sit on their posteriors and work to sabotage the doers.

Besides, it is a Mark Twain “reports of my death are greatly exaggerated” type of thing. If it were wrong, definite proof of such will not manifest itself for a long time to come. In the meantime, maybe they are right. There is no sense in letting the “kingdom of God overtake you.” Why make a name for yourself ignoring the advice of Gamaliel?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Or, why not advance from several mistakes to less mistakes? We are not supposed to look for "True Anointed" because this would make us followers of men. Do you assume that Paul and Peter were "True Anointed"? If so, remember that persons in the Christian congregation were NOT supposed to follow them. Peter and Paul and others made serious mistakes. This is why the only "True Anointed" we follow is Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 8 :23 

This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue will tightly grasp the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ ”

Acts 2 :17

‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

But this of course refers to the True Anointed, as shown in the first scripture.

Now as for your "We are not supposed to look for "True Anointed" because this would make us followers of men."

You already follow MEN. Because you follow your GB and the Watchtower Society.  Even though you say they 'twist scripture' you continue to follow them. 

If you say you only follow Jesus Christ, maybe you could tell everyone HOW you follow Jesus Christ ???  

From my viewpoint we won't need to look for the True Anointed because by their works we will know them.  But look back at the works you describe of your previous leaders and you present GB. 

[Ann O'Maly]

13 hours ago, Anna said:

Just as an aside, does anyone know who first came up with an antitypical fulfillment of Neb's dream? 

There may have been seeds sown by Dispensationalists before him, but it can pretty much be traced back to John A. Brown's 2-volume work from 1823, Even-tide. There, he applied Dan. 4's 'seven times' to a period of 2,520 years where the Jews would be under the domination of 'four tyrannical monarchies' until their kingdom was restored in 1917. It's also important to note that Brown put the beginning of the time period to Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year in 604 BCE.

Link to relevant chapter.