Creation-Evolution-Creative Days-Age of the Earth-Humanoid Fossils-Great Flood

[AlanF]

7 hours ago, xero said:

I had a study years ago with this jewish astrophysicist. It was interesting, but one interesting observation he made (he did become a brother) was that evil is predictable because evil shuns free will. The more evil, the more predictable. Also from other writings I've read (C. S. Lewis) evil is also parasitic. It doesn't create, but owes its existence to parasitism. An evil person (who am I to judge), but and evil act is the business of getting at "the good" the wrong way. Atheists want what faith provides, but can't have it because it requires a specific path - one they've shunned. "I am the way, the truth, the life - no one comes to the father except through me" Jesus said, and all the truly good things require obedience to and recognition of Jehovah and his rules, laws, purposes. He's teaching us to benefit who? Us all.

Self-serving pop psychology with a large helping of brainless religiosity.

[AlanF]

6 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Wow, I didn't realize that you believe your Watchtower / JW Org / GB to be so Evil. 

The leadership of the Watchtower has for many years taken away the free will of it's congregants. 

One obvious way was the deliberate misuse of the Superior Authorities scripture, so that congregants had to obey the Org or be 'removed'.  

This is a quote from you xero from another topic. 

You know, that the core beliefs of JW's don't differ significantly from the bulk of other nontrinitarian religions except in ways which, quite frankly are conscience matters. This is a big issue in my world. Too many brothers want to override or supplant the consciences of others. If there is a defect, that would be it -

And again evil shuns free will.

Point proven.  Hence just one more reason I'm glad I left the JW / Watchtower dishonest, immoral, Organisation. 

I actually think it is your Org that has shunned this :-

 "I am the way, the truth, the life - no one comes to the father except through me" Jesus said,

What have your Leaders done ?  Refused to baptise people properly. Not using the scripture which says to baptise "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy spirit"

But telling people that have to be baptised into the JW org. Telling people that they have to be a baptised JW 'to be saved' at Armageddon. 

Indeed. Few organizations have more of the Orwellian spirit than the Watchtower religion.

[AlanF]

3 hours ago, xero said:

I think a lot of people who have left and a lot who have stayed have a lot in common. They haven't made the truth their own. Instead they either abdicate their free will to an organization or they blame an organization for their having left. In either case if the shoe fits is that "each one must carry his own load". Now you can't look at someone and know what box they fit into, but obsessive focus on the organization and the GB is, of course a clue. Supposedly we're supposed to be intently looking at and studying the perfecter of our faith - Jesus.

Elders aren't magical wise men, neither are members of any governing body. You can of course cherry pick and create whatever movie you want to play in your own head as the manner of your life and whether you're happy with it or not - still it's your own bed - you made it, you continue to make it and you must lie down in it.

Happy people will be happy, and unhappy people will be unhappy. As soon as people "stop kicking against the goads" and know that they are solely responsible for their own choices and the consequences which flow from these, they can begin really living. (as much as living can be living in this particular rendition)

You've committed another fallacy: allowing only two possibilities when many exist.

The Watchtower Society teaches many false things in God's name. Doing so makes the responsible ones in it false prophets. The Bible itself tells people to pay no attention to false prophets. 

And of course, the more fundamental problem is that the Bible God does not exist. Therefore anyone who claims to speak in his name is at best a charlatan. People don't like to be suckers.

[xero]

SS - I get it. I don't blame anyone for blaming either...On the other hand... Suppose someone had a marriage that went south and the guy was ranting to you about his ex-wife at a bar. You'd probably think "OK, I guess this guy had it bad....Then say a year goes by and you run into him again..."Say how's it goin!" and he launches into a rant about his ex-wife again. Maybe you let it go...maybe he's still dealing with something....Then two years later...same guy, same bar and guess what? Still ranting about his ex-wife....

You begin to think he's making a career of hating on his ex-wife.

Why doesn't he get a new one? Move on, do something?

To me it seems like there are a bumper crop of guys like this, ex-JW's who are making a career out of hating on the org, like that bar guy's hating on his ex-wife. Making a pioneer apostate thing out of it. Maybe even monetizing it all on youtube. Getting famous (at least in a minor cult celebrity way).

I'm sure most don't. If they felt that they were in a cult and got out, you'd think they wouldn't mention they'd been a JW. Trying to explain your drama to a non-JW that you "used to be in a cult" would be like saying "I used to be institutionalized, but trust me, I'm OK now." So I think that the loud ones have issues that probably started long before and I'll say this maybe they have relatives in and that's the issue - being shunned - that hurts and I do have some problems w/the way this is handled, which is why I don't stick my nose into other people's families - it's their family, their conscience, their responsibility and don't make it my business, is all I wish people would do.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 minutes ago, xero said:

You begin to think he's making a career of hating on his ex-wife.

There is always that psycho ex-mate who just cannot let go.

[xero]

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There is always that psycho ex-mate who just cannot let go.

That's true, which is why it's good to make sure that when you say "Till death do us part", that they know you really mean it.  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, xero said:

SS - I get it. I don't blame anyone for blaming either...On the other hand... Suppose someone had a marriage that went south and the guy was ranting to you about his ex-wife at a bar. You'd probably think "OK, I guess this guy had it bad....Then say a year goes by and you run into him again..."Say how's it goin!" and he launches into a rant about his ex-wife again. Maybe you let it go...maybe he's still dealing with something....Then two years later...same guy, same bar and guess what? Still ranting about his ex-wife....

You begin to think he's making a career of hating on his ex-wife.

Why doesn't he get a new one? Move on, do something?

I get it and agree.

4 hours ago, xero said:

I'm sure most don't. If they felt that they were in a cult and got out, you'd think they wouldn't mention they'd been a JW. Trying to explain your drama to a non-JW that you "used to be in a cult" would be like saying "I used to be institutionalized, but trust me, I'm OK now."

I believe (am sure) most non-JW's are not interested in JW or ex-JW experiences. Because they have "their life" and are not interested in some religious minority that has problems of this or that nature. It seems to me that there are very few newspaper articles about JW and their structure, at least about the public side of JW. Internal problems can rarely, if ever, be heard about. CSA experiences have only recently drawn attention to religions and thus to WTJWorg, too. WTJWorg cultivates introversion, closed culture inside organization, and only what is "public" is preaching service. Individuals are taught, by organization, to be secretive about internal things. But that is not nothing new, most institution, religious or non-religious working on same principles. So, WTJWorg is as any other "worldly" organization in this matter. Or to put it much more simply, it is in human nature (let dirty laundry stay inside home, ...especially if I personally smeared or contributed to it happening.  ).

Ex-JW's changed that picture by openly speaking about own and other members experience. Speaking about your experiences and problems in a public way can be part of “healing” from that part of your personal life, dissatisfaction, trauma, or disappointment. How long can or should it last? I do not know. But it is obviously not simple or easy. On the other hand, it may be the only way for the public to know what WTJWorg would never honestly and openly admit about itself and how GB runs the organization and what is “sold” under the “God and Truth” label.

4 hours ago, xero said:

So I think that the loud ones have issues that probably started long before and I'll say this maybe they have relatives in and that's the issue - being shunned - that hurts and I do have some problems w/the way this is handled, which is why I don't stick my nose into other people's families - it's their family, their conscience, their responsibility and don't make it my business, is all I wish people would do.

It can be. But i don't see as a problem. In the environment of the assembly, such an individual was under pressure from the environment, and he realized that speaking openly about something brings condemnation from the members. In this new environment (you tube and the like) he can say and try to defend his views, more or less successful. In comparison with previous, he was not allowed to do any of that in the assembly.

In fact, many of the current JWs here on the Forum are proof of what we are saying. Because if it weren't so, everyone "real JW" would be in "real preaching service", not here where they "outwit/bicker with the opposition" :)))

Stay well.

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, AlanF said:

The Watchtower Society teaches many false things in God's name. Doing so makes the responsible ones in it false prophets. The Bible itself tells people to pay no attention to false prophets. 

Most JW members have not yet realized this.

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Or to put it much more simply, it is in human nature (let dirty laundry stay inside home,

The reason there is an expression “skeletons in the closet” is that until very recently most people succeeded in keeping them there. Since it is “human nature,” I am not sure why humanists would think it is something bad that must be overcome.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWorg cultivates introversion, closed culture inside organization, and only what is "public" is preaching service. 

This is called being “no part of the world.” If it is wrong, then it is the Bible that is wrong, for that is what it consistently advises for Christians.

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ex-JW's changed that picture by openly speaking about own and other members experience. Speaking about your experiences and problems in a public way can be part of “healing” from that part of your personal life,

I agree with this. It is what it is. Anti-JW rhetoric is watered down by the fact that everyone is venting about something these days. The world is a swirling mass of discontent, and to think people are going to focus on just one aspect is wishful thinking on the part of ex-JW activists. 

Witnesses are used to presenting the gem of the truth through a facet of their choosing. Now, the internet makes possible for others to present it through a facet of their choosing. But it is the same gem. “The game is the same, it is just up on another level,” writes Bob Dylan. It is the theme verse of TrueTom vs the Apostates.

”The truth is such a beautiful thing. It’s a shame that Jehovah had to waste it on humans,” one cynical brother said (who is no longer a brother). Humans have their flaws and will taint anything they touch. It is true no less in Bible times than today. That is why I coined the expression: “The trick is not to sanitize the present. It is to desanitize the past.”

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

In fact, many of the current JWs here on the Forum are proof of what we are saying. Because if it weren't so, everyone "real JW" would be in "real preaching service", not here where they "outwit/bicker with the opposition"

I kind of like it when pure loons (and I don’t count you as one of them) or unhinged hate cases represent the JW opposition. Given that there are 8 million JWs and that this forum has worldwide reach, I think the handful that participate here is really tiny. And most of those who do visit quickly take note of the voracious opposition, and thereafter take their leave.

Still, I wouldn’t mind if we trained those inclined that way in how to use the internet, rather than be fearful of it & avoid it almost at all costs. I agree with counsel to avoid harmful association, yet everything is a matter of degree. If opponents mount a new offense through modern media, so be it. Learn to defend the truth from all attacks, not just the ones you prefer to address. One chapter of TT vs Apostates is of the Apostasy movie. Don’t go into conniptions that the fellow made it. Learn to provide an answer to it. And no, I haven’t seen it. I know the Witness backdrop as well as he:

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/01/the-movie-apostasy.html

Those with their eyes on the “real life” of 1 Timothy 6 will develop different viewpoints from those whose focus is exclusively on this life. There is no need to run from this. There is no need to pretend that there is not a downside to being focused on the real life. Admit it. There is. There is no need to pretend that unbalanced people will not have negative impact, but even if presented “properly,” the Bible way of life will be derided from those who choose only this life. So? It is still easily worth being focused on the real life. 

Let those whose focus is on this life make all the points they want. Anything to highlight the two courses God puts before all people today. Obviously there is an element of delayed gratification in choosing the “real life.” Acknowledge it and move on. There was a time when delayed gratification was seen as a virtue, not the roadblock to happiness that it is today. Force advocates of this life to tell their upside. There barely is one, other than for a few decades they might be free of “control.” In focusing on the petty freedoms that this world has to offer, they end up oblivious to the real ones that serving Jehovah offers.

[Arauna]

14 hours ago, AlanF said:

Few organizations have more of the Orwellian

Soon you will know what true Orwelian dystopia is - you who put your faith in human science, human philisophy and human governments. 

You use the word Orwelian lightly- without understanding what you are saying - you do not "know" all , even if you think you do.. You evaluate what we teach in a fleshly and materialistic / evolutionary way .......I can only feel sorry for you. 

[TrueTomHarley]

21 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You use the word Orwelian lightly

Everyone uses the word Orwellian today, it is the new insult.

It is the same as how verbal pugilists, upon failing to convince the other side, describe ones on that side as “arrogant.”

It is the same as how “cognitive dissonance” has become the new phrase of insult, as in, “Your cognitive dissonance must be massive to withstand the force of MY overpowering arguments.”

Blow it all off. It is just blowhards blowing hard, as they have always done.

On average, the people of this system of things are smarter than those of Jehovah’s Witnesses, better educated. Yet that advantages is squandered by their inability to get along, to yield, to work together for common good. Witnesses run rings around them in the practical deeds of their choosing, thus triggering taunts of Orwellian, arrogance, and cognitive dissonance. 

[xero]

Interestingly Tom pointed out a stat that's worth noting. It's usually a minority of people who make things change. Take soda. It's all kosher, not because the soda companies care about being kosher, per se, but they wanted a market.

https://www.sciencehistory.org/distillations/the-real-thing-how-coke-became-kosher

Then there's the Abilene Paradox

Agreement leading to discontent because no one is telling each other the truth about how they really think and feel about something, because they think the others are into it when they aren't, but they go along for the same reason. Everyone's miserable as a result.

If people would just say what they really thought, it would be different in a lot of cases.

Then the example of https://www.psychologistworld.com/influence/minority-influence

is also an example. People go along to shut people up w/their complaining because they don't care, or whatever's proposed doesn't affect them, or maybe they just don't think the effects will reach as far as them.

The overton window get's shifted in the same way.

 

Every group has an "overton window".