WATCHTOWER, 1991 - "HOW TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT RELIGION"

[xero]

1 minute ago, 4Jah2me said:

Really ? How strange. So, did your Baptism include the words I've highlighted in this scripture ?  "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,"  as Jesus instructed and recorded at, Matthew 28 :19.

I'm not sure how following this scripture is controversial.

BTW - I think the obsession some have w/the term 'anointed' and all the associated baggage is a distraction.

Yes, there are some who appear to be engaging in GB-Anointed worship, but that's their problem, not mine.

The scriptures tell me what to do, how to live and what to hope for and I try to live by these.

I could obsess about obesity in the congregation too if I wanted to. Let's say have people step on scales and if their BMI wasn't w/in a healthy weight, then they'd be disqualified from serving in any capacity.

But I don't.

I haven't been above teasing people at times, like when one brother asked me if I watched the game. I replied "No. I was probably praying or in the ministry."

There are always some who people imagine (or they themselves imagine of themselves) that they are "superfine apostles^" - 2 Cor. 11:5 There were in the 1st century and will be today the same issues.

I remember one bro who was "stumbled" when he moved to another state and on his return he said "the brothers there don't let me do anything!" (he was prominent locally before he moved - his illustrations are still in the pubs) - I said to him "What! You mean they won't let you go in FS??"

He got my point, but he wasn't amused.

In the congregation there are always going to be people who aren't happy and have to wrestle to see who's plumage is shinier than the next.

That's not me. I suppose if I were a Calvinist, I'd be more likely to embrace the "Doctrine of Total Depravity" ... Sounds cool doesn't it!
 

‘I Am A Depraved Wretch,’ Says Calvinist Smugly

BURLINGTON, VT—According to preordained sources, a 37-point Calvinist bravely and openly admitted his own depravity this week during a brutal intellectual beat-down of an ignorant atheist. Witnesses were shocked by the young man’s great honesty about his fallen condition, in addition to his luminous intellect and well-oiled beard.

 

“Listen, it’s written plainly in the Doctrine of Total Depravity,” he said. “I’m totally depraved. I’m a worthless sinner with no merit deserving of God’s grace...duh. If you deny that, it’s because God in his mercy has not yet chosen to awaken your spirit with the divine light of his unmerited favor. You are an enemy of God and you are completely repulsive to Him. I say this with gentleness and respect because I love you.”

As the Calvinist spoke through a thick cloud of the finest pipe tobacco smoke, sources say they detected a hint of smugness in his smile. The atheist detected the smug attitude and pointed it out.

"Point proved!" said the Calvinist. "I am a depraved sinner and my smugness proves that point!"

The hapless atheist replied, "I don't know... I don't feel like I'm really that bad of a person."

This was the moment the young Calvinist had been waiting for. He set down his pipe, looked at the poor deceived sinner through narrowed eyes, and with a wry smile, demolished the atheist’s puny argument once and for all. “...by what standard?” he said.

The atheist stood there dumbfounded with a dumb atheist look on his face. He knew he had been beaten and was left with no choice but to repent.

Sources in heaven say that thanks to this bold, brilliant Calvinist’s bold and brilliant witness, God decided to go ahead and choose the atheist for salvation before the foundation of the world.

[Witness]

21 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

God relented, changed his mind and his intention. What if JW preaching service will be faced with same sort of decision about "Armageddon" in the future? 

In 1975, people were commended for selling their houses and preparing for Armageddon to arrive within that year. Of course, their inclination based on numbers was wrong.   But after listening to the third part of the annual meeting, I believe “Armageddon” is a long way off in their eyes, and the GB prefer that way.  There are too many earthly projects they need to address and accomplish.  Besides, perhaps in the deep recesses of their minds, they don't want to face Christ.  Do they have the power to stall the coming judgment concerning their works and faith in an organization?  

How do they reckon with this statement that their organization has made:

"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization."   26 "Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities"   Wt 1990/11/1 p. 26

Most of the video concerned a new project that will take "years" to complete.  This was said with emphasis by A. Morris.  It was also emphasized to "pleeese support it according to your circumstances" by S. Lett.  So, there are many new projects  to support! (the Ramipo facility as well)

I'm amazed at their hypocritical speech; yes, according to them, the GT and Armageddon is imminent on the one hand, while this video production will take a very long time to produce...AND, as stated, will bring many into "Jehovah's organization".  It will be a series of videos on the gospels, entitled the "good news according to Jesus".  "Jehovah" is helping to make it happen - they already have evidence of that!  Do they know that the Mormon church has produced quality videos about the gospels already?  Was God instrumental in making those happen?  It only takes actors and money; and they're already training their up and coming stars now, while pleading for money at the same time.  

In the interim, the anointed spiritual "house" of God, is ignored, and trampled into silence to make room for a bigger, greater, "modern day idol."  (Dan 11:31; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 13:5-7)

“Is it a time for you yourselves to dwell in your houses that have been paneled while this house^[a] is desolate?”  Haggai 1:4

Footnote:  ^[a] "that is, the temple".  

(John 2:19-22; Matt 16:18; Isa 43:10-12; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19-20; Eph 2:20-22)

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, xero said:

That last post was as much a bit of self-analysis as it was of anyone else. I'm sure anyone who's been associated has gone through some dark moments.

Yes, of course. I think most who write here write for some other motive. It is certainly true of me.

1 hour ago, xero said:

So maybe you got bit, and maybe you got yourself bit unknowingly by poking your hand into some "hole" the advice not to return evil for evil (or even perceived evil) is good advice for anyone.

Sure. It could be I’ve been here too long. I’ve come to regard the forum as “mine”—indeed, some have thought it is—and here I ignore that good advise with impunity. I suppose that’s not good—it certainly is not according to our training. Alas, I’ve come to know the characters too well, or at least have become set in my view of the characters. I have to set my own terms for being here, because I think it is not right to earnestly discuss spiritual things with those who unequivocally hate the Christian organization. (not to imply that you have no problem with it, of course. I don’t think it. You’re doing what all faithful visitors do, what I did at one time.) But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.

Having said that, see how long it takes for that idiot 4Jah to get on your nerves. You can write a post about torture and he will attach a laughing emoji to it. He asks JWI about Santa Claus, for he is not sure himself, and JWI says there is no Santa Claus. Then he calls JWI a hypocrite for observing December. 

(Let the reader use discernment, but if he doesn’t want to, that’s okay too. Maybe I’ve been here too long.)

[xero]

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, of course. I think most who write here write for some other motive. It is certainly true of me.

Sure. It could be I’ve been here too long. I’ve come to regard the forum as “mine”—indeed, some have thought it is—and here I ignore that good advise with impunity. I suppose that’s not good—it certainly is not according to our training. Alas, I’ve come to know the characters too well, or at least have become set in my view of the characters. I have to set my own terms for being here, because I think it is not right to earnestly discuss spiritual things with those who unequivocally hate the Christian organization. (not to imply that you have no problem with it, of course. I don’t think it. You’re doing what all faithful visitors do, what I did at one time.) But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.

Having said that, see how long it takes for that idiot 4Jah to get on your nerves. You can write a post about torture and he will attach a laughing emoji to it. He asks JWI about Santa Claus, for he is not sure himself, and JWI says there is no Santa Claus. Then he calls JWI a hypocrite for observing December. 

(Let the reader use discernment, but if he doesn’t want to, that’s okay too. Maybe I’ve been here too long.)

You know what's funny, is that most of the people I've seen who were partakers were weird in some way or another.

We're told that their spirit tells them. We're not supposed to question it.

We do of course. We try to correlate their external behavior and appearance w/being 'anointed'

I have to say I don't know who is or isn't, but it doesn't matter. It's not as if someone's personal profession makes them any more knowledgeable or holy than anyone else in any given congregation.

I remember the 1st memorial I went to. There was all this fanfare and yet the talk was dull and we all had to be careful not to spill the wine and everyone's ears were listening quietly to see if they heard any crunching sounds. ("Psst! Did you see that! So and so partook!") Then we had to rush out so the next congregation could get in.

I thought it all pretty silly at the time and over the years if I saw anyone not one foot into the grave w/decades of service I thought "Huh". But I reconciled myself to the decisions others made as their problem (if any) and not mine.

Suppose someone professes to be of the anointed, should I change my behavior towards them? No. Defer to them when they present a scriptural argument that doesn't wash? No.

I have seen though that a lot of people have been looking at all this either waiting for them to die off, like they are the sands in the hourglass counting down to the end of this system.

Not that I blame them. Any more than I blame anyone. I do see, however in some the desire to be in charge, and I'm always suspicious of anyone who revels in telling others what to do and how to do it.

If I've gotten in any trouble w/fellow elders it's because I don't dunk on publishers when I could. So sister X is weird and partakes. So sister X has a lot of opinions. Hey, maybe she has something to say, maybe she's just feeling lonely and unremarkable and wants to feel remarkable. Fine.

One CO said when some bros complained about another bro that he didn't do things unless he got a lot of praise - "So praise him. No skin off your nose."

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

But after listening to the third part of the annual meeting, I believe “Armageddon” is a long way off in their eyes, and the GB prefer that way.  There are too many earthly projects they need to address and accomplish. 

You have nicely shown that the biblical text (about Armageddon) can be understood in a completely different way than the one offered by WTJWorg.

[Matthew9969]

When I think of a religion lying I think of a recent example of the fds and rank & file telling the public and under oath that they do not cut off and shun family members and in the same year come out with a video about the expected behavior of parents cutting off and shunning their own daughter. When a religion is willing to blatantly tell very obvious lie, they will be willing to lie about other things. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.

Having said that, see how long it takes for that idiot 4Jah to get on your nerves. You can write a post about torture and he will attach a laughing emoji to it. He asks JWI about Santa Claus, for he is not sure himself, and JWI says there is no Santa Claus. Then he calls JWI a hypocrite for observing December. 

Oh dear tom you are soooooooooo funny. 

quote But neither do I want to be seen as an attack dog.

But then you go on and attack me. And earlier you were attacking Witness. 

I honestly think you are frightened of the things I write. Just look how you try to belittle me. You know I speak truth and therefore you try to pretend that I'm an idiot. 

Keep trying tom, it just shows you up for what you are. 

[Anna]

22 hours ago, Witness said:

An untruth never becomes "brighter"

The untruth doesn't but understanding does. And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth. It happens all the time. As understanding progresses so does knowledge. It happens in science, technology medicine, relationships etc. People are imperfect, they make mistakes.
At the beginning of the pandemic we were told that wearing masks is not necessary because it does not really offer any protection. Now we are all told to wear masks because it was found that they do indeed offer protection. Was saying that masks were not necessary, a lie? Essentially it was, but it was said in good faith. Now, as knowledge has progressed, we know better.

You do not allow anyone to make mistakes. Thankfully, Jehovah does as is shown in countless Bible accounts, and that is what matters.

22 hours ago, Witness said:

I am thankful to God and Jesus Christ,  that I am no longer subservient to men

I am sorry that you were ever subservient to men first, and God and Christ second. 

[Witness]

6 hours ago, Anna said:

The untruth doesn't but understanding does. And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth. It happens all the time. As understanding progresses so does knowledge. It happens in science, technology medicine, relationships etc. People are imperfect, they make mistakes.

This answer really isn’t for you, since you are so stuck in your organization, and all the delight you experience because of it, that I doubt you will see any spiritual logic.(I so wish you could)  But, perhaps those who visit here, who are waking up, can relate.   Oh, I can always hope...that perhaps Anna, who sometimes walks precariously around Wt's doctrines, will some day take a side for the authentic "truth" in Christ.  (John 14:6)

As always, JWs compare themselves, their ”spirit-directed organization”, and its failures, to other organizations, religions, and now… “science, technology medicine, relationships etc.”!

When was the last time you  really read the Bible?  What did Jesus promise those chosen to be part of his Body, and who “remained” in him?

Matt 7:7; 18:19,20; John 14:12-14,26; 15:5; 16:23,24; 1 John 2:20-21  

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+7%3A7%3B+18%3A19%2C20%3B+John+14%3A12-14%2C26%3B+15%3A5%3B+16%3A23%2C24%3B+1+John+2%3A20-21&version=NIV

 

539 A.D.
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Dates, now worthless and dropped like rocks in a pond.  They were all “visions” of your leaders’ minds.  And you think God has turned a blind eye to your leaders misleading thousands with their theories?  You believe He is that flexible about unrighteous acts, which is another word for “ungodliness”?

“Therefore, this is what the Lord of Armies says concerning the prophets:

I am about to feed them wormwood
and give them poisoned water to drink,
for from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has spread throughout the land.

¹⁶ This is what the Lord of Armies says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are deluding you. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the Lord’s mouth. ¹⁷ They keep on saying to those who despise me, ‘The Lord has spoken: You will have peace.’ They have said to everyone who follows the stubbornness of his heart, ‘No harm will come to you.’” Jer 23:15-17

Is this why you love the organization in spite of its false teachings?  Do you believe that it is the haven of peace and security that it touts to be?  (1 Thess 5:3)

 

6 hours ago, Anna said:

You do not allow anyone to make mistakes. Thankfully, Jehovah does as is shown in countless Bible accounts, and that is what matters.

Like a brush ready to be dipped in the pot, “new light” is frequently held in the hand of your leaders. (Isa 44:20)  They apply this convenient coating over the “old light”, to sustain their position and their “tower” built with walls layered with “new light” reinforcement. (Gen 11:4; Isa 2:12-17)   It is only a coverup of what lies in their hearts. God reads each heart. (Luke 6:45)  You can see what God thinks in this one Bible account of the ancient practice of applying “new light”.  In this account, it is referred to as “whitewash”.   

 “‘Therefore, this is what the Lord God says: You have spoken falsely and had lying visions; that’s why you discover that I am against you. This is the declaration of the Lord God. ⁹ My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and speak lying divinations. They will not be present in the council of my people or be recorded in the register of the house of Israel, and they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord God.

¹⁰ “‘Since they have led my people astray by saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and since when a flimsy wall is being built, they plaster it with whitewash, ¹¹ therefore, tell those plastering it with whitewash that it will fall. Torrential rain will come, and I will send hailstones plunging^[a] down, and a whirlwind will be released. ¹² When the wall has fallen, will you not be asked, “Where’s the whitewash (“new light”) you plastered on it?”  Ezek 13:8-12

6 hours ago, Anna said:

I am sorry that you were ever subservient to men first, and God and Christ second. 

If JWs truly were not subservient to men, they would not be in the organization.  The elders, have immediate power to condemn anyone who may say, "I will only serve God and Christ", since these men expect immediate obedience.  And YOU are taught this. JWs will always be subservient to men only.  

Subservient: -“ prepared to obey others unquestioningly.”

“For example, Jehovah wants family members to obey the head of the family. (Col. 3:20) And he wants those in the congregation to obey the elders.” w21 February p. 17-18

Do I obey the elders in my congregation and also those who care for the worldwide congregation?’ w14/9/15 p 9-14

“How can we display our gratitude and esteem for the older men—elders, or overseers—in the congregation? ... Yes, we are to obey them and be submissive, to yield, to them.” w02 3/15 pp. 13-18

 

“Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.”  Gal 1:10

There doesn't appear to be any room to obey/please/win the approval of... men, according to this scripture.  (Rom 6:16)

 

Should We Obey Men?

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

And then the untruth is corrected and becomes truth.

I wouldn't agree with a setting like this, Anna. There are things, in both religion and science, that could be called dogmas. In earlier science, such as that of the Middle Ages, there were “scientific assumptions” completely contrary to today’s understanding and evidence. In one significant part, correct me if I am wrong, the former science was in the hands of religious systems that claimed to have knowledge of “divine” origin, and therefore that knowledge was “infallible”.

Today, we have a different science. It is beyond the reach of religion. Even contrary to religious teachings. It is based on a different approach, methods and insights. Therefore, we will not say that scientific discoveries are "false or true" as in religion, but that they are "correct or inaccurate", because new evidence can confirm or change previous conclusions.

It is different with religion. We always have the same basic premise, and that is, “All knowledge comes from God,” and he determines what is right and wrong, what is true and false.

In religious matters, teachings, and conclusions, people supposedly rely entirely on the Word of God, and therefore such conclusions and dogmas are "true," for God is a God of truth, not falsehood. A lie is a deliberate untruth. There is no room for error here because we accidentally made a mistake. Religious leaders do not introduce any teaching or instruction with words that warn the flock in advance of the possibility of future changes in doctrine or give room for possible errors in doctrines. No, no religion does that. Also, even GB in WTJWorg never distances itself in advance from the fact that everything they say may be wrong. The “truth” is always published in WTJWorg, according to their own claims in the literature.

Subsequent changes in the interpretation of previous interpretations are called “new light” which illuminates “old light”. No one in WTJWorg called “old light” a real name within religious i.e. biblical terminology: lie. If WTJWorg were a scientific organization, then they could talk about their teachings as “mistakes”. But WTJWorg is an expression of the Kingdom of God on Earth and declares itself to be the successor of the First Congregation of Jesus Christ. So, it is of a religious character. And in religion there are only two: truth or lie.

 

 

[Witness]

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

It is different with religion. We always have the same basic premise, and that is, “All knowledge comes from God,” and he determines what is right and wrong, what is true and false.

 

8 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

And in religion there are only two: truth or lie.

Your whole comment was nicely said.  Thank you!

14 hours ago, Anna said:

You do not allow anyone to make mistakes. Thankfully, Jehovah does as is shown in countless Bible accounts, and that is what matters.

It’s not my asking for perfection, it is the desire to know the God of Truth and His Son who is Truth.  It would be dishonoring to both of them, to accept the untruths - lies -  of men. The “new light” mentality, has nothing to do with the Word of God, but everything to do with the words of uninspired men who fail to receive understanding from Christ.   He promised it to those who remain with him. (John 15:5) How many years does it take for someone to realize their spiritual leaders are not receiving the correct understanding from Christ?

The unfolding of your words gives light;
    it gives understanding to the simple.”  Ps 119:130

How often has the organization backtracked in the "understanding” of their own doctrine? 

Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. ¹⁷ Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. ¹⁸ Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.”  John 7:16-18 

 Nothing false to be found in a man of truth. Can you say that about your leadership?  

 

[xero]

37 minutes ago, Witness said:

Nothing false to be found in a man of truth. Can you say that about your leadership?  

 

Yes. As Jesus Christ is my leader. (Of course I remember some elders questioning my methods once and when I showed the example Jesus set and how I was "following it closely" one said... yeah, but now you're tail-gaiting Jesus)