IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion

[TrueTomHarley]

14 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

but my point here is, whether the Elders should be informed before or after going for outside help, or should the Elders not be involved at all ? 

Doesn’t matter. If ones go straight to police with an allegation and police decide there is nothing to it, then no harm is done to anyone beyond some inconvenience & maybe false suspicion. 

If ones go straight to the police and an abuser is thrown into the hoosegow, no doubt elders will find out about it then. At that time, they can begin whatever spiritual role they will play. They’d have no reason to feel “left out of the loop,” and I don’t think they would.

[TrueTomHarley]

22 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

That's the problem with witnesses trying to chime in on a subject, they fully don't understand

This is probably true. But it is in the nature of social media. Nobody “fully understands” anything of which they speak. Maybe they should, but they rarely do. All communication is a give-and-take of trying to get a better grasp of things, searching out accuracy and evading the rocks that would rip open the boat’s bottom.

For the most part, this is understood going in. It is buyer beware. A fool believes every word. The shrewd ones weighs matters carefully.

Granted, few people do this. But the only solution is to become more shrewd oneself or pull the plug on social media Since the latter isn’t likely to happen, one can only aim for the former.

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If only CC could refrain from spewing battery acid on everyone--he really does have some valuable insights here.

 

11 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Wow! So am I, when his hypocrisy rebukes me and treats you nicely. But, I have to expect that from an unhinged ex-elder.

Sigh....

[xero]

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It depends upon what you define as “doing the right thing.” In the eyes of are determined critics, we still are not “doing the right thing” and will not until any so much as a hint of CSA allegation is immediately forwarded by elders to the police—effectively making them an arm of the state. It is not for elders to make any judgment as to credibility or severity. Send any allegation to police. 

We may think we have settled matters by making clear there is no stigma in affected or knowledgeable parties going to police with CSA allegations “unproven” or not.  But they will not think so.

Sometimes I think these matters of who is mandated to report and who is not would be best settled by extending it across the board. At present, clergy, or in our case those who parallel them in some respects, are called upon to “do the right thing.” Doctors also are called upon to “do the right thing.” Extend it to lawyers that they also must “do the right thing”—send any admission or suspicion of CSA straight to police—and the entire mandated structure of other parties might reverse.

So desperate is the world to stop CSA, so ineffectual are they at doing it, that the idea has been floated of make any person a mandated reporter.

Of course, in the eyes of our really determined critics, we will not be “doing the right thing” until we cease to exist. It is why I was so taken with Holly Folk’s frank caution: “If you are a past or present JW victim of CSA, be careful that you are not victimized anew by those who feign interest in your trauma so as to use you in their quest to take down a religion they dislike.

 

Making anyone a mandated reporter...just what we need, more Karen's bothering people because they are not happy if someone isn't as miserable as they are

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It doesn’t matter what the elders do or do not do. It doesn’t matter what they do or do not believe. A member has every right to go to the police and by doing so, they bring no reproach at all on the congregation.

Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010.

19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal

Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132

decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5.

According to what all of us know very well, facts are:

A) elders doing and not doing what GB say them

B) elders believe and not believe what GB say them 

BOE letters and changed editions of "Shepherd books" proves this!

The "theocratic culture" nurtured in the assemblies by the Corporation regarding “secular courts” did not allow what it allows today. 

[TrueTomHarley]

18 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010.

19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal

Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132

decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5.

I don’t know what you are smoking, but what you have underscored in no way contradicts my point and in no way validates yours. On the second portion I speak a bit less confidently, for I have no idea what point you are trying to make, nor even if you are making one beyond merely laying down words.

[Srecko Sostar]

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t know what you are smoking, but what you have underscored in no way contradicts my point and in no way validates yours. On the second portion I speak a bit less confidently, for I have no idea what point you are trying to make, nor even if you are making one beyond merely laying down words.

GB determines in what matters a "brother" may be sued. Does that mean you can sue him in things that GB didn't approve of, yet? Why does GB consider that it has the right to determine when it is allowed to go to secular court and when it is not allowed? What “biblical passages” support these human rules?

:)) smoking and inhaling, what is difference

[Arauna]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

Arauna I agree with so much of what you say...but as a people we shouldn’t have needed the ARC..to do the right thing....that’s what some are arguing here.

If you do not have the right secular laws in place to get a conviction then the secular system and reporting a crime  is useless. For example - police need psychologists to work with the under aged victims to take testimony .... so they are not traumatized by being cross-examined in court (second trauma).  If there is not a law for mandatory reporting then there is usually also no infrastructure / support system to determine guilt.  Psychologists can help determine this in very difficult cases. Even where these laws are in place it has transpired that the secular system does not follow through because of lack of infrastructure (qualified people). But now that these laws are in place they still blame those who worked with children for their lack of extra procedures - when they themselves lacked procedures... and still are retroactively shifting the blame.

The problem has always been the cases wherein it is difficult to prove guilt - one needs additional government support - and this was NOT available.

JWs were doing what they possibly could under the secular system that was in place. They put procedures in place and were ridiculed for it.  The government was shifting its responsibility to bring in good functional laws to handle these cases.  Instead it was left to organizations who worked with children to sort out.  Where there are children one will always find renegade people who will step out of line. Satan can get to anyone and any person who denies this is denying the scriptures in the bible which prove that Satan can get to any person - Judas walked with Christ and was a traitor to the trust put in him.

I feel the law is acting unjustly by retroactively blaming organizations when they themselves were to blame for the confusion in the first place. 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

GB determines in what matters a "brother" may be sued. Does that mean you can sue him in things that GB didn't approve of, yet? Why does GB consider that it has the right to determine when it is allowed to go to secular court and when it is not allowed? What “biblical passages” support these human rules?

:)) smoking and inhaling, what is difference

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

[Thinking]

6 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Well, your correct in one aspect while wrong in another. That's the problem with witnesses trying to chime in on a subject, they fully don't understand. This can also be a cultural thing. Then, those kinds of witnesses distort the narrative even more when they agree with an ex-wetness erred perceptions.

Well I was loath to chime in on this subject I admit ...and it probably would have been wiser to not say a thing..and yes I broke  my own rule over this.

Because it declines into a emotional school yard cat fight... but you also do not fully understand either Billy....NONE..of us here do...not really.

But I know first hand of certain issues here in Australia..I watched all of the ARC..talked with victims and elders...know  of certain    cases...intimately ..so can speak from experience...

The way they were handled by elders and the Branch directions of the time..and how victims were handled...and the frustrations of elders and the victims.

I listen to witnesses who have got things a bit wrong...sometimes a lot wrong...and a lot right .

I listen to Ex JWs who have got some things right and some things wrong...

It is not as simple or straightforward forward as so many believe....it is not black and white

I have distorted nothing...I am just more balanced over this subject .than you

Agreeing with anEx Jw on certain matters  does not make one their Alia..it’s just acknowledging a fact that may be correct in a certain issue at a certain time.

as far as chiming in..we have discussed this before me with you actually...and that didn’t end very well either....you told me you were not my brother...so as I said...I am loath to enter such a discussion..it goes round and round in circles with insults thrown at each other....and everyone becomes like rabid dogs biting at each other and thinking it is okay because it is a forum...and thinking Jehovah is going to accept such behaviour and excuse us of it.....and I include myself in this as well.

I wish you well CC..I’m not to sure who you are...as I’m not to sure who anyone is here ...

As far as a culture thing...Jehovah’s laws are laws...I once had a elder say to me over a very serious matter.....” well it’s not how Australians are”....

no I thought...but it is how Jehovah is......

I won’t reply on this matter again....but I stand by my words and will not back off from them even tho I will remain silent...

 

Witnesses are allowed to disagree with each other..we are not robots....it does not make us apostates...or idiots...just people with differing views ...which may change at any given time..and also may not change.

I don’t always agree with Toms view..nor he with mine...but what a great conversation we would have in a car group..

You yourself have distorted facts..as have certain ex JWs....it’s a mess all around and it’s so hard to find ANY one Who can have a balanced view over it.

I do not speak out ignorance ..but deal with facts..everything else is a waste of time and effort..

 

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Srecko, do you understand the word guideline?

Guidelines. Is this something that GB publishes (books, letters) and tells elders through seminars on how to proceed?

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Now, with this theocratic culture you speak of, that started with Christ

As far as I remember Christ did not participate in the "Judicial commissions/committees" of his time... 

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

are you suggesting the Watchtower NOT change policies to adapt to current secular laws? 

... and he told, give Caesar what belong to Caesar.

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Do, you believe, it's everyone's business, when secular authority doesn't even consider that? Do you, personally know what your local officials do every day, every hour of the day, every minute, every second? Now don't lie!

.........Would this be normal in your mind?

Why you ask me "silly" questions, on which you already know the answers?  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think your beef goes well beyond this or any other discussion and it is simply that there is a shepherding mechanism among JWs. Next it will be at shepherds themselves, next congregations themselves. Will it go all the way to a beef that there is a God himself?

Atheists "eat beef" without God. Believers "eat beef" with God.

Well, what then?