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IICSA: survivors speak of influence of religion


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... apparently not, as it IS up to God ...

I request that all upvotes that might otherwise go to CC, who disdains them, be bestowed upon me instead. I need all I can get to counter the deluge of downvotes from 4Jah. Never could there be

(Proverbs 26:17) Like someone grabbing hold of a dog’s ears Is the one passing by who [meddles in] a quarrel that is not his. I have had hundreds of very similar exchanges with Allen/Billy/Cesar

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9 hours ago, Anna said:

It is a private arrangement and agreement

Showing sexuality is a private matter between husband and wife, right? Then why are there GB regulations about it?

Things are not quite as they seem at first glance. WTJWorg has a great influence in family and private matters. And it does so as a Company, Organization, Institution.

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19 hours ago, Anna said:

As regards the ministry, that is a grey area because the ministry can be considered "church activity" this is especially the case when someone who is not the parent, assigns the child to work with someone else (Candace Conti).

It is not a grey area at all. The ministry is part of the JW 'church activity'. This is easily proven by what is happening right now. Letter writing instead of door to door work. This is instruction by your Leaders as is all ministry. NO grey area at all.

Now, what you say about children being the responsibility of the parents. This is where I say that ALL Pedophiles in ALL congregations should be made known to Everyone in the Congregation,(and outside really). Any proven act of abuse reported to Elders should be made known, naming the abuser but not naming the child. But it has been proven that Pedophiles have been hidden in congregations Earthwide, especially Elder pedophiles. So the congregation parents are not to blame for that. Remember that the KH is 'advertised' / spoken of, as being a safe place for families. JWs constantly invite 'new studies' to the KH, telling them what a wonderful and friendly place the KH is. From there JWs invite people into their own homes and on to ministry. It's a 'snowball' effect. More activities, more mixing with others. Therefore everyone should have ALL needed information about dangerous congregants including Elders.

Anna, just turn off the JW think for one moment, and look for truth about it all. Look into your heart not into the GB eyes. You know what has gone on in the JW Org. And there is no proof that it has stopped. Why ? Because the Elders still have control over the congregations. and we know what happens if people question the Elders, or if a person complains about being mistreated.  D/fed for causing a division in the congregation. Loss of all contact with everyone in the Org. 

 

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20 hours ago, Anna said:

The problem is you know just enough to get confused. You do not have all the facts nor knowledge,

And you know all the truthful details ???? So tell me why Australia had over 50 years records of Child Sexual Abuse and America GB Lawyers are saying they have 25 years Database. Whereas the Org / Watchtower started in America so should easily have more on record that Australia. Unless the GB are saying that Australia is more perverted than America. :) 

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6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Showing sexuality is a private matter between husband and wife, right? Then why are there GB regulations about it?

As you know, Jehovah's eyes see everything, whether in public or in private. When the GB "counseled" couples using principles in the Bible as to what isn't proper sexual conduct through WT articles and through the letters to elders,  they did so because individuals asked for guidance. Every Christian is and should be concerned about whether the way they are living (public or private) is pleasing to God. Some were not sure whether what they did with respect to sexula acts was proper. So they asked. They wrote letters to Bethel. I know personally of a case where a sister didn't agree with doing something that her husband wanted. So she took it to the elders (!) This was 30 years ago. The elders pulled out WT articles that addressed this "problem" and gave them to her for her husband. Today, as far as I know, the elders would rather not interfere with what goes on inside a bedroom. There is a WT article that came out some years after which  basically says that it is up to the conscience and mutual agreement of the couple with what they do inside their own bedroom. I will try and find that article. Or  someone else might find it...

The point is, had members not asked about private matters inside a bedroom, there probably would have been no articles writen about it. And like I said, because of the Christians concern about not offending Jehovah, they did ask about it. This is the problem with some people. We all have the Bible and our conscience, but for some this is not enough and they need "confirmation" from men. But I can see why that happens. As in the case of the sister I mentioned previously, she obviously didn't want to do what her husband wanted, so she went for backup, instead of figuring things out with her husband only. Some people are like that....

And this is why this happens:

6 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWorg has a great influence in family and private matters. And it does so as a Company, Organization, Institution.

A person can only be influenced if he allows it.

Paul said:  "Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by your faith that you are standing". (2 Corinthians 1:24)

 

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11 minutes ago, Anna said:

As you know, Jehovah's eyes see everything, whether in public or in private. When the GB "counseled" couples using principles in the Bible as to what isn't proper sexual conduct through WT articles and through the letters to elders,  they did so because individuals asked for guidance. Every Christian is and should be concerned about whether the way they are living (public or private) is pleasing to God. Some were not sure whether what they did with respect to sexula acts was proper. So they asked. They wrote letters to Bethel. I know personally of a case where a sister didn't agree with doing something that her husband wanted. So she took it to the elders (!) This was 30 years ago. The elders pulled out WT articles that addressed this "problem" and gave them to her for her husband. Today, as far as I know, the elders would rather not interfere with what goes on inside a bedroom. There is a WT article that came out some years after which  basically says that it is up to the conscience and mutual agreement of the couple with what they do inside their own bedroom. I will try and find that article. Or  someone else might find it...

The point is, had members not asked about private matters inside a bedroom, there probably would have been no articles writen about it. And like I said, because of the Christians concern about not offending Jehovah, they did ask about it. This is the problem with some people. We all have the Bible and our conscience, but for some this is not enough and they need "confirmation" from men. But I can see why that happens. As in the case of the sister I mentioned previously, she obviously didn't want to do what her husband wanted, so she went for backup, instead of figuring things out with her husband only. Some people are like that....

And this is why this happens:

A person can only be influenced if he allows it.

Opposers want to argue that the WTBS has full responsibility over individual conscience and its application. That's garbage as are the motives of those who suggest the same. These would Satanically deny humans free will and the consequent responsibility.

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9 minutes ago, Anna said:

As you know, .............

I agree with the explanation you gave, supported by life situations and the possible reasons why this is happening. So, I see this: People, members, seek guidance and help from those they think are “closer to God,” that they are “more spiritual,” that they “know more,” etc.

We need to ask ourselves how this situation comes about. Is it because of the existence of a "hierarchy", the doctrine that there are "classes" within the assembly. FDS class and non-FDS class. The clergy class and the lay class.
As much as WTJWorg declaratively denies the existence of such differences, it still exists in JW assemblies. Clergy "exist" to give support and answer to members of laity. That is how is in all religion, so why we would expect to be different in JW church?

On the other hand, those who give "answers" to layman's questions have created a climate in which it is "normal" for laymen to ask, and "normal" the clergy know the answers to everything. And clergy wants to know the answers to everything even when they don't really have an answer, even if they don't need to know the answer, nor if do they need to give an answer for what doesn't concern them.

Also, Bible don't speak about things that Watchtower's "our readers ask", study editions or BOE articles answering. Private opinions made by "spiritual men" have to stay private opinions ....not teachings and doctrines and instructions. :)

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3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

So tell me why Australia had over 50 years records of Child Sexual Abuse and America GB Lawyers are saying they have 25 years Database

Perhaps because Australian law says you have to keep 50 years of records, and American law says you only need to keep 25 years worth of records? I don't know. If you are so concerned about it why don't you do some proper research instead of just inventing theories of your own. I think I know what your reply will be; You can't be bothered to do research. (You would rather just read what is handed to you on a platter by opposers and stick to your own theories).

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I wonder why people bother answering some of these opposers when A. They are often atheists who have no business even referencing morality as there is no such thing  as morality w/o God B. They support abortion as well C. They hate the nuclear family D. They actually promote abuse of children w/transgender ideology

- Quite frankly they are full of it.

 

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1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

People, members, seek guidance and help from those they think are “closer to God,” that they are “more spiritual,” that they “know more,” etc.

We need to ask ourselves how this situation comes about. Is it because of the existence of a "hierarchy", the doctrine that there are "classes" within the assembly. FDS class and non-FDS class. The clergy class and the lay class.

Let’s face it, some people are more eager to look to others for guidance than others. This has been discussed on this forum before. If an individual feels that he is inferior spiritually to someone else and wants someone else’s “spiritual opinion and guidance” then that is up to them. On the other hand, if someone is confident in their own spirituality then they might feel they should not consult with anyone else. It works both ways. You cannot lump everyone in the congregation into the same category. I have known sisters who would practically not breathe unless they asked an elder if it was OK. And I have also known sisters who were able to figure out ambiguous situations by themselves using the Bible and Bible based publications, their own conscience, and common sense. So according to your theory about a hierarchy, this would not happen. Everyone would feel they had to go and seek advice. But as it is, some people are just too lazy to do research and find answers themselves. I think this has a lot to do with personality as well....

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

As much as WTJWorg declaratively denies the existence of such differences, it still exists in JW assemblies. Clergy "exist" to give support and answer to members of laity. That is how is in all religion, so why we would expect to be different in JW church?

On the other hand, those who give "answers" to layman's questions have created a climate in which it is "normal" for laymen to ask, and "normal" the clergy know the answers to everything. And clergy wants to know the answers to everything even when they don't really have an answer, even if they don't need to know the answer, nor if do they need to give an answer for what doesn't concern them.

Jesus himself set up older men to shepherd the congregation. The elders are there to be approached with concerns or questions if we wish.  If you are really interested in what the WT actually says on the subject of elders, read this article: https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/w20130115/skupstinski-starjesine/

 

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Also, Bible don't speak about things that Watchtower's "our readers ask", study editions or BOE articles answering. Private opinions made by "spiritual men" have to stay private opinions ....not teachings and doctrines and instructions

In all the “questions readers ask” I have never seen private opinions but rather reasoning on what the Bible says. If the subject is not directly mentioned in the Bible then Bible principles are discussed. I am sure it is the same with the BOE letters. You seem to keep forgetting that the WT’s main concern is that we do not go against Jehovah’s principles. Therefor the Bible is the guiding force. The question is always: what does the Bible have to say on the matter?  Everyone who has a Bible can check for themselves.

If someone wants to ask what does the GB say on the matter, then as long as what they have to say is based on the Bible, then that’s OK too. If we have a Bible, it is up to us to verify if what they say is based on it.

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48 minutes ago, Anna said:

Let’s face it, some people are more eager to look to others for guidance than others. This has been discussed on this forum before. If an individual feels that he is inferior spiritually to someone else and wants someone else’s “spiritual opinion and guidance” then that is up to them. On the other hand, if someone is confident in their own spirituality then they might feel they should not consult with anyone else. It works both ways. You cannot lump everyone in the congregation into the same category. I have known sisters who would practically not breathe unless they asked an elder if it was OK. And I have also known sisters who were able to figure out ambiguous situations by themselves using the Bible and Bible based publications, their own conscience, and common sense. So according to your theory about a hierarchy, this would not happen. Everyone would feel they had to go and seek advice. But as it is, some people are just too lazy to do research and find answers themselves. I think this has a lot to do with personality as well....

Good explanation, for sure. But please, don't forget that we are dealing with a religious system in which rank and file need to "know" who teachers and representatives are. That is, to express ourselves in WTJWorg jargon, who is the "channel" through which "all truth and knowledge" comes. ". In this "channel" members should have confidence, trust (statements from GB+Helpers members on JWTV and in publications). Also this channel is “the only one authorized by God and Jesus”, as JW's believe, to give lessons, interpretations and direction.

In this and such context we have to deal with your fine observation and explanation. :) 

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