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They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)


xero
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I was an atheist visiting the KH w/my gf who was studying, and I observed them for months and also went to a day of a district convention when it struck me what was most different about JW's was that their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group. This I contrasted with every other group I'd been with. To the extent the group grew in size, to that extent it became unruly and more badly behaved.

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Just to introduce another item into this consideration. It seems that the number 12 or its multiples in the Bible always appears as literal, never symbolic. Jacob's 12 sons (males) were exactly 12   The 12 tribes of Israel were actually 12, not 13   The Levitical priesthood was organized in a multiple of 12, namely 24 divisions (1Chr 24: 1-19)   The recruitment of assistants and officers who served David were organized in groups of 24,000 per month

I have wondered about that too, for the same reason. If the number was not literal, it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year. I would not be surprise if it was dropped one day....

This is correct. Russell never took the place of Christ before his Church. Christ was the Head of the Body, and Russell would never consider himself the "Head" of the Body of Christ. This doesn't mean that Russell would ever have admitted that any other person could be God's "mouthpiece." Russell only said this about himself, and no one else. Also Russell printed letters that addressed himself as "the faithful and wise servant." He printed no letters that identified anyone else as that "faithful

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At 51 years old, being born a jw and attending dozens of conventions and attending several different denomination over the past 30 years, I get what you are saying. Thus is why love the spiritual family I have now that is spread across different churches. 

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20 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

At 51 years old, being born a jw and attending dozens of conventions and attending several different denomination over the past 30 years, I get what you are saying. Thus is why love the spiritual family I have now that is spread across different churches. 

I don't fault other denominations for trying, but I think the mercenary nature of their clergy w/the emphasis on college over spiritual and scriptural qualities and the clergy/laity distinction where individuals can offload their moral responsibilities to others (yup, people in JW's try to pull that crap too at times and elders should NEVER reinforce that) but I just haven't seen anything like JW's anywhere.

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12 hours ago, xero said:

I was an atheist visiting the KH w/my gf who was studying, and I observed them for months and also went to a day of a district convention when it struck me what was most different about JW's was that their behavior improved to the extent that they got together as a group. This I contrasted with every other group I'd been with. To the extent the group grew in size, to that extent it became unruly and more badly behaved.

The Devil works in very clever ways. He does not always make people behave outwardly 'unruly / badly'. 

The Devil can, as we have proof, pretend to be an angel of light. 

But, you know, I know of Car enthusiasts that can work together as a group and organise huge meetings for all types of vehicles, and it all runs so smoothly. So what you are saying about JWs actually means nothing.

This is one of the things that is so funny about JWs.  All the talk about everyone outside that 'mighty' Org being wicked or behaving badly. It's all such stupid talk by JWs. And you have given an excellent example in your last sentance

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But, what group can keep doing it!? Not put on a show of love but live it, and even with imperfections,put up with one another with love? That love would identify this group above all others,we did not set the standard only do our very best to live up to it. And many tear us down for trying because they choose not to? Gather any one you want anybody and see after time what the results would be! I am a betting man, my money would be on the love,putting up based on TRYING not a sham but truly trying to live by that love!

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I've had arguments with myself and others about all of this. I am, by nature a supremely independent person who would never, ever want to lord anything over anyone or corral them in any way. I am also not particularly gregarious. I'm also quite critical of myself and everyone else on planet earth. I work with a Calvinist and when he mentioned to me the "Doctrine of Total Depravity",

    Hello guest!
I had to laugh and agree at the same time. So organizations and groups are not things I gravitate towards. It always seemed that groups trampled individuals. Yet how would we have a Bible, or have anything else even nominally known as Christian or even know of the history of the world (beyond vague forensic investigations) without people organizing themselves to worship God? I had to admit, that if everyone was like me it would never have happened. Fortunately enough people are not like me and these formed organizations. Fortunately there are a myriad of these from which we can look at and compare with regard to doctrine and also the broader consequences to the individuals and groups as a result of their adherence to these groups. Like the scripture said "whether in pretense or in truth, the Christ must be preached".

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1 hour ago, xero said:

If I'm wrong, name just one group that behaves better as it gets together in groups than Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't see this as true in any other denomination.

    Hello guest!

1 hour ago, John Houston said:

But, what group can keep doing it!? Not put on a show of love but live it, and even with imperfections,put up with one another with love?

I was raised as a Catholic and lived next door to a devout Mormon family, who were my extended family. I had basically two mothers, and learned from both.   I was guarded by their mutual love.  When I became a JW and my father died, I refused to attend his funeral in the Catholic Church.  My feelings were respected and my family's love for me never faded. 

While JWs reserve their love for each other, the Mormon Church reaches out into the community in massive ways.   Each religion, the Catholics, Mormons, Watchtower has its horrendous record of hidden child abuse; which proves that NO organization can boast that it is founded on love, no matter what it has accomplished. 

JWs instantly shut their brand of love off, when someone rejects the organization. For this, families are torn apart.   Is this love?  Victims of abuse are shunned for their outcry of injustice, committed by the elder body.  Is this love?  The organization’s lawyers fight to win court battles involving child abuse.  Is this love?  They don't stop once but keep at it, hoping to hold on to their riches.  This is so alien to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The anointed Body of Christ is admonished not to bond together under their Head Jesus Christ and show love for one another. (1 Cor 12:15-27)

WHO has the authority to regulate love?  The governing body?

The love shown by JWs as an organization, is regulated by rules coming from these men, and enforced by the elders. 

This is not true love.

17 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

The Devil works in very clever ways. He does not always make people behave outwardly 'unruly / badly'. 

The Devil can, as we have proof, pretend to be an angel of light. 

Yes he does.

17 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

outside that 'mighty' Org

The "mighty mountainlike organization" will fall.  The Temple/Zion/mountain of "living stones" that God established through His Son, will rise.  The anointed are bonding outside of this delusional mountain.(1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17)

"What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”

8 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.

10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone in the hand of Zerubbabel?”  Zech 4:7-1-10

    Hello guest!

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, xero said:

If I'm wrong, name just one group that behaves better as it gets together in groups than Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't see this as true in any other denomination.

Your earlier comment mentioned a 'group' of people, not a religion. and you said people in groups behaved badly.  I therefore gave you an example of a group of people that do not behave badly, which you obviously ignored. 

This later comment from you mentions firstly 'one group' but then 'any other denomination'. So which do you mean ?  We all know that this 'world' is generally ruled over by the Devil.  And we all know that the Devil has control of false religion.  BUT, @JW Insider  in his very balanced comment, has shown that JWs are no better than other religions in many ways.  So the Devil uses the GB and JW Org in a different way.  They are not outwardly violent. Oh but inwardly. Parents throwing their own teenage children out onto the streets. Parents forcing their children to do ministry and forcing them to get baptised into the Org. Congregants frightened to speak up on matters for fear of being D/fed. Anyone that chooses to leave the Org, totally ignored by even their closest family because of instruction form the Leaders of the Org. 

And this :-

9 hours ago, John Houston said:

But, what group can keep doing it!? Not put on a show of love but live it,

JWs do put on a show. And I was in that org long enough to see it. Even in congregations where there are plenty of Elders, the congregation is Controlled by only a couple of bullying Elders. The elders pick on people that they don't like, and sometimes it is young families that get bullied. And of course there is adultery and CSA in many congregations Earthwide.  But once in and baptised people are trapped. They know what happens if they complain, D/fed. 

8 hours ago, xero said:

It always seemed that groups trampled individuals.

Yes and it is so in the JW Org.  CSA, once again. Victims treated as collateral damage. Congregants being reproved whilst elders get off without council. 

 

8 hours ago, xero said:

Yet how would we have a Bible, or have anything else even nominally known as Christian or even know of the history of the world (beyond vague forensic investigations) without people organizing themselves to worship God?

Yes but that was done long before the Watchtower existed. It wasn't the JW Org that did it. 

8 hours ago, xero said:

Like the scripture said "whether in pretense or in truth, the Christ must be preached".

Yes Christ, and Almighty God, but not the GB, Watchtower or JW Org.   Have a good day. 

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Even an atheist recognizes the need for organization, however opposers who have lost their reason imagine that they would have knowledge of anything biblical w/o the organizations they carp and moan about. It's like they simply refuse to acknowledge Jesus when he's asked about uprooting the weeds, they want to uproot all of it. Jesus on the other hand said "knock it off, you presumptuous people, you have nothing to do with weeding, it's going to grow together until the harvest and the weeding won't be done by you and your mouth, it'll be done by angels".

So YOU as a professed Christian simply must choose an organization with which to associate. No you're not going to agree w/everything, but that's the deal.

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4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I therefore gave you an example of a group of people that do not behave badly,

You tried, but really this is comparing apples to oranges. When a group that shares a hobby gets together for a few hours or couple of days, sure it's all fun. But the real test comes when you remove that hobby, and that group has to get on with each other with love in normal day to day problems, despite cultural and personality differences, and not only that, but do this over months and years. Try that with your car enthusiasts. Loving cars, is not going to make you into a loving person.

It's all fun and games until someone loses a nut T - Shirt (⌐□_□) |  Inspirational words of wisdom, Inspirational words, Fun

 

Or it's never a problem if there isn't a problem.

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