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They're better as a group, than they are individually - (observations from the outside)


xero

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On 10/13/2021 at 8:09 AM, Witness said:

No, not in the same way God used Cyrus.  

“Thus says the Lord to His anointed,
To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—
To subdue nations before him
And loose the armor of kings,
To open before him the double doors,
So that the gates will not be shut:
2 ‘I will go before you
And make the crooked places straight;
I will break in pieces the gates of bronze
And cut the bars of iron.
I will give you the treasures of darkness
And hidden riches of secret places,
That you may know that I, the Lord,
Who call you by your name,

Am the God of Israel.  Isa 45

 

I swear, you simply have to be either asbergers or autistic because analogies appear to be impossible for you to understand.

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On 10/12/2021 at 3:10 PM, Matthew9969 said:

How can Jehovah use your organization when you admit you are not inspired by the holy spirit?

There is a difference, in the age of the Apostles, people were inspired, under inspiration, however, aft wards, there were people who weren't, but rather, they were, some, Spirit led Prophet who is clearly not inspired and not infallible, i.e. The students of Apostle John, namely Polycarp from the church at Smyrna, fits that descriptions, as is with all Christians afterwards. Should have been obvious from the fact there are multiple Bible translations with no original sources, but rather, copies.

That being said, no one here, even for centuries after the apostles, are inspired prophets, however, they can be used by God via the spirit.

On 10/12/2021 at 5:03 PM, xero said:

The same way he used Cyrus.

Perhaps because some automatically assume you, and the JWs to be inspired when compared to Cyrus and others similar to him, however, inspired or not, God has used people.

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7 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

for if God had not used people, you would not be having a Bible in hand,

What has been said is speculation. First of all; God’s finger wrote on the stone and gave the “10 Commandments of God” for Moses to read to the people. If God could write it down, He could have written the whole Bible, right? This would certainly reduce some of the mistakes that could still be made when writing by people. Also, God could, if He willed, make other models in copying and reproducing the original Scriptures, which would give a guarantee that the “Word of God” could not be circumvented.

But certainly, there are always and will be people who will believe in one or the other, and show confidence or distrust in previous records and the expertise of those who transcribed and translated the Bible into other languages. It happens on both sides. And from those who, reading some translations of the Bible, say they are poorly and incorrectly translated, to those who claim that only certain translations of the Bible are correct and true.

 

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42 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What has been said is speculation. First of all; God’s finger wrote on the stone and gave the “10 Commandments of God” for Moses to read to the people. If God could write it down, He could have written the whole Bible, right? This would certainly reduce some of the mistakes that could still be made when writing by people. Also, God could, if He willed, make other models in copying and reproducing the original Scriptures, which would give a guarantee that the “Word of God” could not be circumvented.

It isn't speculation, for there is history behind the Scriptures itself, mainly with what transpired 4th century and onwards. If God had not used people, there would not have been a debate on Christianity in the first place, nor will there be a fight, or bloodshed that came forth just for translating the Bible. We may not have any of the earliest sources and along with other words, they'd be destroyed burned, if anything.

Although there wouldn't be people crucified on stakes and burned alive, there would be strict enforcement of the Creed of what the people of the churches deem is true, and should you or me say anything otherwise, we can suffer consequence, perhaps have us recite their own Bible verse and pray as they will most likely kill or torment us.

In a sense, things would be Godless from the jump, after Apostle John died and on award. High chance that John's students or any of the Church Fathers would be able to write their word for they will all most likely be taken out by the opposition, since no link to the inspired prophets is found - practically a dark reality. Maybe be a field day for Freemasons, I bet.

42 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But certainly, there are always and will be people who will believe in one or the other, and show confidence or distrust in previous records and the expertise of those who transcribed and translated the Bible into other languages. It happens on both sides. And from those who, reading some translations of the Bible, say they are poorly and incorrectly translated, to those who claim that only certain translations of the Bible are correct and true.

You missed the point, if there were no inspired works that survives which enabled God to use non inspired prophets, the Bible would not be the one you have in your hand today. They would not have the earliest known sources to even translate the Bible, we would end up stuck with whatever those who assume Scripture, and the like.

There was a reason why there are people who risk their lives defending the truth about Christ, as well as translation, even dying for it. For one speaks the truth about an inspired prophet, he dies brutally yet the one who speaks false about an inspired prophet lives. You can easily see how bad that can turn out.

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15 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, no one here, even for centuries after the apostles, are inspired prophets, however, they can be used by God via the spirit.

  Zechariah 8: 22 & 23

And many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to beg for the favor of Jehovah.’23  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.” " 

Was this a one time happening, or is it prophecy ?  If it is prophecy then the JEW must be Spiritual and not just one person. And if God is with the JEW = Spiritual Jews = Anointed, then are those Anointed inspired or just guided by God ?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Acts 2 : 17 & 18

17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

We know this was fulfilled at that time as mentioned in Acts, but is it still a prophecy for our time ? 

It says 'in the Last Days', and we are lving in the Last Days.  

It says God will 'pour out some of His spirit'. Is that to inspire or to guide those mentioned ? 

Surely they would need to be inspired to be able to prophesy ?  The scripture must mean TRUE prophecy so it would need TRUE inspiration. But when ? 

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Just now, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

  Zechariah 8: 22 & 23

And many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to beg for the favor of Jehovah.’23  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.” " 

Was this a one time happening, or is it prophecy ?  If it is prophecy then the JEW must be Spiritual and not just one person. And if God is with the JEW = Spiritual Jews = Anointed, then are those Anointed inspired or just guided by God ?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Acts 2 : 17 & 18

17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

We know this was fulfilled at that time as mentioned in Acts, but is it still a prophecy for our time ? 

It says 'in the Last Days', and we are lving in the Last Days.  

It says God will 'pour out some of His spirit'. Is that to inspire or to guide those mentioned ? 

Surely they would need to be inspired to be able to prophesy ?  The scripture must mean TRUE prophecy so it would need TRUE inspiration. But when ? 

Prophesying is simply telling forth God's mind on a matter. Every time you say something is wrong or right and say here's what the Bible, God's Word says, you're prophesying. In my opinion the scriptures don't restrict being a "Jew" on the inside is something restricted to some people who think of themselves as being anointed or not, but allowing one's self to be "circumcised" and "led" by God's word and spirit. Of course these latter are individual claims the judge of which is Jesus as he has been appointed as judge to determine the truth of the matter. It's up to each individual to "work out his own faith with fear and trembling". Being a busybody in the business of others is the business of the presumptuous. If you think someone is wrong about something, don't listen to them. If you think a group is off track and some other group has it better, then go join up w/them. Don't think you can go it alone w/o becoming a caricature of your own individual defects, however because that's what becomes of the isolationist. It's good for you to stick around w/people w/whom you are not in complete agreement. How do you suppose Iron can sharpen Iron w/o friction?

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39 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Zechariah 8: 22 & 23

And many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to beg for the favor of Jehovah.’23  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.” " 

Was this a one time happening, or is it prophecy ?  If it is prophecy then the JEW must be Spiritual and not just one person. And if God is with the JEW = Spiritual Jews = Anointed, then are those Anointed inspired or just guided by God ?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Acts 2 : 17 & 18

17  ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, 18  and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

This was prior. The statement still stands unless you can name one person who is chosen with the ability to have visions. That being said, those chosen, after John, are not inspired prophets who can speak in tongues, have visions, etc. Not even John's students.

40 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

We know this was fulfilled at that time as mentioned in Acts, but is it still a prophecy for our time ? 

In regards to Joel’s prophecy, the Apostle Peter, who is an inspired Prophet, under inspiration spoke of this. Joel’s prophecy was fulfilled when Holy Spirit, the gift of God, was poured out at Pentecost to the Jews and Gentiles, which leads us to the statement made by Paul concerning the Last Days of the End Times, indicating that such has begun to take course, evidently leading to God's Day, Judgement Day (Acts 2:20). What he said also equates to the fact that the Jews were living in the last days of the End Times in correlation with worship to the True God.


For them at the time, they had the ability to have various dreams and visions, for these are the very things provided by followers of the Christ of which God gave the spirit to, empowering them to have said abilities. Today, Christians are primarily spirit led, born again, as is with their chosen counterparts.


That being said, Polycarp, being a student of John would have had visions despite John's death, things may have transpired differently, but unfortunately that was not the case, although he was a man of God himself.

There are several key difference between a Christian/follower of God who is an inspired prophet vs one who is a prophet not inspired, equating traits is that both are followers of the Christ, profess to the True God, etc.

Prophecy is still intact, but you have to remember of which these gifts of the spirit are directed to and what gifts are provided, I doubt any of us here would, suddenly drop to the ground and burst into light and begin to transfigure, have visions.

52 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It says 'in the Last Days', and we are lving in the Last Days.  

He was talking about the beginning of the Last Days itself to those who was talking to, and how it transpired from there. Those Christians at the time, had said abelites prior to the death of the last Apostle. For if that continued, perhaps the events of the 4th century may not take place, let alone the actions of church fathers.

53 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It says God will 'pour out some of His spirit'. Is that to inspire or to guide those mentioned ? 

Which he did at Pentecost 33, as mentioned in the whole chapter of Acts 2; before that, Jesus speaking about the promise from God his Father.

54 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Surely they would need to be inspired to be able to prophesy ? 

Yes - again, a time before the death of the last Apostle. Everything after his death is vastly different, however, the gift of the spirit operates by those who are spirit led, despite not having the abilities of Apostles and Prophets of old.

56 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The scripture must mean TRUE prophecy so it would need TRUE inspiration.

God's inspired word informs us of the End Times, and the prophecies are being fulfilled, some already fulfilled, like that of the events of Jerusalem.

 

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2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

If God had not used people, there would not have been a debate on Christianity in the first place, nor will there be a fight, or bloodshed that came forth just for translating the Bible.

To me, this sounds like God would need people to destroy each other for the sake of the Bible, translations and interpretations. 

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

You missed the point, if there were no inspired works* that survives which enabled God to use non inspired prophets*, the Bible would not be the one you have in your hand today.

* red text highlighted by me

I am not sure how to understand this. Who are "non inspired prophets" who have made "inspired works"?

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

There was a reason why there are people who risk their lives defending the truth about Christ, as well as translation, even dying for it.

The reasons why someone dies for the “truth of Christ” need to be learned from the person himself. JW, Catholics, Protestants, etc. suffer for their version of truth about Christ.

This is the first time I have heard that someone is dying today because of a (specific or any) translation of the Bible. Maybe there are people who have a Bible, and the state forbids them to have one. But then I would say that ultimately these people suffer because they don’t want to renounce God from the Bible, not because of the book itself which is made of paper. If they are hiding the Bible from the authorities and risking their lives for it, then they should ask themselves what is worth more: The book or their life?

Certainly, I agree that one should be true to his principles and pay the price for it. But where to go, how far, with the principles. Well, the Bible itself says that it is "better to be a living dog than a dead lion." However one wants to interpret this saying. And it can be interpreted in many ways, right?

Do people die because of the "truth", for the "truth" or because of/for their "belonging to something"?

But you will agree that preference should be given to life and not death. 

Because, if a man has sinned while he is alive, he can repent and start again. And when he surrenders to death because he thinks that with his death he will please God, then that is debatable. Because, he died for his vision of the truth about God. And the question is, was that true at all. At this JW club, it is constantly proven that “truth” is changing within this religious community. I don’t know how it is with other religions and how often they change their interpretations and dogmas. Perhaps you have some information and can make comparison with JW.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

To me, this sounds like God would need people to destroy each other for the sake of the Bible, translations and interpretations. 

Actually no because if God has no one to take action, the people would be the ones to commit to bloodshed. Like I said, after John died, if there were no one to take action at all, non existent, this would be the case, resulting in the latter not having to group at Asia Minor for the Councils and the people will come to the conclusion of who or what God is and make a decree. Abide by them or face death, so essentially Theodosius II like mentally for centuries to come after that.

You got it backwards, I suggest you look at the history of those who translated knowing the risks of the Catholic Church and those connected to them.

55 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

* red text highlighted by me

I am not sure how to understand this. Who are "non inspired prophets" who have made "inspired works"?

This was explained to both you and Witness who spun the narrative of what the difference is of an inspired prophet and a prophet not inspired.

That being said, the originally written works of Scripture were written by all inspired prophets.

58 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The reasons why someone dies for the “truth of Christ” need to be learned from the person himself. JW, Catholics, Protestants, etc. suffer for their version of truth about Christ.

You continue to miss the point again, if God didn't have anyone after John's death, known of John's students, no church fathers, etc. The truth of the Christ would be determined by the latter, and no one will ever know the truth at all, i.e. I doubt original copies would exist either because they'll be destroyed by the latter, who will burn all written work and or kill the person who has access to said copies, if need be. This is from an historical stand point regarding Scripture in a scenario where no one came forth to commit to the task of translation of said truth.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is the first time I have heard that someone is dying today because of a (specific or any) translation of the Bible.

Weren't you a former JW? You should know why there are many translations, examples of the type of punishment below:

The Bloody History of Bible Translators - Los Angeles Review of Books

image.jpeg

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Maybe there are people who have a Bible, and the state forbids them to have one. But then I would say that ultimately these people suffer because they don’t want to renounce God from the Bible, not because of the book itself which is made of paper. If they are hiding the Bible from the authorities and risking their lives for it, then they should ask themselves what is worth more: The book or their life?

A bit of that, but more so on translations as well. It was extremely risky, essentially, a death sentence, more so, if you speak anything different than the church power's themselves, i.e. Saint Bob's Gospel of John is different from Saint Srecko's, therefore, Saint Bob attest to the church to deal with you, it was that bad.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Certainly, I agree that one should be true to his principles and pay the price for it. But where to go, how far, with the principles. Well, the Bible itself says that it is "better to be a living dog than a dead lion." However one wants to interpret this saying. And it can be interpreted in many ways, right?

Yes, however, the discussion is if God has no one after John, there would be one translation no doubt and one faith, and the truth of God and his Christ will most likely be lost forever, should the latter destroy all surviving works.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Do people die because of the "truth", for the "truth" or because of/for their "belonging to something"?

Yes they do, even infiltrated and torn from the inside. Tyndale was betrayed.

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Because, if a man has sinned while he is alive, he can repent and start again. And when he surrenders to death because he thinks that with his death he will please God, then that is debatable. Because, he died for his vision of the truth about God. And the question is, was that true at all. At this JW club, it is constantly proven that “truth” is changing within this religious community. I don’t know how it is with other religions and how often they change their interpretations and dogmas. Perhaps you have some information and can make comparison with JW.

Srecko, as stated, if there is literally no one after John, JWs, Baptist, Reformationist, even Unitarians, will be the least of your worries. Perhaps people would have been forced to take up the Templar Shield, so to speak, and should they drop it, the end result is torment and death.

That being said, something along the lines of a long term Spanish Inquisition-like type situation. Let's say if that was indeed the reality, both you, and I would have to commit, if broken away we will be put into Hellfire, so to speak.

Again, a possibly dark reality, something of which because of God's action, we won't have to see unless someone decides to make a movie, write a book, create a game, etc about it. And should a small instance of it does occur, it is dealt with.

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On 10/15/2021 at 6:31 AM, xero said:

I swear, you simply have to be either asbergers or autistic because analogies appear to be impossible for you to understand.

No, they are not impossible to understand, it’s just that you chose the wrong analogy.  GB member A. Morris once said that as the apostles had set decrees, so too, does the governing body.  They have set their own analogy, in the manner of the apostles.  But since these teach an earthly organization can be “inspired”, (“spirit-directed organization”), (Rev 13:15)   while they personally are not, truthfully they are false apostles.  “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.” 2 Cor 11:13

Since they pass doctrine and forecast dates of Armageddon and the coming Kingdom, they set their own analogy as prophets.  But since these doctrines and predictions fail, they are truthfully, false prophets.Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.”  Matt 24:11

Since they only, among all anointed, take on the role of dispensing spiritual food, they have set their own analogy as the “faithful and discreet slave”, teachers solely in charge of providing “fruit”/sustenance for the house of God.  But since their teachings do not last, but rot, they are in essence, false teachers.  “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.”  2 Pet 2:1  “So then, you will recognize them by their fruit.”  Matt 7:20

Putting themselves ahead of all Christ’s brothers and sisters, has set their own analogy as already deemed the “faithful and discreet slave”, but since they silence the anointed by telling them to obey the exalted elder body(2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2), which prevents them from acting as the priest/teachers God appointed them to be - offering their daily sacrifice as they should (Dan 8:11,12) – this GB is truthfully, the evil slave of Matt 24:48-51.  “The kings (elders) of the Gentiles rule over their subjects, and those in authority over them (over the Gentile elders) are called ‘friends of the people.’(GB)  But that’s not the way it will be with you. Instead, the greatest among you must become like a person of lower status and the leader like a servant.”  Luke 22:25-26

These men set their own analogy by stating they are servants of Christ – "anointed" ones  following the path Jesus set before us.   But since they “kill” their own brothers and sisters who cannot accept their false teachings (Rev 13:11,12,15), they are truthfully, false “christs”.  “False christs and false prophets will appear, and they will offer signs and wonders in order to deceive, if possible, those whom God has chosen.”  Mark 13:22 

There are many analogies to make concerning the GB, but Cyrus is not one of them.

 

 

 

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