Conscience individual and collective

[TrueTomHarley]

10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

you do have a bunch of believers here that do accept the kind of dodo you dish out.

Doodoo. The word is doodoo.

Dodo is the bird name that I have reserved for 4Jah,

[TrueTomHarley]

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Leaders of a Jehovah's Witnesses church '

You dodo, you are repeating an incendiary media headline. 

We can depend upon it to be stated as inflammatory as they know how, for that is how the press operates when they get ahold of something juicy. 

Nonetheless, just for the sake of argument, let us assume that everything was exactly as stated.

Do you know how many “hanging judges” were in the American West, with their counterparts even today? Do you know how many judges are incompetent even now? Do you know how many trial verdicts are reversed upon appeal because the judge did something wrong?

Any time or any place you put humans in the mix you will get errors, even shocking ones. Maybe that is the case here. In any assemblage of several million people, you will find many examples of anything.

Pray to God for his direct handling of your issues and he will say he has underlings to handle your problem. Complain to him that the underlings are imperfect and he will observe that you are no great shakes yourself. 

[Srecko Sostar]

Theoretical considerations [ edit | edit code ]

In the very history of the problem of conscience we find various theories that we can reduce to four basic types:

• Conscience is understood as participation in the Divine (Christian tradition, especially in Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther )
• Conscience in the function of the autonomous mind ( Kant )
• Conscience as a product of social-educational determination ( Locke )
• Conscience is the result of moral conflict ( Freud )

Perhaps we need to learn more about these aspects for further discussion. Some idea, please.

[xero]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Theoretical considerations [ edit | edit code ]

In the very history of the problem of conscience we find various theories that we can reduce to four basic types:

• Conscience is understood as participation in the Divine (Christian tradition, especially in Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther )
• Conscience in the function of the autonomous mind ( Kant )
• Conscience as a product of social-educational determination ( Locke )
• Conscience is the result of moral conflict ( Freud )

Perhaps we need to learn more about these aspects for further discussion. Some idea, please.

Well, like I said. I'm reading this paper.

https://rts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Libery-of-Conscience.pdf

[xero]

Musing more.

The more I consider Hebrews and the counsel given, it's hard to imagine that anyone could be considered a faithful Christian or a faithful organization if these failed to either submit to organizational authority (implying an argument that in extrabiblical matters the individual has a responsibility to be obedient insofar as the commands/counsel are not in opposition to clear scriptural dictates) or failed to apply discipline to individual members.

As much as I look about, this is certainly an earmark of what I'd expect of a true religion - that the religion would expect and enforce biblical standards and principles.

 

[Witness]

53 minutes ago, xero said:

As much as I look about, this is certainly an earmark of what I'd expect of a true religion - that the religion would expect and enforce biblical standards and principles.

That leaves out the Wt organization, which continually fights for their worldly rights; who cannot accept a court's decision in the case of child abuse, but must bulldoze their way back into court, to preserve their riches.  As far as religious organizations go, they are as worldly as the worst of them.  

"Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." James 1:27

James 2:1-17; Exod 22:22; James 4:4-10

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 3/27/2021 at 2:12 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Pray to God for his direct handling of your issues and he will say he has underlings to handle your problem. Complain to him that the underlings are imperfect and he will observe that you are no great shakes yourself

You condemn my laughing emojis, BUT, you try to turn serious issues into laughable subjects, in which case you are much worse than I. 

But what you comment proved (although not intentionally) is that God has no interest in the Watchtower or JW Org.  For if God through Christ were to control your wicked orgs, then things would be done properly and those orgs (plural) would be clean and trustworthy. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

15 hours ago, xero said:

Well, like I said. I'm reading this paper.

https://rts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Libery-of-Conscience.pdf

Do you seriously need to read that stuff to know about your own conscience ?  Or is it just as a matter of something to read ? Are you trying to justify something ? 

Update :

Having read the first 6 pages i can see where it is coming from and i can see that you will thoroughly enjoy it . You may even try to use it as an excuse for the dictatorship by your GB, down through the ranks and the Elders.  

The first 6 pages deliberately uses a bad example of a wicked man pretending that his church / elders are picking on him. This is the type of example that JWs use on this forum. The difference being that JWs blame innocent people for wrongdoing if those innocent people decide to leave the wicked JW Org. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, xero said:

Musing more.

The more I consider Hebrews and the counsel given, it's hard to imagine that anyone could be considered a faithful Christian or a faithful organization if these failed to either submit to organizational authority (implying an argument that in extrabiblical matters the individual has a responsibility to be obedient insofar as the commands/counsel are not in opposition to clear scriptural dictates) or failed to apply discipline to individual members.

As much as I look about, this is certainly an earmark of what I'd expect of a true religion - that the religion would expect and enforce biblical standards and principles.

 

This is interesting because my 26 year old son and i were having a conversation about the Law or Moses / Nation of Israel

( I will start a separate topic of the conversation above )

Let us get one thing clear. The NATION OF ISRAEL had LAW.   If you were born into, or, if you became part of, the NATION OF ISRAEL, you were under that LAW. 

However, CHRISTIANS are NOT under LAW.  Christians should live by BIBLE PRINCIPLES, which would be governed by a BIBLE trained CONSCIENCE. 

So xero's comment above smells badly of the Devil's work. Xero is trying, but failing, to prove the need of a dictatorship organisation.  

Once again xero links two completely separate things,  (quote) " a faithful Christian or a faithful organization".  Those things are miles apart. 

Quote " if these failed to either submit to organizational authority".  = dictatorship.

Quote "an earmark of what I'd expect of a true religion - that the religion would expect and enforce biblical standards and principles." 

The Watchtower and multiple JW orgs do not have "biblical standards and principles."  but they do enforce man made rules. 

If you want to go back to the Nation of Israel then your GB / ranks / Elders bind up heavy loads and put those loads on the shoulders of congregants, but those in 'control' do not help to ease any load. Pharisees. 

[xero]

4Jah - You're clearly confusing your emotions w/a functioning conscience. Don't burn incense to your inner light. You don't know if the light that in you is darkness or light unless you subject it to the true light of scripture. The true light of scripture makes it clear (unless you reject Hebrews among other books) that God has and uses organization, that he delegates authority to humans in these organizations and that one must be submissive and obedient to those taking the lead. It doesn't say you'll like it. In fact the scriptures suggest the opposite. Discipline isn't fun, but it's useful.

Your job is to determine which organization you are going to be submissive to. You can't go it alone. Not scripturally.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

12 hours ago, xero said:

4Jah - You're clearly confusing your emotions w/a functioning conscience. Don't burn incense to your inner light. You don't know if the light that in you is darkness or light unless you subject it to the true light of scripture. The true light of scripture makes it clear (unless you reject Hebrews among other books) that God has and uses organization, that he delegates authority to humans in these organizations and that one must be submissive and obedient to those taking the lead. It doesn't say you'll like it. In fact the scriptures suggest the opposite. Discipline isn't fun, but it's useful.

Your job is to determine which organization you are going to be submissive to. You can't go it alone. Not scripturally.

Spoken like a true Ex Elder xero.  Keep trying and you may convince yourself that you are right. 

My conscience was functioning very well when I 'resigned' from JW Org. The 'light of scripture' tells me that the Watchtower / GB / JW Org, are all serving the Devil right now.  I say serving the Devil because the Org teaches that no one can sit on the fence. An Elder keeps phoning my wife and telling her that. So, as the GB / Orgs are not serving God properly, they must be serving the Devil.

I don't reject any Bible book, I just know that most of the Hebrew is history that was important to the Jews, but Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E. and that proved God's rejection of the Nation of Israel, and Christians live by Christ's teachings and the writings of the Apostles which were inspired by God's Holy spirit. 

You keep PRETENDING that organisation is the same as AN Organisation.  People can be organised without being AN Organisation.  You do know that RUSSELL, the very man that started the Watchtower, said people do NOT need and Organiton. 

I think the Pope says that God delegates authority to him.  Your GB also pretend that God delegates authority to them.  .   Saying it does not prove it to be true. 

You love to 'tell me' that i can't go it alone. But in scripture many people have been lone humans. Some of the prophets had to go it alone and had to run for their lives when their whole nation was against them. 

I am wise enough not to permanently close any doors. But right now NO Organisation is serving God properly and i will not deliberately insult Almighty God by being part of a wicked Organisation that pretend to serve God. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

I do wish that those people obsessed with AN ORGANISATION, would tell me, in chronological order, which Organisations Almighty God was using from the year 100 through to the year 1850. 

All complete names of ALL the organisations, with dates from and to, please.  I look forward to your thorough reply, because you people seem to be so confident that you have these answers.