Conscience individual and collective

[xero]

6 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Cesar Chavez is apparently as good a comedian as Lewis Black, whose comedy is partially based on him being angry at everything, all the time, and being seconds away from a detonation stroke.

 

His english usage also reminds me of this old meme

 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

What is a JTR?

 

A former mainstay here who abruptly disappeared. We thought he had died, but it turns out he got consumed in troubles of his own making, and I hope he sorts through them. I came to call him (with his approval) “the ol pork chop.”

[TrueTomHarley]

32 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

A former mainstay here who abruptly disappeared. We thought he had died, but it turns out he got consumed in troubles of his own making, and I hope he sorts through them. I came to call him (with his approval) “the ol pork chop.”

@PudgyHe also came across as damaged, but never hateful. He didn’t forgive, but at the same time he lauded almost brothers as upright and honorable. In the end, I think he came to forgive even those ones he thought were not—individually, if not collectively, and maybe even collectively..

He is an example of Proverbs 19:3 - It is the foolishness of an earthling man that distorts his way, and so his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah himself.

And yet, not entirely, because he felt it was the organization that had run him over roughshod, not Jehovah. It calls to mind a statement of the Memorial speaker, a circuit overseer, in the talk I linked to above and will so again because it fits. (Oh, wait—I didn’t put it in the post, but he did say it)—he said it later, in the ‘men—what should we do?’ concluding section...wait, I’ll insert it): “If you’ve been hurt, and you know that you shouldn’t have been, but deep down inside you know it wasn’t Jehovah...”

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2021/03/object-lessons-at-the-memorial-talk.html

People get hurt. It is what happens in any large assembly of people. Most humans handle matters in the Abraham/Lot manner: “you go this way and I’ll go that way.” JWs continue to bond together as a family, however I note that two separate circuit overseers have recently used such expressions as: “one large, happy, united, somewhat dysfunctional, family.” Nobody in the faith for any amount of time would ever say that we are not. But the entire human family is dysfunctional, and the Witness organization strives to address it, overcome it, and has succeeded to a far greater degree than most.

 

[xero]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

"Open Club"........."Closed Club" ........"Open Conscience"........"Closed Conscience".........etc.

Is it possible just to speak frankly .... what we think about this and that?

A person can make an attempt to speak frankly, but that same person could be deceiving him or herself as regards his/her attempts. I think this is interesting from a linguistic perspective. Some languages don't have words for "try". You either did something or you didn't. The word "try" seems a bit like getting partial credit or getting a participation trophy.

[xero]

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

@PudgyHe also came across as damaged, but never hateful. He didn’t forgive, but at the same time lauded most brothers as upright and honorable. In the end, I think he came to forgive even those ones he thought now.

He is an example of Proverbs 19:3 - It is the foolishness of an earthling man that distorts his way, and so his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah himself.

And yet, not entirely, because he felt it was the organization that had run him over roughshod, not Jehovah. It calls to mind a statement of the Memorial speaker, a circuit overseer, in the talk I linked to above and will so again because it fits. (Oh, wait—I didn’t put it in the post, but he did say it)—later, in the ‘men—what should we do?’ concluding section...wait, I’ll insert it): “If you’ve been hurt, and you know that you shouldn’t have been, but deep down inside you know it wasn’t Jehovah...”

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2021/03/object-lessons-at-the-memorial-talk.html

People get hurt. It is what happens in any large assembly of people. Most humans handle matters in the Abraham/Lot manner: “you go this way and I’ll go that way.” JWs continue to bond together as a family, however I note that two separate circuit overseers have recently used such expressions as: “one large, happy, united, somewhat dysfunctional, family.” Nobody in the faith for any amount of time would ever say that we are not. But the entire human family is dysfunctional, and the Witness organization strives to address it, overcome it, and has succeeded to a far greater degree than most.

 

One thing which has been helpful for me is to spend as much time as possible with people who annoy me.

I figure the solution to my not getting along with someone is to spend more time with them.

 

(edited to say it's like they say, some people only spend enough time in service to hate it)

[TrueTomHarley]

18 minutes ago, xero said:

One thing which has been helpful for me is to spend as much time as possible with people who annoy me.

I figure the solution to my not getting along with someone is to spend more time with them.

 

(edited to say it's like they say, some people only spend enough time in service to hate it)

I like this. Same here. Several times in my life I have run across people—for the most part, not in the truth, but sometimes they are—who I disliked intensely. But I forbid myself to say it. In time, I came to have regard for some of them, even becoming friendly with some.

One is a non-JW supervisor I sometimes worked under, a real dragon, but she had other struggles. I got away with a lot on a part-time gig at a certain company, because I was overall a force for cohesion. “Don’t worry about Gladys,” I told one newbie leery of her reputation. “She is a horrible shrew, but if you just do your job, you should have little problem.” She was right behind me! 

I didn’t back down. “Well, come on! Gladys—you know how you are!” In time we got along, even if I didn’t work under her very often.

[xero]

27 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I didn’t back down. “Well, come on! Gladys—you know how you are!” In time we got along, even if I didn’t work under her very often.

Good save on that fumble. Always double down.

Reminds me of this clip w/regard to defusing.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 minutes ago, xero said:

Good save on that fumble. Always double down.

Now you’ve got me going. I’m getting to be an old fart who just likes to hear myself talk. (though, to be sure, I file away much of what I write for possible use elsewhere).

This same supervisor was on a large job involving all the supervisors. You were supposed to download your machine into one area before entering her far-away area. One fellow forgot to do it, and she proceeded to lite into him.

”Honestly, I don’t know what is wrong with him!” I harrumphed. “I’ll take him back there myself to be sure it gets done!”

I had forgotten it, too. I didn’t fool anybody, of course, and my allies, who included almost everyone but Gladys, all collapsed in laughter.

[xero]

14 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Now you’ve got me going. I’m getting to be an old fart who just likes to hear myself talk. (though, to be sure, I file away much of what I write for possible use elsewhere).

This same supervisor was on a large job involving all the supervisors. You were supposed to download your machine into one area before entering her far-away area. One fellow forgot to do it, and she proceeded to lite into him.

”Honestly, I don’t know what is wrong with him!” I harrumphed. “I’ll take him back there myself to be sure it gets done!”

I had forgotten it, too. I didn’t fool anybody, of course, and my allies, who included almost everyone but Gladys, all collapsed in laughter.

One old fart to another...reminds me of how much fun it was thinking of a question that randomly occurred during the old book study arrangement and then asking the group the question when you didn't know the answer yourself. "He must know the answer, otherwise he wouldn't ask it", thought one of the brothers. "I know!", thought another who raises his hand. "Blah, blah, blah!", he replies as he was filled w/holy spirit. Then follows the narration w/regard to the bro who prophesied "Blah, blah, blah!". "This, though he did not say of his own originality, but because he was stuck in brother weirdo's book study he prophesied truthfully 'Blah, blah, blah!' that others might not be stumbled....I learned a lot of things that way.

 

[Witness]

5 hours ago, xero said:

You can always know someone has driven off into the ditch once they leave off preaching the kingdom but instead start rolling their own scrolls and smoking them.

Musing more...

It seems that I need to keep studying this business of conscience and it's relationship to organization and organizational discipline as a requirement for identifying an organization truly fulfilling the commission of making disciples and teaching them to observe (OBEY).

Seems like the word "OBEY" is a four letter word to those perishing.

My arguments need to be short, scriptural and the illustrations, emotionally evocative.

I also need a list of organizational "conversation stoppers" and ways to defuse these obstacles.

***Again...just thinking aloud

 

“Obey those who [a]rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you. “Heb 13:17

[a]rule – “lead”. 

This scripture is a fallback for the organization to expect obedience to the GB and elders.  The apostles led the newly anointed ones especially, in truth.  The point of this leading was to direct them to Jesus Christ.  This, is how they were making disciples for Jesus and the Father.  It had nothing to do with earthly organizational arrangements, and leading people to the organization.  Jesus knew the last remnant of anointed would face such a delusion. He stated to these disciples who were desiring to be greater than another:

“The kings of nations have power over their people, and those in authority call themselves friends of the people. 26 But you’re not going to be that way! Rather, the greatest among you must be like the youngest, and your leader must be like a servant. 27 Who’s the greatest, the person who sits at the table or the servant? Isn’t it really the person who sits at the table? But I’m among you as a servant.”  Luke 22:25-27

Elders, are the “kings” of the nations, as they “represent the royal priesthood of "kings"”, which in reality means they have usurped the dignity of this priesthood. (2 Thess 2:3,4) “Those in authority” over these “kings”, is the GB – “friends of the people”/”benefactors” - who volunteer their time for the 'greater good'.  This is organizational arrangement, but Jesus condemns it.

How powerful, how much impact do Jesus’ words have, against those of men who “rule” and wield discipline under such an arrangement?  Jesus’ words have no impact.  JWs see the elders, the GB, their great accomplishments, and it is to them that obedience and praise is given. 

Anthony Morris: 

“When that direction comes out to Branch committee members, or when it comes out to the congregations; IF you want Jehovah’s blessing on you as an individual or family, certainly as an elder or congregation, it’d be best to ask Jehovah to help you understand it, but obey the decision.”

He continues, “This is a theocracy ruled by God, not a collection of man-made decisions. This is governed from heaven.”

There is no way that God would sanction such actions of men who fabricate their own “theocracy”,  and who admit they are not inspired and never have been. We don’t obey decision that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ.  Are the Branch Committee Members inspired where these decrees originate?  Morris was putting his fist down to preserve his dominance over everyone, totally contrary to what Jesus expects of those whom HE sends.  Morris was enforcing “man-made” organizational protocol, with the threat that God will not bless a JW if these various organizational decisions are not followed. 

 Jesus’ teachings, and the teachings of the apostles, - the foundation of the spiritual Temple -  reflected Truth, not prominence of men, and certainly not obedience to a shifting doctrine newly formed, and then overhauled, as if such shifting of false truth is ever received from the Father and Jesus Christ.  James 1:17

 This foundation of Truth that we already have in God’s word, is our touchstone.  If what men say contradicts that touchstone, we are to walk away from them.  Doing this, displays our obedience to Jesus Christ.  

"The man of sin will come with the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous and wonderful signs. But they will be lies. 10 He will use everything that God disapproves of to deceive those who are dying, those who refused to love the truth that would save them. 11 That’s why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie. 12 Then everyone who did not believe the truth, but was delighted with what God disapproves of, will be condemned."  2 Thess 2:9-12

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, xero said:

One thing which has been helpful for me is to spend as much time as possible with people who annoy me.

Viola! You have discovered my reason for being here! 

Look before you came along, of course, I mean, you are not among them. Many aren’t.

But many are.

[xero]

I'm a little like a dog once I see a post that looks all crazy with too many scriptures and differently highlighted letters and whatnot.

 

Reminds me of "Mr Really Long Comment Giver"