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Conscience individual and collective


xero
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19 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Lately, I'm mostly just a stamp licker. It's all so efficient, I can't get in enough hours to meet my goals. (Unless my printer jams. Then, I'm back on track again.*)

*I've been accused of pushing the envelope.

Yes and it seems the Watchtower are even supplying the paper with a special logo in the bottom corner. One that can be read by 'posh' cell phones. 

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Bingo. It’s the pure nastiness of one, not to mention the pure dodo-headedness of another. These annoy far more than the posts themselves, though sometimes the two are hard to unravel. After Paul makes his speech in the Areopagus, he says: “Okay. Been there/done that. If I don’t keep looking upon all these idols, maybe I won’t keep getting so irritated. Maybe I can get around to writing some of those epistles that have been kicking around in the back of my head.” People have dif

I liked your KH building experience. We've all had that experience when we would have made different decisions if we were in charge, and then we are glad we weren't. But I can't seem to fit your musing on conscience into what I thought was the most common use of the term "conscience" in the Bible. Of course, it might be right anyway, depending on what you mean by consequences. For example: Let's say that you would love the experience of eating roast beef a couple times a week, but depe

In the 1970's it was common for Bethelites to order Bible commentaries like Matthew Henry's and Barnes' Notes on the NT and various Bible translations. Later, they also allowed orders for Jay Green's Hebrew Interlinear and William Whiston's Josephus. Bethelites paid for them, but the price was fairly low because all requests were ordered through a one of Dean Songer's assistants. Then there was a meeting in 1979, and all such books became impossible to order, and anyone who already had them

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19 hours ago, xero said:

Conscience is like an internal scale too but it's one that weighs things in accordance with its own experiences.

Rubbish. but now I get a glimpse of how ex Elders think. Are you suggesting that a person would have to be a Pedophile to know that it is wrong ?  Do you then have to experience everything to have a conscience about it ? NO.

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15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Forget what other people might perceive, it's your own conscience that God sees. God, is NOT going around and saying, whatever a member of Christ Church thinks and does wrong, the entire congregation or the entire church will suffer, its consequence.

So this destroys the idea of 'collective conscience'.   And it proves the idea of individual conscience. 

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15 hours ago, César Chávez said:

There are millions of ex-witnesses that will argue, they don't believe in "disfellowship" because the word is not in the Bible,

The problem is not the act of disfellowshipping. The problems are, the reasons for disfellowshipping, and that scripture say to take it before the Congregation, before disfellowshipping. BUT the Elders act in secret, behind closed doors and do not give the congregation true reasons for disfellowshipping someone. 

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Musing more....

One of the things I noticed as an outside observer prior to becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses was the business of disfellowshipping and reinstatement. I saw both of these things as an atheist observing.

It struck me at the time as highly unusual. I'd read of excommunication as a Catholic, however I've never knew anyone who was ever disciplined in this way, though it's supposedly on the books.

It struck me that perhaps this was the reason I felt comfortable around these people as a group and in general. There were actual consequences for misbehavior. One could hardly imagine any consequences as a Catholic. No one even made you go to confession, never mind you never had to do anything except repeat "Hail Mary's" and "Our Fathers" to get forgiven (which had never at all been convincing to me).

No, even now it strikes me as a very important thing, this business of discipline.

I have to admit that I have a hard time w/the business of creating loyalty oaths and pledges and if someone won't burn a pinch of incense to an organization then they are persona non gratis...also engaging in thought-policing - that's also wrong.

Now chronically arguing and pushing ideas and engaging in stirring up contentions in the congregation would certainly merit some attention. Maybe not DF'ing, but certainly addressing these things, but always w/a view to reclaiming people, not forcing people to knuckle under. Ultimately, people who don't want to deal w/the discipline and mental regulating of the Bible will leave. Same reason some people who are obese don't want to hang out at the gym.

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2 hours ago, xero said:

It struck me that perhaps this was the reason I felt comfortable around these people as a group and in general. There were actual consequences for misbehavior.

The consequence of a spiritual "death", as one ex-elder put it recently, in a video I watched?  (John 16:2)

You must not be up-to-date with the old light on disfellowshipping.

 

 

g47-jan-8-p.27-excommunication.jpg

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14 hours ago, xero said:

No, even now it strikes me as a very important thing, this business of discipline.

Do you enjoy having such power to discipline  all JWs?  Do you realize you have been given power by men to judge the anointed royal priesthood/"Israel"/Temple/dwelling of God? (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22.  Is this power originating from God?  

2 Thess 2:1-4 - "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 

Next time you pass the memorial emblems to an anointed one who cannot join with other anointed to study God's word together, I hope you think about this.  It is a control issue, and you are a part of it as an elder. (Rev 13:5-8,11,12,15)  You also have the power to tell someone they are not anointed and cannot partake.   Jesus and his disciples that formed the foundation of the Temple of God, did not have those not invited to his supper, passing the emblems to them. 

Who really should receive discipline for not following God's word?  

"But you and your sons with you shall attend to your priesthood for everything that concerns the altar and inside the veil, and you are to perform service. I am giving you the priesthood as a service that is a gift, and the unauthorized person who comes near shall be put to death."  Num 18:7

"But no one is to enter the house of the LORD except the priests and the ministering Levites; they may enter, for they are holy. And all the people are to keep the command of the LORD." 2 Chron 23:6

'This is what the Lord GOD says: "No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary."  Ezek 44:9

Have the elders entered God's sanctuary?  Yes, they have the authority to "represent the royal priesthood".  But, there is no scripture that allows for "uncircumcised" men to act as God's priests. Thus, the Temple in the anointed are slandered, silenced and judged.

"If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are."  1 Cor 3:17

Rev 11:1,2 -  "I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."  

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:
10 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Anna and JWI started this fight not me.

Well—they are horrible scrappers, those two.

The funny thing is I actually have no idea what CC is talking about. It's quite amusing really...

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42 minutes ago, Anna said:

None of this is true at all

You are not aware of the many accounts, I suppose, of anointed who have approached the elders saying they are anointed, yet the elders say they aren't?   How many "mentally imbalanced" anointed are told they are not anointed and cannot partake?  Only God knows, right?

Are you saying that the GB are liars about not approving of the anointed to bond and study the Bible together?

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