The Last Days that began in 1914 are now coming to their End...

[Dmitar]

On 8/18/2021 at 3:25 PM, Space Merchant said:

Association of Free Bible Students of France

 

On 8/18/2021 at 3:25 PM, Space Merchant said:

The New Covenant Believers (Berean Bible Students Church)

There is a parallel with the Bible Student history chart that is relevant for this discussion that does not align with some opinions here as well.

Two of the listed association renounced it’s fellowship with the Bible Student Association in 1909. The Free Bible Students. That association formed the New Covenant Believers, Christian Millennial fellowship, Free Bible Student Association.

Paul S. L. Johnson was skeptical about Russell’s teaching since 1905 and subsequently lead the Free Bible Students to depart from Russell’s teaching in 1909 as depicted in the chart. This error and lie is not noted in the Bible Student history with that point of departure, since “Henninges” wrote to Russell trying to persuade him to change certain views and when Russell refused, Henninges and the Melbourne congregation left to form their own movement which was called “ the New Covenant Fellowship” in 1909 that is not mentioned in that chart?

That chart doesn’t include how, pilgrim M.L. McPhail and A. E. Williamson from the Chicago Bible Students actually formed the “New Covenant Believers” in 1908 and started their own publication The Kingdom Scribe?

These groups are not mentioned in that chart since it try’s to depict in a simplified manner the major known groups of all the “independent” Bible Students. Keep in mind, Russell didn’t agree with many of the understandings independent congregations were offering as insight. Some of that insight included Millerism, which Russell did not accept nor support.

I just thought this correction should be included here. Not everything written in WIKI should be considered factual.

[Space Merchant]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:26 AM, NoisySrecko said:

 

There is a parallel with the Bible Student history chart that is relevant for this discussion that does not align with some opinions here as well.

Two of the listed association renounced it’s fellowship with the Bible Student Association in 1909. The Free Bible Students. That association formed the New Covenant Believers, Christian Millennial fellowship, Free Bible Student Association.

Paul S. L. Johnson was skeptical about Russell’s teaching since 1905 and subsequently lead the Free Bible Students to depart from Russell’s teaching in 1909 as depicted in the chart. This error and lie is not noted in the Bible Student history with that point of departure, since “Henninges” wrote to Russell trying to persuade him to change certain views and when Russell refused, Henninges and the Melbourne congregation left to form their own movement which was called “ the New Covenant Fellowship” in 1909 that is not mentioned in that chart?

That chart doesn’t include how, pilgrim M.L. McPhail and A. E. Williamson from the Chicago Bible Students actually formed the “New Covenant Believers” in 1908 and started their own publication The Kingdom Scribe?

These groups are not mentioned in that chart since it try’s to depict in a simplified manner the major known groups of all the “independent” Bible Students. Keep in mind, Russell didn’t agree with many of the understandings independent congregations were offering as insight. Some of that insight included Millerism, which Russell did not accept nor support.

I just thought this correction should be included here. Not everything written in WIKI should be considered factual.

The source was not from a wiki, it was from CSE - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/

That being said, Wiki has not been factual unless it suits them. In the paradigm, they had recently changed information to misinform people, i.e. 9/11, Kabul, etc.

 

Also, this is the first time I have ever seen you make a response. I always see you in the reactions.

[JW Insider]

On 8/18/2021 at 5:25 PM, Space Merchant said:

Are you aware that some other groups who believed in 1914 of Christ becoming King? I remember on CSE, someone posted possible groups other than Bible Students

[edted to add: The question implies that there were Bible Students who believed that Christ became King in 1914. As far as I know none ever dd. Not even Russell and Rutherford.]

Remember, though, that most of the Bible Student groups broke off long before even the Bible Students under Russell and Rutherford believed that Christ became King in 1914. Russell believed that Jesus Christ became King in 1878, and he believed this right up until he died. Rutherford believed that Jesus became King in 1878, well into the 1920's. (Remember the famous "Advertise, Advertise, Advertise" speech at Cedar Point, Ohio in 1922?) It wasn't until Rutherford died in 1942, that Fred Franz could officially change Christ's presence from 1874 until 1914. This happened in the books "The Truth Shall Make You Free" (1943) and "The Kingdom Is At Hand" (1944). As jw.org says:

*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus’ baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King.

*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
That 1878 was a year of significance seemed to be fortified by reference to Jeremiah 16:18 (‘Jacob’s double,’ KJ) along with calculations indicating that 1,845 years had apparently elapsed from Jacob’s death down till 33 C.E., when natural Israel was cast off, and that the double, or duplicate, of this would extend from 33 C.E. down to 1878.
Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. (37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 1878) for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end. This date appeared in reprints of Studies in the Scriptures.

*** ka chap. 11 pp. 209-210 par. 55 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” ***
In the year 1943 the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society published the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free.” In its chapter 11, entitled “The Count of Time,” it did away with the insertion of 100 years into the period of the Judges and went according to the oldest and most authentic reading of Acts 13:20, and accepted the spelled-out numbers of the Hebrew Scriptures. This moved forward the end of six thousand years of man’s existence into the decade of the 1970’s. Naturally this did away with the year 1874 C.E. as the date of return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the beginning of his invisible presence or parousia. The millennium that was to be marked by the detaining of Satan the Devil enchained in the abyss and by the reign of the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in heavenly glory was therefore yet in the future. What, then, about the parousia (presence) of Christ? Page 324 of the above book positively says: “The King’s presence or parousia began in 1914.” Also, in the Watchtower issue of July 15, 1949 (page 215, paragraph 22), the statement is made: “ . . . Messiah, the Son of man, came into Kingdom power A.D. 1914 and . . . this constitutes his second coming and the beginning of his second parousía or presence.”

Over the years Rutherford had made a few sometimes vague comments that the "kingdom" chronology was being adjusted, but he relied on it thoroughly for his 1925 predictions. Also, there were some more specific comments in a 1924 booklet written by Van Amburgh (not written by Rutherford) and in the Golden Age (edited by Woodworth) that made it pretty clear that this change from 1878 to 1914 was in the works. 

But the publications quoted on jw.org showed that the old 1874/1878 chronology was not completely removed until 1943. During those 60-some years from 1878 to 1943, all the Bible Student spin-offs and break-aways had already left. In fact most of them had left between 1917 and 1929, when apparently less than a quarter of the original Russellite Bible Students were still associated with the Watch Tower Society. Note these (generally factual) ideas from the resources quoted in the Wikipedia footnotes:

The Bible Student movement is a Millennialist^[1]Restorationist Christian movement that emerged from the teachings and ministry of Charles Taze Russell, also known as Pastor Russell. Members of the movement have variously referred to themselves as Bible Students, International Bible Students, Associated Bible Students, or Independent Bible Students. The origins of the movement are associated with . . .Russell's teachings.

A number of schisms developed within the congregations of Bible Students associated with the Watch Tower Society between 1909 and 1932.^[2][3] The most significant split began in 1917 following the election of Joseph Franklin Rutherford . . .

Thousands of members left congregations of Bible Students associated with the Watch Tower Society throughout the 1920s . . . . William Schnell, author and former Jehovah's Witness, claims that three quarters of the original Bible Students who had been associating with the Watch Tower Society in 1919 had left by 1931.^[4][3][a] In 1930 Rutherford stated that "the total number of those who have withdrawn from the Society... is comparatively large."^[5]

Between 1918 and 1929, several factions formed their own independent fellowships, including the Stand Fast Movement, the Pastoral Bible Institute, the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement founded by PSL Johnson, and the Dawn Bible Students Association. These groups range from conservative, claiming to be Russell's true followers, to more liberal, claiming that Russell's role is not as important as once believed.^[6] Rutherford's faction of the movement retained control of the Watch Tower Society^[6] and adopted the name Jehovah's witnesses in July 1931.^[b]

[Pudgy]

I think the real question is, if a person of good heart decided he wanted to become one of Jehovah’s Witness, do you have to really believe all these superfluous things that are of no consequence in order to be baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Would you have to give lip service to these things which are in retrospect blatantly wrong?

Would you get a pass from the elders for things which in good conscious to you seem silly and stupid, if you firmly believed in all the core beliefs and wanted to dedicate your life to Jehovah God, through Christ?

……. what I am afraid of is that the travesty is, that we already know the answers to the above questions.

 

 

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The source was not from a wiki, it was from CSE - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/

CSE is well-indexed by Google, but the closest comment I could find in this regard was the following on CSE:

Baptist William Miller came up with calculations pointing to 1844 as the second coming of Christ Jesus. Seventh Day Adventists, along with members of the Bahai’ Faith, also point to October 1844 as being highly significant with regard to end-time prophecy. As far as I am aware, the only other group apart from Jehovah’s Witnesses who still cling to 1914 are the survivors of the original Bible Students who voted with their feet and left the organisation after the second President, Rutherford, introduced the name Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

16 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I think the real question is, if a person of good heart decided he wanted to become one of Jehovah’s Witness, do you have to really believe all these superfluous things that are of no consequence in order to be baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?

The truth is you have to kiss the butt of the Elders to be able to get baptised. The Elders rule over the congregations.

The congregation i was in when I wanted to get baptised, was ruled over by two Elders, a father and son.  The son decided that I wasn't ready, so his father agreed. They STOPPED me getting baptised. But I was humble then, I just said ok. Later when the son wanted me to get baptised i actually didn't want to. But once again I was humble, and I did as I was told, and got baptised. 

So I know first hand (from more than one experience) that the Elders have complete control over the congregants, and they love every minute of it. But of course they will be judged for it. 

[the Sower of Seed]

According to Daniel 12 this statement is true! What happens there? Daniel is lead along through the ages including today, through Christ removing every enemy and the human resurrection which Daniel was to experience. Verse 13 Daniel is assured a "lot", in fact he may have been shown it and what it will become.

Proof the End is Near: While the angel speaking to Daniel moves above the waters, Jehovah sends 2 more to document the answer to the question the angel asks verse 7 “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?" the answer 3-1/2 appointed times. Daniel says 8 "Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand." So it is spelled out to him 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.( ONLY THOSE REFINED IN GOD'S EYES WILL BE ALLOWED TO UNDERSTAND, NO OTHER CHURCH OR RELIGION WILL UNDERSTAND)

Jesus could not know at the time he was asked because he did not know the date the constant feature would stop. Jesus would also have been knowledgeable about the first fulfillment, yet what is the context? Jesus standing up and the resurrection, yes this applies to the first fulfillment. However in 12:1b it states "And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book." Can that be said of the first fulfillment? NO, Is there any documentation that Jehovah's Witnesses escaped the effects of WW1 or the Spanish Flu by God's hand? No, this is after Armageddon

Plus verse 2 speaks of a resurrection of those who are later judged unfaithful to God verse 2 "And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt". This is not the first resurrection of 1914, for all those were granted immortality upon their resurrection as spirits who join Jesus awaiting Jehovah's command to Go!

So the angel sent to ask "WHEN" at God's direction, with a third angel as a witness that this is fact, The answering angel raised 2 hands to Heaven as swearing to these facts. There are 2 answers given, 2 United Nations, 2 fulfillments.

verse 11 “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days" The United Nation will rule the Earth on and after this.

Verse 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" 

Why are these Happy? Because this is the first day on Jesus full rule of the Earth with the 144,000! 

The Only Question Left is " Will You Be Happy Then?

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

22 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

This is not the first resurrection of 1914, for all those were granted immortality upon their resurrection as spirits who join Jesus awaiting Jehovah's command to Go!

No one except Jesus has been resurrected yet. All of the dead anointed ones are still in the grave. 

The first will be last and the last will be first.  They will all be taken up to heaven together. Those True Anointed still living will be 'lifted up' and those in the grave will be raised up, and they will all ascend together. 

[JW Insider]

On 9/16/2021 at 9:42 AM, Space Merchant said:

The source was not from a wiki, it was from CSE - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/

I think I just happened to run across another post like the one you were speaking about above.

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/61369/was-the-1914-prophecy-derived-from-the-book-of-daniel-ever-mentioned-in-any-ne/81433

The responder to that question was @1982 and he also came up with nothing prior to 1914 by anyone except from those comments related to the WT.

Of course, there is still the question of the unnamed Canadian minister that C T Russell referred to in 1914. I haven't looked yet for more information about him. It may be that this was just one of those cases of someone declaring that "the end is nigh" and "it's going to happen before the end of this year or next at the latest."

Something like that was always happening somewhere for the majority of years after 1844. Probably, something like that is still happening somewhere in the world nearly every year, even now. This very forum gives evidence of that.

[JW Insider]

On 9/20/2021 at 9:19 PM, the Sower of Seed said:

Verse 12 “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" 

Why are these Happy? Because this is the first day on Jesus full rule of the Earth with the 144,000! 

Then you appear to disagree with the Watchtower publications on this point, where the 1,335 days end in the "happy" year: 1926.

*** w51 7/15 pp. 437-438 par. 16 The 1,290 and 1,335 Days of Daniel’s Prophecy ***
blessed is the one who comes to the 1,335 days. So reckoning this period on from the termination of the 1,290 days would mean from September, 1922, to May, 1926,—three years, eight and one-half months—at which time a large international convention of Jehovah’s people was in session at London, England. It was a season most blessed,

And from 1977:

*** go chap. 8 pp. 146-147 par. 57 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***
Truly the year 1926 deserved to be marked as the happy climax of the close of the 1,335 days. Those of Daniel’s “people” who kept in expectation and reached the end of the 1,335 days were launched off into a happiness that has not diminished,

And even more recently:

*** w00 5/15 p. 14 par. 28 Pay Attention to God’s Prophetic Word for Our Day ***
The 2,300 days of Daniel chapter 8 as well as the 1,290 and the 1,335 days of chapter 12 are all past—behind us in the stream of time.

 

Of course, the "evidence on the ground" was quite different. The Yearbook (below) describes this period as one of the unhappiest times in WT history. The brothers and sisters were still reeling from the heartbreaking stumbling of so many brothers due to the failure of the 1925 prophecies from the "Millions" campaign and the failed predictions from the book The Harp of God, and the continuing departure of followers under Rutherford's direction. There were the additional failures of the expectations promoted in the book Comfort for the Jews, which had just come out in 1925 (rescinded in 1930/31), etc. 1926 also saw the beginning of heated arguments with Rutherford over why he still called for campaigns to sell Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures" to the public (from 1926-1931) even though Rutherford had begun to reject the majority of the content of those books.

*** yb75 p. 146 Part 2—United States of America ***
A. D. Schroeder states: “It was thought that then the remnant of Christ’s anointed followers would go to heaven to be part of the Kingdom and that the faithful men of old, such as Abraham, David and others, would be resurrected as princes to take over the government of the earth as part of God’s kingdom.”
The year 1925 came and went. Jesus’ anointed followers were still on earth as a class. The faithful men of old times—Abraham, David and others—had not been resurrected to become princes in the earth. (Ps. 45:16) So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Then you appear to disagree with the Watchtower publications on this point, where the 1,335 days end in the "happy" year: 1926.

It is very sad to see how JWs on here disagree with each other and disagree with the Leaders of the Watchtower / JW Org.

Mr Rando and Sower of Seed are here supposedly representing the JW Org, whilst both contradicting Watchtower / GB teachings. 

What are visitors to this forum supposed to think ?  It doesn't need Ex-JWs or Anti-JWs to discredit the unity of the JW Org. JWs themselves are doing it right here. 

If this is a small example of the disunity in the JW Org Earthwide, then maybe the Org will disband completely one day.  Maybe the judging and cleaning up has started already. 

It certainly gives me more faith in a True Anointed being brought forward to guide God's servants through Christ.  

Reading the different viewpoints on this forum makes it clear that humans alone cannot do it. 

[JW Insider]

11 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

What are visitors to this forum supposed to think ?  It doesn't need Ex-JWs or Anti-JWs to discredit the unity of the JW Org. JWs themselves are doing it right here. 

Hopefully, visitors will realize two things:

The first thing is that JWs like myself might have completely different opinions about our chronology doctrines, and therefore, as individuals, any one person's opinion must not be all that important. We can take an interest in varying views but come to our own conclusions about them. This hopefully leads to putting more faith in the Bible as Jehovah's Word, rather than men's words, and each of our own opinions.

The second thing is that it shows that JWs don't necessarily worship or blindly follow the GB and/or the Organization, but that we value the good things we learn and try to make sense of some of the things that don't make sense to us. We are always trying to make sure of all things, and hold fast to those things that are "fine."