Watch Tower Ups Pressure on YouTube & Facebook To Hand Over Infringers’ Details

[TrueTomHarley]

On 5/28/2021 at 3:16 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Well, the JW doctrine of why evil exists and why God allows it to this day and to an unknown day in the future is neither a satisfactory nor a solid doctrine.

What’s wrong with it?

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

What’s wrong with it?

There have always been and will be people (angels in heaven) who will answer questions/issues about God in various and opposite ways. 
If these questions have already been answered, through those who have been or are now faithful to God, then there is no longer a need to prove it over and over again for every individual and for every new generation. Because that's how we could go on indefinitely. Every new born person on Earth should be able to choose between good and evil. So, according to such idea, evil and good would have to exist constantly in order for people to be able to choose and thus prove that they have "free will".

According to the current interpretation, WTJWorg's answers to questions about evil and why God allows evil to exist to this day, questions about God and the Devil, Good and Evil could be debated as long as there are people. So infinitely into the future. Because every new generation thinks it knows more and knows better. And since no generation lives forever, the evidence dies with them. Written books and recorded films and which often times live longer than the people themselves are often not sufficient proof and lack the strength and persuasiveness for the new generation to accept all that people before it concluded about life and death, good and evil. 

[hgp]

Am 2.6.2021 um 06:39 schrieb Srecko Sostar:

 Every new born person on Earth should be able to choose between good and evil. So, according to such idea, evil and good would have to exist constantly in order for people to be able to choose and thus prove that they have "free will".

But Satan could choose evil in a world without evil, couldn't he? Doesn't that show, evil doesn't have to exist in order to choose it?

Am 2.6.2021 um 06:39 schrieb Srecko Sostar:

According to the current interpretation, WTJWorg's answers to questions about evil and why God allows evil to exist to this day, questions about God and the Devil, Good and Evil could be debated as long as there are people. So infinitely into the future. Because every new generation thinks it knows more and knows better. And since no generation lives forever, the evidence dies with them.

But "according to current interpretation" the generation that lives through the great tribulation will live forever. And they will be able to explain everyone, that they lived in an evil world that knowingly chose to self destruct by not stopping evil and even refused Jesus as their last hope when he came and they even fought him to the death for their "right to do evil". How can there be any serious discussions about that point any more after that? "Evil leads to an evil world, that destroys itself" will be the eternal message.

[hgp]

Am 1.6.2021 um 11:10 schrieb Srecko Sostar:

 So the question that is still relevant is: What do the leaders of every church do to reduce and curb religious intolerance, especially while publicly announcing the suppression of every religious option other than their own?

I don't know about everyone else, but JW are constantly reminded, that we should love all people, even self declared enemies. And this works (within the bounds of human imperfection) for JW.

 

Am 1.6.2021 um 11:10 schrieb Srecko Sostar:

the religious animosity that develops in the feelings of members of one church towards another, on a global level, is certainly a display of intolerance. And that is the reality in all religions not just in the JW church.

I think you are mixing several incompatible ideas: You like what you like and you (hopefully🙃) tolerate, what you don't like. So "religious animosity" as a feeling towards other religions cannot be "a display of intolerance": Only if someone starts hateful acts against what he doesn't like, intolerance starts. And while most religions show hateful acts against other religions that they don't like, JW don't go there.

Am 1.6.2021 um 11:10 schrieb Srecko Sostar:

To which group of tolerance does ignoring former members belong? To not say even simple hello on the street is strong proof and evidence how majority in JW organization are not only intolerant but show lack of everyday polite.

The kind of tolerance that let's other people do their thing without interfering, even if I don't like it. I'm not supposed to have to show support for stuff I don't like, do I?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

18 hours ago, hgp said:

But Satan could choose evil in a world without evil, couldn't he? Doesn't that show, evil doesn't have to exist in order to choose it?

I don't think 'evil' existed in the beginning so Satan didn't actually 'choose evil', he 'created it'.  The same as disobedience didn't exist until Satan was disobedient to God. The problem all humans have is that we use words to explain things, and all of those words can mean different things to different people. It becomes more complicated when words need to be translated from one language to another.  

18 hours ago, hgp said:

But "according to current interpretation" the generation that lives through the great tribulation will live forever.

Will there not be a final testing at the end of a thousand years of Christ's reign ?  

 

16 hours ago, hgp said:

don't know about everyone else, but JW are constantly reminded, that we should love all people, even self declared enemies. And this works (within the bounds of human imperfection) for JW.

Oh yes but JWs are also taught to SHUN anyone that leaves the ORG.  Shunning their own children. Turning their teenage children out of the house. And they pretend tis is love. 

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, hgp said:

But Satan could choose evil in a world without evil, couldn't he? Doesn't that show, evil doesn't have to exist in order to choose it?

@Patiently waiting for Truthgave interesting view on issue when he said: 

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I don't think 'evil' existed in the beginning so Satan didn't actually 'choose evil', he 'created it'.

 Bible records states how everything was "good" in Creative acts about 7 Days or even with creation/creativity before those 7 Days. That could also mean without "evil" or without "error".

If the environment and condition in Heaven around Satan was without evil and without sin, it would mean that nothing could corrupt one angel or any other angel. If we raise the idea that Satan had "free will", as humans, and chose to be evil, then we could shift the blame to “free will” as a gift from God. Because without “free will” he/we wouldn’t know we have a choice between two or more options. One might conclude that the existence of “free will” is actually a trap. Or we could say that dualism arose from the very creation of a person and it is a matter of the very moment when someone will stop being good and commit something bad. 

Furthermore, we have another very unusual thing in the Book of Genesis and in God’s statement. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

What does it even mean: Knowledge of good and evil? If there is a literal or symbolic tree that has information of what is good and what is evil, then it is inevitable that evil and good already exist in any literal or metaphorical sense. Did “good” produce any effect before Adam and Eve? Yes, because God says that everything that was created was "Good." Is the word “good” in both contexts synonymous?
If so with the word "Good," then it cannot be otherwise with the word "Evil." It must exist, even in the very imagination of the person. In the person of God, angel, man, it doesn't matter.

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

These passages should show that God, satan, and every angel knew, and should know, what "evil" is, without at the same time having to mean that as an individual he is "evil" or has done something "evil". 

In my opinion, this opens a paradox about the very concept of "good and evil". In other words, Adam and Eve could not possibly know what was "good" and what was "evil." God stated this in the quoted verse. By that, Adam and Eve did not know they were doing "evil" because they had no knowledge that “good and evil” existed at all, and more important what is difference, what is essence of them. But God and the angels knew the difference, according to verses.

Furthermore, everything that is in the imagination of an individual may already exist, or will exist in some other form or model of existence, either spiritual or physical. It would mean that "evil" began to exist from the very moment when God and the angels showed that they had "knowledge of good and evil." And, since God exists eternally, then "evil", at least in the form of cognition, also exists eternally.... and so it will be in the future, because God cannot cease to exist, because he is eternal and immortal, as they say, and many of us believe it. 

Did man gain full knowledge of "good and evil" in Eden? I don’t know, because man’s imagination of how to do harm to others developed more and more after Adam and Eve. Consequently, the "knowledge" of what "evil" is also "grew". If gift of imagination and free will will stay with humans, then some future individual and future generation will be in possibility/ability to exercise his/their  "knowledge/ignorance  about good and evil" too. 

[John Houston]

That was wordy. It made sense, but no truth rang true in it. There were many possibilities because of the nature of free will. But life has to be lived by a human being, just as a game has to played, and not charted or hyped on paper of all the talent one team has over the other. God created a perfect world without evil, how? Becahe was the one setting the parameters, the limits, not man. He said what was good and evil, not us! Satan rebelled against what God had purposed for those he had created. They chose to join Satan in that rebellion, eating from the tree that was off limits to them. Now they became knowledgeable about good and evil. And right after Adam ate from the fruit, it became aware they were both naked, not after Eve ate of the fruit! So now something was missing, mankind's new knowledge has them in fear, afraid when God comes to have their evening talk.

Man cannot make it on his own, we see that throughout history. And as the first man and woman showed, without divine guidance our steps will falter, because someone, either our own free will or a spirit son who has rebelled will take us down a path of destruction.  None which leads to life and happiness. And nothing has shown that to be true. Satan lied, they did die and we have been dying ever since. No advancements have changed that. So only the Creator who placed life and living creatures here can change our circumstances. Period!

[Srecko Sostar]

14 hours ago, John Houston said:

That was wordy. It made sense, but no truth rang true in it.

I am confused a little with your resume, how words of mine "made sense" but without any truth in them. Perhaps your choice of words was wrong then, or you making fun of me. 

When JW members read GB publications, then everything "makes sense", to them, and no one sees a single lie in them, everything is “true,” every word “makes sense”. When such a doctrine changes then again everything “makes sense” and no one says they believed in delusion until then. If you also belong to such a group of JW people, then it will be difficult for me to accept the justification of a comment in which you did not bring some important and new elements that confirm your position and refute my ideas.  

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

It seems that Adam knew obedience / disobedience, and Adam knew consequence of each. 

Eve however ??? 

[Srecko Sostar]

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It seems that Adam knew obedience / disobedience, and Adam knew consequence of each. 

Eve however ??? 

Reading WTJWorg interpretations and even some biblical passages about Adam and Eve, one might come to the conclusion that Eve was quite unprepared for the challenges she was faced with. If it were true that Eve was intellectually and spiritually "immature" or "less mature" than Adam, then the question is why she should have been punished with the same measure as Adam who, just because he is a man/male, should have known what was going on in his family, and not to leave Eve alone to talk to the serpent. So the question is; Where was he and what was Adam doing while Eve was talking to the serpent and reaping the fruit? By the way women, female in general, were treated, in OT, NT and in WTJWorg today, then really all the blame for everything in the world is only on men.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

By the way women, female in general, were treated, in OT, NT and in WTJWorg today, then really all the blame for everything in the world is only on men.

Well it seems that sin is inherited through men. Jesus was born of a woman, Mary, but did not inherit her sins.