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The disgusting thing that causes desolation...


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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You forget about these points very conveniently!

These points are not forgotten at all. The scriptures answer these questions very clearly. If we rely on scripture instead of our own understanding there is no confusion and no contradiction. And you would be able to accept those several scriptures which you have indicated you don't believe in. You didn't say you don't believe in them, but you have indicated it repeatedly.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Of course he had authority and dominion but WHEN did he take the throne of David?

You can see this for yourself by simply reading Acts 2 and Acts 13. Also note the significance of the expression "for I have chosen him as my son, and I myself shall become his father." You can find discussions of this expression in the Insight book and various Watchtower articles. Tomorrow I might add more information.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

When did he sit at the right hand of his father - and until what time?

Again, this is easily answered with Scriptures you already know.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

When did he rule amidst his enemies as Ps 110 indicates?

Again, Paul makes it very clear in 1 Cor 15:25, already mentioned above.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

You forget about verse 9 and 10 in the same chapter (Eph) which refer to a time when Jesus takes dominion (rule as Davidic king) of heaven and earth.

They are not forgotten. You are merely trying to make them contradict the verses above which you don't want to accept, such as Hebrews chapters 1 and 2. They don't contradict the others scriptures at all. Jesus took dominion, ruling as the Davidic king when he sat down at God's right hand. Just read the opening chapters of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians. Read Acts chapter 2 again.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

those who trust in their own (superior) understanding....  evident from your dumping together of scriptures without a clear defining of timelines.

It's the Bible's presentation that is superior. What you call dumping together of scriptures is your reaction to the fact that all the scriptures are consistent and not contradictory. You don't like them listed together, because they all give a unified, consistent timeline. You appear to wish that they weren't listed together to show the consistency, but wish to dump several of them into the garbage so that they don't interfere with the old chronology tradition handed down to us from Christendom (especially, John Aquila Brown, Christopher Bowen, E.B. Elliott, Robert Seeley, Joseph Seiss, and Nelson Barbour): 

*** jv chap. 10 p. 134 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***
As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. . . .  In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel . . . . Robert Seeley, of London, in 1849, handled the matter in a similar manner. At least by 1870, a publication edited by Joseph Seiss and associates and printed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was setting out calculations that pointed to 1914 as a significant date. . . .
Then, in the August, September, and October 1875 issues of
Herald of the Morning, N. H. Barbour . . . . Using chronology compiled by Christopher Bowen, a clergyman in England, and published by E. B. Elliott . . . . .

 

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Romans 8 : 19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God. Romans 8 : 21 & 22 the creation itself will also be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22  For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.  Yes indeed the creation (earthly class / children of God) are in eager expectation of the revealing of the True Anointed 'sons

It is what the telemarketer told me after I never ever took his calls because he persistently peddles rubbish, and then one day I accidentally picked up the phone thinking it was a call I had been expecting—that my pattern of blocking him showed “hesitancy in my belief structure.”

I am sure you don’t care what I say, but I’m using your comments as a sounding board.  Perhaps there are others who may understand the spiritual meaning behind the “disgusting thing standing in the holy place”.  Your understanding is full of holes. Since many who leave the organization, reject the organization, they are the persecuted ones.  Any anointed who claims total faith and loyalty in God and Jesus Christ, is spiritually “killed” by your leaders.  (John 16:2; Rev 13:15) They choose t

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14 hours ago, Arauna said:

10  for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.

    Hello guest!
 Yes, in him .....".. 

This is still in the future as the Anointed have not yet all been gathered and taken to heaven and the world on this Earth is still controlled by the Devil. 

So are you now saying that Jesus hasn't 'come into power' yet ?

But I very much dislike that you call Jesus a liar when his words are recorded at 

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(Matthew 28:18) . . .Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

I think the emphasis should be on the word HAS, ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN ME 

HAS is past tense, it had already happened.  So you can believe your GB who are only men, OR. you can believe the words of Jesus Christ.

15 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I know we have had that idea drilled into us so much that we actually end up denying the scripture without giving it a second thought. It's a clear case of how our tradition has made the word of God invalid.

 

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Now can you see how our tradition can make the word of God invalid?

I note the repetition for emphasis 

NOW CAN YOU SEE WHY SOME PEOPLE WOULD LEAVE THE JW ORG ? 

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13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

so that they don't interfere with the old chronology tradition handed down to us from Christendom (especially, John Aquila Brown, Christopher Bowen, E.B. Elliott, Robert Seeley, Joseph Seiss, and Nelson Barbour): 

*** jv chap. 10 p. 134 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***
As early as 1823, John A. Brown, whose work was published in London, England, calculated the “seven times” of Daniel chapter 4 to be 2,520 years in length. . . .  In 1844, E. B. Elliott, a British clergyman, drew attention to 1914 as a possible date for the end of the “seven times” of Daniel . . . . Robert Seeley, of London, in 1849, handled the matter in a similar manner. At least by 1870, a publication edited by Joseph Seiss and associates and printed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, was setting out calculations that pointed to 1914 as a significant date. . . .
Then, in the August, September, and October 1875 issues of
Herald of the Morning, N. H. Barbour . . . . Using chronology compiled by Christopher Bowen, a clergyman in England, and published by E. B. Elliott .

SO, are you telling us here that 1914 WAS being used BEFORE the Bible Students used it ? Are you in fact saying that either it isn't true fact, or that it wasn't 'discovered' by use of Holy Spirit BUT by use of other MEN'S writings. 

Now if none of those people you list received Holy Spirit then it is only the words of men making 1914 sound SO important.

JWI, I know you do not like me because I constantly find fault, but be fair, there does seem to be many a fault to find. 

And if the Watchtower / JW Org basis it's teachings (traditions) on a very unsteady (false) fondations then surely Almighty God, through Jesus Christ, will disapprove and show disapproval. 

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1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

re you now saying that Jesus hasn't 'come into power' yet

Definitely not!  He took his Davidic kingship and is now doing his duties as jehovah sees fit.  He took power over the demons to throw them down to earth when his office of davidic King started.  He stopped sitting at the right hand of his father and took his office.

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

aying that you actually don't believe the scriptures mentioned above in

No - are you saying that Satan was not thrown out of heaven according to Revelation 12 when jesus took office as king as the verses indicate from verse 7 to 12?

I do not clump all the scriptures together in one bunch and make one concept out of them.  I analyze it meticulously to see what is meant by each word.  Please explain when revelation 12 : 7-12 went into fulfillment and with emphasis on verse 10. When did this KINGDOM become God's and the authority of his Christ.  This was obviously a new situation and what war was it on the demons?  When Jesus was on earth he did not attempt to take power over the demonst but allowed them to go into pigs.  It was not the time yet to throw them out of the areas they could enter. Jesus received authority to do this when he took kingship after waiting for the right time!

Jehovah has a time line and events take place in the outworking of his purpose.  This is why one cannot randomly throw all these scriptures together.  But you do it to give your theories substance...... or so you think!

 

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On 6/8/2021 at 4:13 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

And it seems that Only the GB can authorise the many books and magazines written,

Doubtless you know that I have written several excellent books. Are they “authorized” by the GB? Does that mean that I can’t write them?

IF the GB “authorized” my books, would that help their circulation? You know it would. Do I complain that they do not? Have you heard me do that?

THAT’S what your imaginary “True Anointed” rails about. Nobody is saying that they can’t write their own books if they must, but they want to piggyback on the work of someone else. They may rail against organization, but they sure wish to stand upon the platform that organization has built!

On 6/8/2021 at 4:04 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

BUT just as your Elders have Elders meetings and they do not invite the whole congregation, and in fact, your GB will have meetings where they do not invite the whole congregation,

This is too stupid to believe.

Just yesterday I read of a Congressional meeting in which every U.S. citizen was not invited! I immediately dashed off a letter of outrage to that government body. 

And please don’t tell me that the difference is that Congress is an organization of MEN. Just because something makes no sense, that does not mean it is the WORK of GOD.

22 hours ago, Witness said:

Dare you leave your organization and still find you can serve God and Jesus?  If you feel you can’t, you are an idolater. 

The reason people organize is to get things done. The reason people oppose organization is so those things may not be done. It is no more complicated than that. 

And if the eight have “forbidden” your brand of anointed to meet together, why don’t you just invite them over to your house? As Patiently Sitting on my Hands is fond of saying, as though he thereby proves any of the inane points he makes, with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!

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21 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Is this more JW / GB guessing ?  Please enlarge as I really don't know. 

No surprise there.

(Tom, stop it! Let his remarks pass by! Don’t you know about self-control? With God all things are possible!)

Sigh. “Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of dodos.”

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just because some human king is "sitting" [on his throne] and waiting for the proper time to perform a specific act doesn't mean he is not a king just because he was "sitting" on a throne.

I have often used this reasoning with my wife when she is perturbed that I have been sitting too long, instead of doing things that she imagines need doing. Let me tell you, it does not work.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

so that they don't interfere with the old chronology tradition handed down to us from Christendom (especially, John Aquila Brown, Christopher Bowen, E.B. Elliott, Robert Seeley, Joseph Seiss, and Nelson Barbour): 

Um—it’s a little bit of a deviation, but do you have anything parallel on the origin of the universal court case teaching? For a project I’m working on. DM is okay, in case you don’t want to break the disciplined organization of this thread.

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1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Um—it’s a little bit of a deviation, but do you have anything parallel on the origin of the universal court case teaching?

I have been reading quite a bit about the Great Awakening in the early United States even reading some early 1800's debates between Episcopalians and Presbyterians, for example on several subjects. Among either them or the Methodists, Quakers, Baptists, Moravians, Disciples of Christ, etc., I have only seen hints of it. Episcopalians evidently are supposed to have spoken out against it in places but I have never seen that.

From what I can see it's still most clearly spelled out in the Adventist doctrine in Ellen G White's book from 1858, "The Great Controversy." She was one of the early adopters of Millerite Second Adventism (and Miller himself was a Baptist preacher). I have not tried to trace it prior to Second Adventism, and now Seventh Day Adventists and Witnesses are the main teachers of this doctrine.

You might find it curious that here

    Hello guest!
an Adventist noticed that the Teaching Company has a series called the Philosophy of Religion by Dr. James Hall.

I listened to one series on the Philosophy of Religion by Dr. James Hall, from the University of Richmond (I think). He describes himself as an "agnostic Episcopalian," or something like that. He's definitely not a fundy, and certainly not an Adventist one.

Well, part of the series deals with theodicy, the justification of God in the face of evil. You know, How can God be all-good and all-powerful and all-loving and there be evil? That kind of stuff, and certainly a fair question. Anyway, he goes through these different theodicies, explains them and then, after each one, said why he believed each one didn't work. And, for the most part, I had to agree with him.

Then, just as an aside, he said (and I'm paraphrasing him), "Oh, yes, there is one more theodicy. No one takes it seriously any more today but I thought I'd mention it." He called it the Cosmic Free Will Theodicy or something like that. The upshot is that for about three minutes he describes, basically, the great controversy scenario, pretty much how any traditional Adventist would. You know, an angel Lucifer with free will, falls into sin, leads a rebellion in heaven that takes hold on earth, a battle between good and evil, etc. I mean, it was our cosmic world view perfect expressed.

What was fascinating, however, is that he ended it with these words. "This theodicy is the only one that works, the only that can explain the goodness of God in the face of evil."

I should add that Ellen G White claimed to have seen these ideas in a vision from 10 years earlier (1848). Since claims of plagiarism surrounded White even from very early years, there might be another angle on earlier sources from those who accuse portions of "The Great Controversy" to have been plagiarized.

At any rate, it's still the most rational explanation for why Jehovah has permitted wickedness and sin, imo.

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