Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance

[Arauna]

6 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

half of this forum as being hateful OCD,

Only the characters I have come to know who have the same attitude as you do - that compulsive hate...... there is never a balanced way in the thinking processes ....... it is never ever positive. Always the modus operadi smells foul. 

On the other hand I do not always agree with JW Insider and have accused him of other stuff but never of hate-OCD.  That is a special designation for people with specific personality traits.  So - you have that assessment wrong as well! 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, Arauna said:

Only the characters I have come to know who have the same attitude as you do - that compulsive hate...... there is never a balanced way in the thinking processes ....... it is never ever positive. Always the modus operadi smells foul. 

On the other hand I do not always agree with JW Insider and have accused him of other stuff but never of hate-OCD.  That is a special designation for people with specific personality traits.  So - you have that assessment wrong as well! 

As a Christian and a lover of God and Christ, I forgive you. I forgive Tom and Thinking also.

 

 

[Arauna]

1 minute ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Christian and a lover of God and Christ, I forgive you.

Truly noble of you considering all the other hate you throw around freely! 

[TrueTomHarley]

 

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Hence you seem to get on well with the ladies on here.

It is a great nuisance, let me tell you, but it has always been. Here I am trying to do nothing but think about God and they keep batting eyes at me.

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

One comment she made was interesting, she said she wasn’t demon possessed, but demon obsessed.  I could understand that.  When my husband and I were in the organization, our first son at the age of about two, had an “invisible friend”.

I have a set of about two dozen children's books where each book includes a child's imaginary friend and the interactions with that friend. I would never read these to my children, but psychologists say it is extremely common. I realized when talking to my 5 year old granddaughter at age 2 she was already talking a lot about an imaginary friend. When she was three and four  she also gave ages ranging from 5 to 25 to her dolls and stuffed animals and tells me stories about how each of them get along with each other. I don't recall anything so creative about myself or my own three children.

We had a brother from Florida/Bahamas in our congregation, the brother who handled the literature counter, and he was always telling stories about ghosts and demon possession from back home. Sometimes a crowd of young sisters would gather around the literature counter and I could correctly guess that he was telling another ghost story. But I also recognized that some of his stories were just plain old superstitions, or stories that turned out to be false, but that many people believe, such as snakes that turn themselves in a hoop and roll down hills to attack, or eat their own tails until just a snake head remains, etc. I was nearby when an elder told him to stop telling these stories, and he was defensive about how everyone should know the machinations of the Devil.

My wife and I studied with a couple who both claimed to hear demons in the house breaking dishes and whatnot. They always made a big deal about how they both heard it at the same time, and it wasn't boiler pipes, or rats, etc. (or ravens: Never Morse! Never Morse!) But it caught my attention that their attempts to call out Jehovah's name would sometimes work for only one of them, not the other, and which one was helped would sometimes be reversed. They both ended up being baptized and are still doing well, but they also told me later that at the time they were experimenting with sexual aberrations, wife-swapping, etc., and now they think it was their "guilt" talking, and maybe some drugs, too. 

[Pudgy]

I remember from about 1962 to 1965 in the Truth many people were telling each other stories about demons, ectoplasm phantoms, and other "ghost stories", which I did not believe, but it was clear that THEY believed them, as they told them with serious rapt attention to detail.

...always relating someone elses' experiences ... never their own .... but they told the stories as if they were there.

I was warned repeatedly not to buy things at yard sales, or any used items, as they may be demon possessed, and owning any such item was inviting the demons into your home.

I am glad I spent several years in the Scouts (... before it went to hell in a hand basket), before I developed an interest in the Truth, so I was used to campfire "ghost stories" ... but the fact that most Witnesses I knew gave at least lip service to these beliefs made me wonder whether or not there was something to it.

Empirical "evidence" from such testimony slowly mounted in quantity and scope that it became clear that anything a Sister bought at a yard sale was demon possessed, but Brothers could freely buy tools and used cars without any fear whatsoever.

Later on, in slow, painful lessons, I came to realize we can be our own worst enemy.

.... and I often wonder about the specifics of the Apostle Paul's "thorn" in his side, and the fight he had within himself.

 

[JW Insider]

On 7/11/2021 at 7:45 PM, Witness said:

This is her interview.  I listened again to the first hour where she does mention the tunnels and describes the tunnel in detail, that took her to the room where she channeled.   She spoke of many people involved in the automatic writing, perhaps you will recognize those names not so obvious,

I finished the entire interview. I would have had 100 questions. Then I was surprised that Barbara Anderson came on and actually asked her a lot of the questions I would have asked. I don't think this is so hard to figure out. She admits that her father probably gave her drugs, that her mother was a "weakling" who wouldn't have spoken up. She admits that her father made all the arrangements, and that it went on from the time she was about 3 until she was 15, but that this "activity" where she describes her demon as an entity that protected her, allowing her to become someone else, actually rarely happened again after she was 9. She also says that her relationship with her father deteriorated greatly at age 12. When she confronted her father, he said it was what it was. (Oddly, she also says that she must have fallen asleep right after these "sessions" and had no memory of it until waking up to go to school the next day.) The ability of a religious person to manipulate a victim often involves finding an analogy between light and darkness in scripture or "rationale" that makes them feel special or knowledgeable. In her case it was her father's "logic" about the sun and moon all being a part of the same good day.  (Greater and lesser luminary, light and dark.) 

I don't want to judge her or her father but, unfortunately, almost every detail lends support to a theory that she was abused by her father, and needed to find a way to finally suppress the actuality of incest. Most abuse victims suppress it well enough never to feel a need to talk about it until 40 or more years later. When she was seeking out Bill Bowen and Barbara Anderson, which she had "forgotten," but Barbara remembered, this would have been around the year 2000, when she felt she was running for her life -- and admits that she began her involvement in the occult. Both of those ex-JWs specialized in sexual abuse. She remained in denial for 15 years by pioneering, but then appears to still be in denial of the purpose for which she would have sought out Bowen and Anderson. I believe that most all the details she needed to keep it suppressed under a different cover were just becoming available in 2000 when she says she was asked if she remembered this and that from other people who had been through similar experiences. She gives plenty of evidence that her "memories" are not from experience but from things she read, probably mixed them with just enough real memories.

She was unaware that these tunnels hadn't been built yet, when she claimed to have seen them, and she had the tiling wrong, the color wrong, the lights wrong, etc.

She claims she knew these persons well, and called them all by their names, but uses the pronunciation "Jaracks" for Jaracz (which is pronounced Jerrus). That's evidence of memories through reading. She got Sister Sydlik's description completely wrong, although I'd guess it might easily fit descriptions of her on jehovahs-witnesses.com. She finally admitted that her memory might have been based on an aunt of hers instead. I said above that, based on her timeline, she would likely have been cementing these "necessary memories" around 2000. This is also evidenced by her "memory" that Brother Swingle smelled like ink. Well, I've worked right next to him in his office, and he didn't smell like ink in 1976-1982. No one else I knew  ever said they thought he did either, but curiously it was only in the year 2001, that the Watchtower first mentioned this (July 1, 2001):

Lyman Swingle began his service at Jehovah’s Witnesses’ world headquarters in Brooklyn, New York, on April 5, 1930. He served there for nearly 71 years. Lyman was first assigned to the bindery, then to the pressroom, and he also helped make ink. In fact, Brother Swingle spent about 25 years in the ink room. He also served for some 20 years as a member of the headquarters’ writing staff. For the final 17 years of his life, he worked in the Treasurer’s Office. -https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2001490

Except for the first couple years, he was actually an administrator/manager in the ink room. No one I knew ever thought he smelled like ink, because he didn't. Creating a "memory" out of something one reads during a time when one needs those memories for suppressive purposes is understandable. (For similar examples, watch "Professor T," a well-written  series on PBS. https://www.pbs.org/show/professor-t-uk/) [The first episode, "Anatomy of a Memory" is free on the pbs site.]

There are many more items like this. The blue color of her robes, seems it could have come from Clayton Woodworth's description of the blue cloth related to his own demon possession. The problematic nature of the book "Angels and Women" is something you can read about, but she had absolutely no knowledge of the inside contents of the book, except for the summary phrases using the exact expressions from Golden Age comments "about" the book. Yet she says it was read to her every night as a bedtime book by her father.

There is never anything definitive about these cases, but I have to say that everything can be seen to fit the patterns of sexual abuse cases perpetrated by the father. I feel terribly for the woman.

[Witness]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is never anything definitive about these cases, but I have to say that everything can be seen to fit the patterns of sexual abuse cases perpetrated by the father.

Thank you for your thoughts.  I don't know about you, but I had a bad headache after listening to the whole thing.  I still can't dismiss her testimony completely, just as I can't dismiss Veronica Houston's testimony altogether as well.  But about child abuse, I personally have remember segments and events over the years, but everything came flooding back when I receive a condolence card with letter attached, from my past abuser concerning the death of my husband.  This person was my sister's first husband, and I haven't talked with him for around 40 years. It jolted me into an awareness, and a need to do something about it. The letter and action that I responded  back, actually brought needed closure.  If this woman's story is all the result of child abuse committed by her father, there may be a trigger one day, to bring it to mind. Maybe then, we will see a change in her story.  Or, maybe we will see more concrete evidence of the experience she presently gives.  

But...what about the ex-Bethelite's run-in with "channelers"  in the other video?

[Thinking]

18 hours ago, Arauna said:

This is a reply to the person who made this comment the first time!  Not for Tom!

I come across as emotional because I have a strong way of expressing myself.  I am South African.... but believe me your logic and rationality is not more than mine - so you must have more female hormones than I do.... lol.

Emotions are naturally existent in any of these discussions because lives are involved…what some of you say here…could very well end in someone’s death…..so I guess for me..beating around the bush isn’t acceptable…..I know this wasn’t you writing this comment Tom…I would t have a clue who wrote it so no emotion is not involved at this point….

[Thinking]

23 hours ago, Arauna said:

Spot on observation. A chance to show doubt and hate. It is clearly part of all the propaganda now leading to Armageddon.  

Well just look at the above discussions now taking place from six screens..incredible how slyly these are introduced and discussed ..with the results of sowing seeds of doubt….unbelievable!…and who introduced it and who is participating….sheesh…is everyone blind!!,

[Thinking]

On 7/12/2021 at 12:49 PM, Anna said:

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves.
Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning  and actually make the truth my own.

I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

That doesn’t make sense Anna,,,,sorry but anyone can be persuaded by the devil…as Eve was…are you spiritually stronger than she was…am I…...with correct persuasion one can discern biblical truths…with false persuasions one can follow down the wide path of destruction…with tricky or sly persuasions one can leave the narrow path and join the wide path…or certain persuasions can make one halter on the narrow path…and allow the crowding to slow one down…or look backwards instead of forward…

ALL !!!!!forums are the playground of the demons Anna…….and why wouldn’t a hungry lion who has a taste for JW blood not go hunting where they gather…..

Beware he who thinks he is standing does not fall……

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, Thinking said:

That doesn’t make sense Anna,,,,sorry but anyone can be persuaded by the devil…as Eve was…are you spiritually stronger than she was…am I…...with correct persuasion one can discern biblical truths…with false persuasions one can follow down the wide path of destruction…with tricky or sly persuasions one can leave the narrow path and join the wide path…

ALL !!!!!forums are the playground of the demons Anna…….and why wouldn’t a hungry lion who has a taste for JW blood not go hunting where they gather…..

Beware he who thinks he is standing does not fall……

It seems any JW can be persuaded by the GB that the GB are the F&DS.

And it seems that any JW can be persuaded by their GB that 'God and Christ trust the GB'. 

So yes it does seem that people can be persuaded by the Devil. 

Quote "ALL !!!!!forums are the playground of the demons Anna"

If you truely believe this then why are you here ?   

14 hours ago, Thinking said:

Emotions are naturally existent in any of these discussions because lives are involved…what some of you say here…could very well end in someone’s death…

I think disfellowshipping some people has caused them to commit suicide.  And the threats in the Watchtower mags over the years must have caused mental health problems for many. And ordering parents not to speak to d/fed children, and wives not to speak to d/fed husbands. You think all that instruction is from God ? Jesus said "Learn what this means 'I want mercy not sacrifice'". 

When an Elder phones my wife and tells my wife I was disfellowshipped. But my wife knows the truth, that i left the Org because of the immorality CSA in the Org earthwide. So my wife puts the Elder straight and the Elder replies, "It's all the same to us".  Think on that. That Elder is condemning me to death, because the Org teaches that 'You have to be a baptised JW to be saved'

This forum is very tame in comparrison.