Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance

[Thinking]

3 minutes ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

“Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.” - Jesus Christ, Luke 12:51

Uh oh…

That was not about believers but amongst believers amongst unbelievers…read the context .

 

New International Version
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.

New Living Translation
First, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it.

English Standard Version
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,

Berean Study Bible
First of all, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

Berean Literal Bible
For first indeed, of you coming together in an assembly, I hear there to be divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

King James Bible
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

New King James Version
For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

New American Standard Bible
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.

NASB 1995
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.

NASB 1977 
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it.

Amplified Bible
For, in the first place, when you meet together in church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and in part I believe it,

Christian Standard Bible
For to begin with, I hear that when you come together as a church there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For to begin with, I hear that when you come together as a church there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.

American Standard Version
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and I partly believe it.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For whenever you gather with the assembly, I have heard that there is division among you, and certain things I believe.

Contemporary English Version
I am told you can't get along with each other when you worship, and I am sure that some of what I have heard is true. 

Douay-Rheims Bible
For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you; and in part I believe it.

[Thinking]

6 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

@JW Insider gave an opinion on who deleted the topic and why. What's so accusing in that about that other brother?

You should have read the last comment from Rando that he sent me. It was troubling what this man thought of those who thought differently from him. And how he allows himself to pronounce a severe condemnation/judgement of another.

In my opinion JW Insider has outstanding intellectual abilities and I don’t see any aspiration for self-praise. But even if I am wrong in my perception, it does not invalidate the results of the research and presentation he has shown. I hope he will stay on this forum in years to come.

Off course you do ..

[Witness]

32 minutes ago, Thinking said:

That was not about believers but amongst believers amongst unbelievers…read the context .

 

New International Version
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.

Malachi chapter 3

Who is it that is being visited by a "messenger"? (Matt 17:11; Rev 11:1-3)  Who is receiving the message?

The royal priesthood ("elect") must be cleansed. (Mal 3:1-4) Tell me, if they believe in proven falsehoods spoken by the GB, are they not in danger of losing their prospect of eternal life?  (Jer 23:16; Matt 24:23-26)

This is why Jesus predicted a division among  Israel in his day, and "Israel" and those with them, today.  (Luke 12:51)

“Your words against me are harsh,” says the Lord.

Yet you ask, “What have we spoken against you?”

14 You have said, “It is useless to serve God. What have we gained by keeping his requirements and walking mournfully before the Lord of Armies? 15 So now we consider the arrogant t be fortunate. Not only do those who commit wickedness prosper, they even test God and escape.”

It is wickedness in God's eyes to lead people into believing false dates and prophesies.  You may forget them, but He doesn't.  (Jer 14:10; Hos 9:9)

In light of these sins, JWs praise a literal man-made rendition of the tetragrammaton, and not give praise to the God of Truth.  

16 At that time those who feared the Lord spoke to one another. The Lord took notice and listened. So a book of remembrance was written before him for those who feared the Lord and had high regard for his name. 17 “They will be mine,” says the Lord of Armies, “my own possession on the day I am preparing. I will have compassion on them as a man has compassion on his son who serves him. 18 So you will again see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

In the organization, God's requirements about His priesthood have not been kept.  Under the counterfeit priesthood/elder body, His sanctuary/Temple in the anointed has been trampled.  THAT is the body - the "church" that should be unified in the scripture you quote.  Instead, it is scattered among you; "living stones", left not one upon another.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Matt 13:2)

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

That comment about a fellow brother shows you have a real problem with ego….and a great need to be right……can you prove he did that…..or

This reminds me of a scene from Tom Irregardless and Me in which I bring my Bible Student Ted Putsch along on my return visit with Bernard Strawman and the two can’t stand one another. “It couldn’t be simpler!” Ted all but shouts at the pompous fellow, “or is that what is the problem with you?!”

This is not to say that JWI is like Bernard, only that there is almost hostility from Ted, who is ‘zealous for God.’ (I suspect Bro Rando is something like Ted.)  I’ll come to JWI’s defense, even as I say I think he’s off-base and if he should get into hot water over it, I will say ‘it’s on him.’ I’ll do it because I like both you guys, Thinking and him

As best as I can tell, he’s indulging a hobby, the same as everyone else here is. It’s a pastime, same as it is for others. I suppose answering him with rancor is also a pastime, if you get worked up over what he says. You should do it. Why not? It’s not as though I am exactly nice to certain other ones on this forum.

He doesn’t bring it into the Kingdom Hall. He also has no problem with the notion of humans taking the lead. As far as I can see, he teaches what Witnesses teach, with the caveat now and then of saying that ‘this is our present understanding,’ instead of ‘this is the way it is!!’ I don’t have a problem with him. He’s on a tiny internet backwater forum regularly followed by (as he said, and from all appearances it seems to be so) 6 six heroes and 6 villains. Perhaps there are that many again who follow along, but beyond that, I doubt there is any audience beyond the fluke visitor now and then. Of course, once you put something on the internet, ‘it stays there forever!!!’ but it is also immediately buried, and not so easily found even by one searching for it. Not a problem for me. It is when he publishes a book of separatism like Rulf that I’ll leave him to twist in the wind.

He’s indulging a pastime, laying his opinions out with as much support as he can muster, maybe even imagining someone in high places will pick up and mull over it. Everyone here is indulging a pastime. No one, even of the good guys, is a stereotypical Witness. One thing he doesn’t do is link to his own website, as several here do, including myself. Some are going into overdrive on it, Bro Rando and the woman from the hills, I think. PSomH thinks I am here to promote my books. Of course I am in part, but if I really was, believe me, it would be much more in-your-face than the occasional references that I make. 

As an example, here I have received my author’s copy of I Don’t Know Why We Persecute Jehovah’s Witnesses: Searching for the Why. Even after numerous proofs, some by self and some by others, when I see it in print, I immediately make about 200 corrections! Whoa! do I appreciate the advantage of a publisher who edits! None of the corrections are major at this point, nor even typos per say, but small glitches that make for reading not so smooth as could be. Once I upload the amended version, finally finally finally a print book is good to go on Amazon. And then I’ll even abuse my stay more here, for this one will have a modest price of $15, though the ebook on most venues will continue to be free. After that I get Tom Irregardless, also TrueTom vs the Apostates into print, also after similar revisions, no doubt.

So if JWI bends the forum to his own purposes, so do I. So do many here. I’m not sure what else IS the purpose of this forum other than that, for in ideal theocracy all the loyal ones will stick with jw.org and all the soreheads will mutter because they cannot picket online conventions. 

So it’s okay to slap him down. Seriously, I have no problem with that, as I have no problem with his long-winded answers, which I do read but usually not too closely. Maybe that is the reason I see no ‘threat’ in them. It’s not the approach I favor, it’s not how I process things. The notion of figuring everything out through pure scholarship doesn’t wash with me, particularly when it is so out of sync with (I love the expression) ‘the facts on the ground.’ If outside scholarship ought not be required on account of the Word making the workman completely equipped, and that argument is used as to chronology, I see no reason why it shouldn’t equally apply here. The ‘facts on the ground’ can be appreciated by most everyone. But the facts on the ground of 100-200 years ago, all openly updated as needed by “tacking” and “new light,” and nobody pretends otherwise, seems not a requirement of the average Joe Witness, but an optional specialty to be chased down by those with the time, talents, and interest.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Of course I am in part, but if I really was, believe me, it would be much more in-your-face than the occasional references that I make. 

And this on the bottom of every post you make :-

Author of two ebooks, one on opposition to the Witness work in Russia, one on opposition in Western lands. Both 1/3 free preview.

www.smashwords.com  , search: Tom Harley 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

account of the Word making the workman completely equipped,

Yes, Think on that for a moment.   2 Timothy 3 : 16 & 17

Berean Literal Bible
Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 
so that the man of God may be complete, having been fully equipped toward every good work.

But, a. it was only the Hebrew scriptures that they had, b. it was only for the Anointed ones. 

However IF JWs believed that ONLY God's written Word was needed, then the Watchtower would not have wasted millions of pounds/dollars/euros, of donated money in writing hundreds of books over the years. And all of which are untrue.... 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

39 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

And this on the bottom of every post you make :-

Author of two ebooks, one on opposition to the Witness work in Russia, one on opposition in Western lands. Both 1/3 free preview.

www.smashwords.com  , search: Tom Harley 

This is called a signature. I don’t manually type it out each time, you know. It is time for an update. Thanks for reminding me. I don’t recall what is the free preview on TTvtA, but the entire ebook work of Don’t Know Why is free.

Despite the 200 glitches, and I suspect once I release it I could fine-tune for 200 more (but I won’t), I am very very pleased with it—a vast improvement over that turkey Dear Mr. Putin, which I am embarrassed ever to have unleashed. The new book has four sections: 1) Assault—the ban and its immediate repercussions, 2) Apologia—reasons for the ban are nowhere explicitly stated by Russian, authorities, so I have stated some, as well as how they might be defended, 3) Testimony—the best defense is an offense, someone said, and so these are chapters in which I witness, and 4) Endurance—aftermath of the ban, which took a darker turn than anyone would have predicted, but also put Jehovah’s name and kingdom into the international spotlight. 

Nor are parts 2 and 3 divorced from Russian context. They are both illustrated by Russian examples, making the book a cohesive whole. It has garnered a review already (the more the better, any author says). It is not unmitigated praise, but it is fair. I like it. Straight “5” reviews only indicate you have a lot of friends, anyway. I like honest criticism—in this case it is primarily concerned with reliance on AI for translation, and certain clunky writing that maybe the 200 corrections will alleviate . Although the seemingly clunky AI translating of Bro Sivulsky is actually his own remarks word for word, he speaking English as a second language. So it’s good. Remember, I said in my introduction, I am an American who still thinks Ilya Kuriaken of the Man from UNCLE was a pretty good Russian super spy, even though I recall Pravda or someone saying that he was not and how could those ridiculous Americans think so.

25 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

However IF JWs believed that ONLY God's written Word was needed, then the Watchtower would not have wasted millions of pounds/dollars/euros, of donated money in writing hundreds of books over the years. And all of which are untrue.... 

sigh….Nor would any other books be written about the Bible by anyone, nor would anyone else ever comment on it, nor would anyone ever teach it, or expound upon it, or interpret it. Anything other than a direct quote would be taboo.

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You should have read the last comment from Rando that he sent me. It was troubling what this man thought of those who thought differently from him. And how he allows himself to pronounce a severe condemnation/judgement of another.

I read his comment to you and I had prepared an answer for him but found the thread had disappeared.  He is much like his spiritual “fathers” who set prophetic dates and time tables – all of which have not come true.  Has he not learned from the examples set by his leaders?  Now, if this had been someone in another religion doing the same, that person would be criticized and labeled a “false prophet”. 

w59 7/1 p. 389-390

#1:  Not all persons who have claimed to be Jehovah’s prophets were actually inspired by him. Regarding such false prophets in Israel Ezekiel said: “Thus says the Lord GOD, Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! They have spoken falsehood and divined a lie; they say, ‘Says the LORD,’ when the LORD has not sent them, and yet they expect him to fulfil their word.” (Ezekl 13:3,6, RS) Jeremiah spoke similar condemnation against the false prophets who said Jerusalem would not fall. He said: “Do not listen to your prophets and to your practicers of divination and to your dreamers and to your practicers of magic and to your sorcerers, who are saying to you: ‘You men will not serve the king of Babylon.’ For falsehood is what they are prophesying to you.”—Jer 27:9,10.

As there were false prophets then, so there are today. They will not hesitate to delude people into believing that they have knowledge of the future. An accurate knowledge of the future cannot be gained from such people.”

 

#2:  The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. w17 February p. 26

In #1, the truth is spoken.  All JWs read it, and heard it during their study.  In #2, the excuses for errors made by those who actually wrote the truth in #1, is the accepted protocol. 

YET, they themselves state “an accurate knowledge of the future cannot be gained from such people”. 

Who really, will be weeping and gnashing their teeth for their hypocrisy?  (Luke 12:54-56; Matt 24:48-51)

By the way, the Wt. teaches that those who enter the organization have left Babylon the Great. 

“For falsehood is what they are prophesying to you”  Jer 27:10

 

 

Is there a Faithful Slave?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

That comment about a fellow brother shows you have a real problem with ego….and a great need to be right…

Someone asked me about why the topic was removed. I could only respond with what I thought had happened.  I answered him publicly so that anyone who knows or thinks it was something different could provide something additional. I didn't say or even imply that I was right. I only said what I thought was probably true. I'll repeat exactly what I said was the probable reason in my opinion:

On 6/29/2021 at 2:54 PM, JW Insider said:

Personally I think that BroRando removed his own topic, probably because it was not very supportive of his predictions for 2034. And there were so many off-topic comments (a lot from me) that were not supportive of 1914. (His 2034 speculation depends on the accuracy of 1914.)

Also, before I said anything, I wrote to the admin and the Librarian and the response indicated to me that they knew nothing about it, and that the most likely scenario was that BroRando had removed it himself. No one else but BroRando and admin/moderators would have that right. I also messaged a couple of moderators to see if they knew. They didn't. I also made sure that BroRando was aware of my comment so that he could respond if he wished.

To tell you the truth, I saw BroRando's last comment to Srecko and thought it was very much out of character for BroRando, since BroRando rarely presents himself the way he did in that post. It occurred to me at the time that he would probably want to delete that comment as it showed a side of him that he had not really shown before, in my opinion. I wondered if he might delete it when I saw it at 10am in the morning. I didn't get back on the forum again until 8pm that evening, and the entire topic was gone -- all 30-some pages.

I was a bit surprised and wondered if he had deleted the whole thing on purpose when he only meant to delete a specific post of his. Then it also occurred to me that it could have been an accidental error by him, or a purposeful move by an admin, or even a software glitch.

That's why I wrote to The Librarian, moderators and the admin.

The ones who responded said that they knew nothing about it, so I fell back on my original opinion that it was probably because no one was being all that supportive of the 2034 prediction, which was the main point that most people were getting from him on that topic. And I also used my response as an opportunity to admit that I had made a lot of off-topic comments that were not supportive of the theory. In saying that I was taking part of the blame.

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

can you prove he did that…..or could that come under a false accusation against a fellow brother……Personally I don’t think anyone knows and you need to stop chasing this and be a little bit humble and stop shoving your thoughts down everyone’s throats…

I never thought I could prove it, which is why I just gave an opinion. There was no false accusation. It's not I said that his words had shown that he had a real problem with ego, for example. It's not like I claimed that he was not humble and that he was shoving his thoughts down everyone's throat.

I think he has opinions, I have opinions, and you have opinions. If someone feels that others' opinions are wrong, they can express the reasons if they want. Or they can simply say they don't like those other opinions. No one is required to respond to or even read those other opinions.

7 hours ago, Thinking said:

I couldn’t care less about dates…..so give it a rest …no honest hearted true brother would do what you are doing to prove your personal point…you are relentless in your crusade…

You told me that I needed to look again for something I hadn't remembered reading before. This doesn't mean that all this rambling and cutting and pasting is for you. I really doubted that anyone would take much of an interest. But as long as I am going through a lot of material again, I thought it best to share what I was finding. Especially because such a review is always an opportunity for me to pick up on several things I hadn't noticed before. And there's always a good chance that several of my conclusions are wrong, so I put a lot of them out their for public scrutiny, where they can be corrected by others.  I'm sure I'll also run across what I missed before (the passage that you saw) and I'd very much like to find it. 

[TrueTomHarley]

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I fell back on my original opinion that it was probably because no one was being all that supportive of the 2034 prediction,

I see you haven’t visit my gift shop to peruse my new line placard, sweatshirt, and accessories offerings: “2034 is the Door!”

I actually didn’t know you could take down your own thread. Comments, yes, but not the whole thread, and even comments only for a limited time. There are some turkeys of mine that long ago would have bit the dust had I known that.

[Srecko Sostar]

31 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

4 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I couldn’t care less about dates…..so give it a rest …no honest hearted true brother would do what you are doing to prove your personal point…you are relentless in your crusade…    you are like a a broken record and I for one no longer even read your ramblings and copy and pastes….

You told me that I needed to look again for something I hadn't remembered reading before. This doesn't mean that all this rambling and cutting and pasting is for you. I really doubted that anyone would take much of an interest. But as long as I am going through a lot of material again, I thought it best to share what I was finding. Especially because such a review is always an opportunity for me to pick up on several things I hadn't noticed before. And there's always a good chance that several of my conclusions are wrong, so I put a lot of them out their for public scrutiny, where they can be corrected by others.  I'm sure I'll also run across what I missed before (the passage that you saw) and I'd very much like to find it. 

Hi. This quote was made by @Thinking  not by me.  

[JW Insider]

25 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I actually didn’t know you could take down your own thread. Comments, yes, but not the whole thread, and even comments only for a limited time. There are some turkeys of mine that long ago would have bit the dust had I known that.

When I asked about it a few days ago, The Librarian had responded that it might be limited to just a few weeks, and after that, it's there forever (unless it's possible that you can convince an admin/moderator to do it for you?).