Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

As I've said before, you write something then you basically apologise for it. 

Basically, you are right. But I'm not apologizing for what I've written, but just the way some people would be expected to over-react to it.

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I cannot imagine God or Christ using Russell, going by what you've written. 

I can. Read about David, Moses, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Mark, Thomas, and James with John along with "Mrs." Zebedee.  People are complicated.  We can easily find fault but we need to balance the good they have done, too.

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Russell used what was supposed to be, God's way of 'getting His message to people, the Watchtower, to smear his wife's reputation.  What does that say about this man ? 

That he was a normal, sinful man, yet probably still much better than most men. But he seems to have been smitten with self-righteousness, or even "sons of Zebedee" syndrome. We can't judge his faults and prejudices outside the times he lived in and we can't impugn his convictions and his faith, nor his love for Jehovah and Christ Jesus. We can't read his heart. When I read a most of his Biblical commentary, even the chronology commentary that I disagree with, I would guess that his heart was definitely in the right place. His motives seem generally commendable. Outside of the commentary and exegesis forced by his faulty chronology, his writing is still valid and valuable.

When he used the Watchtower in such a petty way, to publicize only his side of a two-sided argument, and print supporting letters, he was doing the very thing he had complained that Barbour had done with the Herald. When Russell also began to use the Watch Tower funds as his means of support he was doing the same thing he had complained that Barbour had done. Did this make him a hypocrite? Or did Russell just change his view on such things? Russell actually ended up giving his one-sided view about 5 or 6 (read, "most") of his earliest editorial associates in the pages of the Watch Tower. (These were often in the "Harvest Siftings.") Rutherford used the magazine in the same way against all opposers to his 1917 presidency, denouncing the opposers the "evil slave." Similarly, for Salter, Moyle and a couple of others. I'm sure some also appreciate the fact that they both had the fortitude to stand for their convictions, and protect the editorial integrity of the Watch Tower. But we can look back now and see that that it wasn't even-handed. And we probably should never expect that it could have been even-handed.

To explain more fully my view of Russell, I think it is possible to make him sound much worse than I did. But I fear, you might have been the only one interested in any of those details. And I might be over-reaching and too judgmental. I'll definitely be considered imbalanced by those who disagree with me. My point is not to denounce him, but to avoid looking back with so many rose-colored filters that we forget he was just a man, a lot like any other man. 

It's dangerous, in my opinion, to come so close to teaching that a specific man did so much that his work fulfilled a specific Bible prophecy. That's the only reason I speak up about him like this at all. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Read about David, Moses, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Mark, Thomas, and James with John

This would probably be a seperate topic but I'd like to hear / read you thoughts on these men above mentioned.

David, adultery and murder, premeditated it would seem.  Moses lost his temper / self control maybe ?

But tell us about  the 'sins' of the others.  They were chosen by Jesus, to do a job. 

I've often read on here that the disciples / apostles 'were just as bad', but I've never seen real examples. 

Russell maybe chose himself, then called himself righteous ??   

I see the GB in that same light. Well maybe they choose each other, but then call themselves the F&DS and say that 'God and Christ trust them'.  That's a bit like calling themselves righteous.  It seemsto follow a pattern. 

18 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I fear, you might have been the only one interested in any of those details.

To be honest i care not about Russell in himself. I do find what you write interesting and that you do so much research. 

I find fault in the GB/ Org using Russell as part of it's history, because I think Russell would be totally adainst the JW Org. And I'm still interested in knowing more about the division, as the IBSA seems to still exist today. 

So to me the Watchtower,  JW Org or now the CCJW (whichever aka suits people) is a totally different thing to the 'religion' that Russell started. It would seem that Rutherford 'stole' the Watchtower, whether legally or not i don't know. And it would also seem that Rutherford was 'not a pleasant man'. 

Maybe Rutherford will be your next topic ?  Thank you for sharing all previous info'. Have a good day. 

 

[Witness]

13 hours ago, JW Insider said:

17 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I cannot imagine God or Christ using Russell, going by what you've written. 

I can. Read about David, Moses, Peter, Paul, Barnabas, Mark, Thomas, and James with John along with "Mrs." Zebedee.  People are complicated.  We can easily find fault but we need to balance the good they have done, too.

JWs have this habit of using David and his grave sin, as an example to excuse their leadership’s sins.  With David though, we have his documented expressions of great remorse spoken to God.  We have no expressions of remorse from any Wt. leader, only their examples of either hiding their sins, or making excuses for them.  I find it ironic that past articles in the Wt. will tell the story of a murderer being “saved” by the organization and he is received with open arms into the congregation. Wouldn't this past murderer be the example of repentance and not the example of sin?

Not so, with David.  He is usually shown up for his sins and never for his extensive documented request to God for repentance.  Likewise, the organization keeps a record of sin on all members, yet God in his mercy will forget our sins – only if we come to him in sincere repentance. 

Sinning against the Holy Spirit, the unforgiveable sin, has been committed by the organization since Rutherford, possibly before. (Matt 12:31) Ray Franz spoke truth, but he was disfellowshipped – considered dead in the eyes of God. (Luke 12:11,12; Matt 10:20) This has happened throughout  Wt’s history to anointed ones who had the Holy Spirit poured into their hearts.  Spiritual blood is on the hands of Wt’’s leadership. (Matt 23:33-36; Rev 17:3-6) Jesus spoke truth and he was killed for it, and they said he had a demon. I have been accused of the same thing here. (Matt 10:25)   It is a twisted concept that the leadership is righteous while unrepentant for their sins, yet any anointed priest who stands for truth and exposes lies, is the unrighteous one.  (Mark 3:28-30)

No, God does not consider the sins of a priest (if Russel was anointed) as forgotten, if he is never repentant before God and apologetic for the damage he has done to those whom he has taught.

No matter how much of what appears to be truth that he may have produced, he is still a bad “tree”.  (Matt 7:15-20)

 

 

https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/07/what-is-worst-sin-wt-has-done.html

[Witness]

7 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I see the GB in that same light. Well maybe they choose each other, but then call themselves the F&DS and say that 'God and Christ trust them'.  That's a bit like calling themselves righteous.  It seemsto follow a pattern. 

I found this quote from a Wt. when researching,

"Third, consider some of our recent refinements in understanding. For example, our clarified understanding of “the faithful and discreet slave,” published in the July 15, 2013, Watchtower, thrilled us. (Matt 24:45-47) It was explained that the faithful slave is the Governing Body, while the “domestics” are all those who are fed spiritually, whether of the anointed or of the “other sheep.” (John 10:16) What a delight it is to learn such truths and to teach them to new ones!  w15 3/15 p. 8-9

One set of scriptures apparently prove that these false prophets are the faithful and discreet slave.  How thrilling!

 

 “You have spoken arrogantly against me,” says the Lord.

“Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’

14 “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What do we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly evildoers prosper, and even when they put God to the test, they get away with it.’”

Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name.

17 “On the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty, “they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.  Mal 3:13-18

[Kick_Faceinator]

30 minutes ago, Witness said:

Jesus spoke truth and he was killed for it, and they said he had a demon. I have been accused of the same thing here.

You are in good company.

22 “Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.” Luke 6:22-23

[TrueTomHarley]

57 minutes ago, Witness said:

He is usually shown up for his sins and never for his extensive documented request to God for repentance. 

Oh, hogwash. He is all the time. Both aspects of his life have instructional value and both are often referred to.

57 minutes ago, Witness said:

Jesus spoke truth and he was killed for it, and they said he had a demon. I have been accused of the same thing here.

It is true that someone here who claimed to know you personally described you as “demon-possessed”  I admit that the thought had never occurred to me. JWI, to his ‘educated’ credit (or possibly naivety) restated the description  (if true) with medical terminology.

[Witness]

20 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

who claimed to know you personally

Really?  Maybe you or JWI can tell me the person's name.  No one here knows me personally.  

You've always been good at telling yarns.  🙂

[Witness]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh, hogwash. He is all the time. Both aspects of his life have instructional value and both are often referred to.

"All the time" is a bit over the top, but fair enough, I'll amend my previous statement:  

 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

He is usually shown up for his sins and never for his extensive documented request to God for repentance. 

To read...

JWs  show David up for his sins; and seldom, if any, for his extensive documented request to God for repentance.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

You are in good company.

22 “Blessed are you when people hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.” Luke 6:22-23

This Psalm seems to describe what the outcast, those who turn to Jesus Christ, (Heb 13:13), and perhaps including the victims of abuse and shunning, feel and believe regarding the trap they have left.

"Why, Lord, do you stand far off?
    Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?

2 In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak,
    who are caught in the schemes he devises.
3 He boasts about the cravings of his heart;  ("organization"
    he blesses the greedy and reviles the Lord.
4 In his pride the wicked man does not seek him;
    in all his thoughts there is no room for God. (How can there be, when an organization is exalted? Isa 46:5)
5 His ways are always prosperous;
    your laws are rejected by him;
    he sneers at all his enemies.
6 He says to himself, “Nothing will ever shake me.”
    He swears, “No one will ever do me harm.”

7 His mouth is full of lies and threats;
    trouble and evil are under his tongue.
8 He lies in wait near the villages;
    from ambush he murders the innocent.
His eyes watch in secret for his victims;
9     like a lion in cover he lies in wait.
He lies in wait to catch the helpless;
    he catches the helpless and drags them off in his net.
10 His victims are crushed, they collapse;
    they fall under his strength.  (Dan 8:13; 11:31; Matt 24:15,16; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:1-4; Rev 11:1,2)
11 He says to himself, “God will never notice;
    he covers his face and never sees.”

12 Arise, Lord! Lift up your hand, O God.
    Do not forget the helpless.
13 Why does the wicked man revile God?
    Why does he say to himself,
    “He won’t call me to account”?
14 But you, God, see the trouble of the afflicted;
    you consider their grief and take it in hand.
The victims commit themselves to you;
    you are the helper of the fatherless.
15 Break the arm of the wicked man;
    call the evildoer to account for his wickedness
    that would not otherwise be found out.

16 The Lord is King for ever and ever;
    the nations will perish from his land.
17 You, Lord, hear the desire of the afflicted;
    you encourage them, and you listen to their cry,
18 defending the fatherless and the oppressed,
    so that mere earthly mortals
    will never again strike terror."  Ps 10

I found this to be a good audio reading - https://www.biblegateway.com/audio/suchet/nivuk/Ps.10

 

How is the Kingdom Like Fish Caught in a Net?

 

 

[Thinking]

7 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Oh, hogwash. He is all the time. Both aspects of his life have instructional value and both are often referred to.

It is true that someone here who claimed to know you personally described you as “demon-possessed”  I admit that the thought had never occurred to me. JWI, to his ‘educated’ credit (or possibly naivety) restated the description  (if true) with medical terminology.

Anyone who follows or teaches Pearls thoughts or woman in the wilderness…are without doubt being directed by the demons…as Pearl is..

I Have blocked witness for this reason To So I’m just going by your answers to some one….Anyone who admits they do not study the scriptures at all but sit with pen in hand and writes answers to questions..not knowing what they will actually write is engaging in automatic writing…or channeling …it is not fromJehovah…as Jehovah has told us to SEARCH AND look as if looking for a treasure….he wants effort from us to work out his words…he expected it from the apostles as he does now from ANYONE who wants answers from the scriptures …

Yes I knew Pearl Personally..and she is a lovely lady….also known by her website….woman in the wilderness…...but nevertheless…what she teaches is without doubt  demon inspired …..and highly dangerous as is anyone who follows her or teaches what she teaches…

Im guessing witness and some others will respond to this…waste of time if it’s for my eyes as I don t read any thing written by you….or some others…

 

 

[Kick_Faceinator]

6 hours ago, Witness said:

This Psalm seems to describe what the outcast, those who turn to Jesus Christ, (Heb 13:13), and perhaps including the victims of abuse and shunning, feel and believe regarding the trap they have left.

I take comfort in that Psalm, thank you. I also take comfort in the time prophesied when Jesus Christ comes back and brings joy to Christ's brothers and sisters who have wrongfully been disfellowshipped for stating nothing but truth, and shame upon those who lawlessly disfellowshipped them. 

“Hear the word of Jehovah, you who tremble at his word: “Your brothers who hate you and exclude you [disfellowship you] because of my name said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified! ’But He [Jesus Christ] will appear and bring you joy, And they [The men who have disfellowshipped Christ's brothers] are the ones who will be put to shame.” Isaiah 66:5

Being persecuted by Spiritual Israel isn’t so bad, it’s got it’s perks.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Anyone who follows or teaches Pearls thoughts or woman in the wilderness…are without doubt being directed by the demons…as Pearl is..

I Have blocked witness for this reason To So I’m just going by your answers to some one….Anyone who admits they do not study the scriptures at all but sit with pen in hand and writes answers to questions..not knowing what they will actually write is engaging in automatic writing…or channeling …it is not fromJehovah…

This is not for “Thinking” as that would be a waste of time.  Divine inspiration and “automatic writing” are two different things.  If Pearl was under the blind influence of demons who used her specifically to perform automatic writing, then why must she continually edit what she writes and fine tune her writing by the addition of more scriptures?  Prophesy is given by God, a gift in the Body of Christ.  (1 Cor 12:28,29)  Just because the GB admit they are not inspired by Holy Spirit, does not mean no one else, is.  Just because the GB continually blow it, in their understanding, doesn't mean God hasn't sent a "faithful" slave to get it right.  By the way, Pearl was also tossed out/disfellowshipped for speaking truth.  

In 2002, the organization referenced the work of the last “Elijah” as the “restoration of pure worship”, a work performed by all JWs in their preaching work. They were called the modern day “Elijah class”. Since then, I see no mention of an “Elijah” appearing in the last days.  If I remember right, they have also dropped assigning themselves as a prophet’s “class”; such as “Ezekiel class”, “Jeremiah class”, etc.  However, this cannot erase the scriptural fact that an “Elijah” does appear before the end.  

And the disciples asked him, saying, “Then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 And he answered and said, “Elijah indeed is coming, and will restore all things.”  Matt 17:10

Both the prophet Elijah and John the Baptist were specifically sent to God’s people under covenant.  They were given spiritual perception (as all prophets sent by God,  are given) to declare their sins and acts of idolatry, preaching the need to repent and turn back to God. (Mal 3:1-3; Zech 13:9) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mal.3%3A1-3%3B+Zech.13%3A9&version=NIV

The work of the last prophet to come in the spirit and power of “Elijah”, follows a similar pattern as both Elijah and John the Baptist.  This message is also specifically directed to God’s spiritual “Israel”, His priesthood under the New Covenant. (Matt 25:6; Luke 21:36; Rev 8:6; Jer 6:17) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+25%3A6%3B+Luke+21%3A36%3B+Rev+8%3A6%3B+Jer+6%3A17&version=NIV

(Deut 10:8; 18:5; 21:5; 1 Cor 6:2; Heb 8:5; Rev 5:10; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Mal 2:7) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut+10%3A8%3B+18%3A5%3B+21%3A5%3B+1+Cor+6%3A2%3B+Heb+8%3A5%3B+Rev+5%3A10%3B+1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%3B+Mal+2%3A7&version=NIV

They have failed to serve God, “in spirit and truth”.  (John 4:23,24; Matt 25:25,26; Rev 3:2,3; Matt 25:5,6,7,13; Heb 6:12) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+4%3A23%2C24%3B+Matt+25%3A25%2C26%3B+Rev+3%3A2%2C3%3B+Matt+25%3A5%2C6%2C7%2C13%3B+Heb+6%3A12&version=NIV

 Those residing with them, should also respond to the message (Dan 12:1-3; Zech 8:23; Luke 1:17; Matt 10:40-42; John 7:38; 1 Cor 14:25; Rev 22:17). https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan+12%3A1-3%3B+Zech+8%3A23%3B+Luke+1%3A17%3B+Matt+10%3A40-42%3B+John+7%3A38%3B+1+Cor+14%3A25%3B+Rev+22%3A17&version=NIV

The last “Elijah”, and the inspired message of the last prophet appears among God’s people in the last days.  This trumpet call is for God’s priests of His spiritual Temple to prepare their hearts for the return of Jesus Christ.  (Ezek 33:6;Isa 40:3; Isa 58:1; Joel 2:1; Matt 24:31;25:6; Rev 11:1-3; Rev 22:6)  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezek+33%3A6%3BIsa+40%3A3%3B+Isa+58%3A1%3B+Joel+2%3A1%3B+Matt+24%3A31%3B25%3A6%3B+Rev+11%3A1-3%3B+Rev+22%3A6++&version=NIV

As an anointed who has been blessed to see the understanding of the “man of lawlessness”, and Revelation's two beasts; and who declare the sins of “Israel”, she does not harbor a demon.  Again just as Jesus was accused of harboring a demon, obviously, Pearl is also accused of this. 

However, concerning this automatic writing/channeling, an ex-Bethel member has a lot say about it happening in Bethel.  He was given scriptures from Gen 28:10-15 by a "channeler"..  The explanation of those scripture is an evil dichotomy of the truth. Here, is the truth,  http://jacobsladder-obadiah.blogspot.com/

And here is the video.  If the man he spoke to had “notebook after notebook of this stuff”, why does he keep his “knowledge” to himself?  Why doesn't he share it with the GB? 

Or, maybe he does, and that's why they keep blowing it.