How would solid, controvertible evidence of Extraterrestrial Aliens affect your Theology?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 7/8/2021 at 10:34 AM, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

Now if you are willing help me with this "bantering" thing, just know that for all of my life, I have never been able to tap into that place of realizing or knowing the difference between bantering ( which = fun ) and bullying. ( which = abusive. 😥 a tearing away at one's soul )

Tom is a bully to those that 'frighten him' when they can prove how wrong the GB / Watchtower / JW Org, have been or are being.  Tom hates that wall of deceit (that the GB build) being torn down. Arauna is the same. 

( JWs seem to treat victims of CSA as just collateral damage, and JWs just push those victims to one side in their minds. )

( JWs also don't like 'true Truth' about the Org being known. Truth about misuse of scripture and misuse of authority. )

Tom is quite insulting for a man that thinks he is a Christian, and he doesn't offer much in a spiritual way.

He is honest enough though, to admit that he uses this blog to gain material for his 'books'. Books which i think he is now trying to sell. So I've stopped taking him seriously as a contributor to the forum and now see him as a sort of leech just grabbing what he can for himself. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

19 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

My practice here is to divide people into three classes. 1) those who have tasted and seen that Jehovah is good, 2) those who have tasted and seen that he is bad, and 3) those who have never tasted. It is an application on Psalm 34:8: “Taste and see that Jehovah is good, O YOU people; Happy is the able-bodied man that takes refuge in him.”

Here is an example of Tom's misuse of scripture. 

You will see that Tom is slyly pretending that those that have left the JW Org, have left God and Christ. This of course is a GB teaching. JWs are taught that anyone that leaves the Org has left God and Christ. 

However, many people that leave the JW org, and even some that were d/fed ( by being misjudged by the Elders )  still want to be close to God and Christ. Hence some on here, including myself, are still studying  God's word, and still pray to God through Christ. 

Happy is the able-bodied man that takes refuge in him.  Yes indeed, Happy is the person that takes refuge in God through Christ.  

 

[Srecko Sostar]

What WTJWorg calls “extraterrestrial” goes in two directions of interpretation. One is that they are spiritual creatures, actually angels, because they live outside the realm of the Earth. The second assumption is that it could be the same as on Earth, only so - people like Adam and Eve but on some other planet.

But in the continuation of the article, they directly deny the possibility that God created another Adam and Eve on another planet. And they confirm this with the words: The Bible indicates that it is very unlikely that God at this point has created intelligent physical creatures on any planets other than our own.

Please nicely, what kind of proof and fact is that in fact. Nowhere in the Bible is there a claim or indication that refutes or proves "extraterrestrial life" in any elementary/ material /physical form. The explanations they offers are based solely on the word IF. And then they continue with the imagination, but they also do it with a limited imagination. Because they and their explanations are limited to some earthly events and circumstances. Again, a linear thinking comes to the fore that, due to a theological limitation, does not allow them the idea that their God is outside their human framework.

When they use Isaiah 43:10, they do so in an unimaginably wrong way. These words are more an expression of poetry and the establishment of some special relationship between the two sides. Come on, please nicely read it over and over again. So, how could the Israelites be witnesses that God has always been and will always be. They have lived several decades of their lives so they cannot witness any events before their birth or after their death. They can bear no witness to the eternity and uniqueness of one God. They can only be witnesses to the covenant relationship that was established through their patriarchs and representatives.

The same passage from Isaiah 43:10 is used for "extraterrestrial people". What madness. How could some, supposedly obedient people on another planet who knows where in the space, they could have witnessed for people on this planet? Quote: would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify. This would mean that God would bring and present these witnesses from that other planet here on Earth. Otherwise, maybe when the space technology of both planets evolves so much that people on them will be able to communicate and share experiences. But other than that, what would Adam and Eve on a planet tens of light-years away from Adam and Eve on this Earth have in common? Except for the same Creator? Why do JW think that the sin of Adam and Eve on this planet should have any consequences for these other people elsewhere?
These Adam and Eve of ours did not raise the universal question of who has the right to rule the world and who should be obeyed in the whole universe. They used the gift that the same God gave them - free will. They violated the direct order and endured the consequences. Someone else came up with the idea that this raised an issue that has fatal consequences for the entire universe about which (the universe) WTJWorg knows nothing. Nor will they learn about the universe from the Bible, because as they themselves say the Bible is not a “scientific manual”. If we want to address devil for "universal issue" that will be more appropriate. Not Adam And Eve. They and people on Earth are so limited with Earth's gravitation for raising this "issue" in Universe. Just recently they developed space program and try to explore out of Earth. But that is not important because "universal issue" as was explained in WTJWorg took place with Serpent, Adam, Eve and Tree before cca 6000 years.  

The Bible Answers

According to the Bible, extraterrestrial life not only exists but exists in abundance. It is more complex, more interesting, and more believable than anything that evolutionists, science-fiction writers, and moviemakers have dreamed up. After all, an extraterrestrial is simply a being who originates outside this earth and its atmosphere..........

Some influential religious figures have insisted that God would not create any world without purpose and that all habitable worlds must therefore be inhabited. Is that what the Bible says? No. The Bible indicates that it is very unlikely that God at this point has created intelligent physical creatures on any planets other than our own. How so?

If God did create such beings, he did so before he created Adam and Eve. Such beings either remained faithful to their Creator, or like Adam and Eve, they sinned and fell into imperfection.

But if they became imperfect, they needed a redeemer. As one essayist put it: “One has this dreadful thought that on Friday [the day Jesus Christ was executed], every Friday, somewhere in the universe Jesus is being hanged high for someone’s sins.” But that is not Scriptural. The Bible tells us that Jesus “died with reference to sin once for all time.”—Romans 6:10.

What if these beings had remained perfect? Well, when Adam and Eve sinned, they were, in effect, questioning God’s right to rule over a world of intelligent physical beings. If another planet existed at that time, a world full of intelligent physical beings who were living harmoniously and loyally under God’s rule, would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify that God’s rule does indeed work? This conclusion seems inescapable, since he has already used even imperfect humans as witnesses in his behalf on that very issue.—Isaiah 43:10. -https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101990244

 

[Matthew9969]

The question makes me think of Carl Sagan's Contact, if you haven't read it I recommend it, or at least I liked it and the movie adaptation as well.

Sagan brings up this subject in a way. There will be groups of Christians who will think the visitors are satan and his demons, (although I've never seen a picture of a demon shaped like a flying object). Then there will be the new age Christians who will think they are angelic messengers. Then there will be other Christians like me who will wait until we have contact and find out about their intentions.

But as a side question...if their intentions are to subjugate the human race or want our planet, will it be biblically wrong to defend ourselves via the war machine? 

[TrueTomHarley]

24 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

will it be biblically wrong to defend ourselves via the war machine? 

Yes. The plan to demolish earth to make way for the new intergalactic highway has been on the books for 10,000 years. There has been plenty of time to speak out against it, and if you can’t be bothered to participate in civil affairs, its a little too late to be unsporting about it at the last minute.

[Srecko Sostar]

AFTERNOON

1:35 Music-Video Presentation

1:45 Song No. 2

1:50 SYMPOSIUM: Use Creation to Build Your Faith

• Stars (Isaiah 40:26) 

“Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.Who has created these things?aIt is the One who brings out their army by number;He calls them all by name.bBecause of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power,cNot one of them is missing.

Kenneth Flodin gave new approach to understanding about stars. So, from the aspect of scientific knowledge, stars have their own lifespan, they are not eternal. The stars “explode” at some point. This is also assumed for our Sun, which will cease to exist in a few billion years.
Now, if God created the stars and gave them names, and none of them ever ceased to exist according to the words of the Bible, then today’s scientific knowledge is incorrect. 

But now Kenneth Flodin appears on the scene, who does not oppose today's science knowledge about/of the stars, already gives a new interpretation of a biblical passage that reconciles it with science. KF does not deny that stars “die”. He does not deny that the stars are “missing”. He comes to a compromise solution between the religious and the scientific.

It provides believers with a satisfactory explanation in which two different and opposing settings can coexist. But he goes further than that. He begins to use this "new explanation of truth" or so called  "beliefs  clarified", to strengthen the believers' hope in the resurrection of the dead.

So, KF summarizes that the star is “dead and missing,” but only in a literal sense. Actually that is an insignificant fact. What is more important is the claim that this star is still alive. And imagine where and how. In God's memory. So, all dead sparrows also live in God's memory. And all the lizards and all the worms, and so on. But to all the happiness and joy of Kenneth and most JWs, God will not deal with the resurrection of stars, sparrows, lizards and worms or our pets, but only with the resurrection of dead people.
We should not enter into God's choice of who will be resurrected and when, but we should certainly be careful when GB introduces a new interpretation of a biblical text/verse that either insufficiently or incorrectly showed "the truth" about the stars in time of Isaiah, or was poorly translated, or misrepresented God's relationship to the stars. Or Isaiah may not have been very inspired as he wrote this line. Or was it just a poetic expression that speaks of the sublimity of God, not that the stars will never disappear (literally or in memory).
This example of the one biblical verse, WTJWorg and our religious or other beliefs that stem from this kind of perception and understanding of the words in the Bible, should be a reason for us to be more careful about what we actually want to believe.

 

[Matthew9969]

22 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes. The plan to demolish earth to make way for the new intergalactic highway has been on the books for 10,000 years. There has been plenty of time to speak out against it, and if you can’t be bothered to participate in civil affairs, its a little too late to be unsporting about it at the last minute.

Was that before or after How to Cook Humans cookbook came out?

[TrueTomHarley]

48 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

Was that before or after How to Cook Humans cookbook came out?

Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

[Pudgy]

15 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Was that before or after How to Cook Humans cookbook came out?

The story "To Serve Man" by Damon Knight was originally published in "Galaxy Science Fiction" magazine in November 1950, and an adaptation was made for the "Twilight Zone" on March 2, 1962, on CBS TV.

"Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy", by Douglas Adams  was originally a BBC comedy radio show which first aired in 1978, and the Novel was published in 1979

No mention in either titles, radio show, or books was the date 1975.

 

 

 

 

[Witness]

On 7/13/2021 at 11:06 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

This example of the one biblical verse, WTJWorg and our religious or other beliefs that stem from this kind of perception and understanding of the words in the Bible, should be a reason for us to be more careful about what we actually want to believe.

Yes, and there doesn’t have to be a contradiction to the scientific understanding of stars, if Mr. Flodin understood the spiritual meaning of the stars in the scriptures.  He used,

Neh 9:6- You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

He said it referred the multitudes as the holy angels of God.  Well, angels are messengers. (Greek meaning) God’s messengers of the New Covenant under Jesus Christ, are the anointed. (Mal 2:7; Heb 1:14)  This can refer to those sealed symbolic “144,000” "angels" who are of “heaven”.

“But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ²⁴ to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”  Heb 12:23,24

They are also, the “stars” found in many scriptures.

Phil 2:14,15 -  ’Do everything without grumbling and arguing, so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world, by holding firm to the word of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn’t run or labor for nothing.

 This following scripture is used by the other David Attenborough, in their illustrious presentation of the stars in the universe (I have heard a few people elsewhere noticing Wt’s choice to pick a close second to the original David. Couldn’t that be called a suggestive cheap trick?)

“He determines the number of the stars
    and calls them each by name.

Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
    his understanding has no limit.”  Ps 147:4,5

If He can number every hair on our head, of course He knows the number of literal stars present at any given time in the heavens. But, doesn’t it make more sense that God is “calling” a person by name, whom He compares to the stars in heaven?  Rom 1:1,6,7; Rev `17:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A1%2C6%2C7%3B+Rev+`17%3A14+&version=NKJV

To Abraham, he said - Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”  Gen 15;5  (Gen 26:4)

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? (The anointed are also, God’s “land” - 1 Cor 3:9-11) 
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
⁵ Who determined its measurements? 
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it? (Zech 2:1,2; Isa 28:17; Rev 11:1)
⁶ To what were its foundations fastened?  (Prov 9:1; 1 Tim 3:15; Rev 3:12)
Or who laid its cornerstone, (Isa 28:16; Matt 21:42; 1 Pet 2:4-8)
⁷ When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Eph 2:19-22; Gal 3:26-29; Rev 19:1)

Jesus is the morning star. (Rev 22:16) If the anointed remain attached to the vine of light and truth, they also will shine like the stars in his right hand.  (Matt 5:14,15; John 15:4; Rev 1:20)

I can't believe the Wt. teaches that the elders are those stars in Rev 1:20.  How blasphemous.  Actually, I can believe it.

Eph 2:6 – “He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus”

“Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.”  Dan 12:3

But, the governing leaders won’t appreciate or share the spiritual symbolism of God’s stars, sun, moon and earth.  Instead, these fallen “star”/ leaders (Rev 8:10,11) are responsible for releasing their army to “trample” these stars/anointed under the feet of the “man of lawlessness”/elder body. (Rev 9:1-4,7-11; 2 Thess 2:1-4)

Dan 8:9 describes this man of sin as a “little horn” that emerges from the head of the Beast/organization of Rev 13:1,2.  It “grew exceedingly great” toward the “Beautiful Land”. (Joel 1:6; 2:3; Joel 3:2) Of course, that “land”, is another illustrative term describing God’s anointed under covenant – His “special possession” where His spirit dwells in each of their hearts.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17)  The elder body’s presence supersedes that of the anointed priesthood/Temple of God. 

“And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.”  Dan 8:10  (Rev 12:4)

“Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; *But he shall be broken without human means*.”  Dan 8:25

 "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 

8 *And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.*   2 Thess 2:4,8 

It is a quite the cunning trick to speak about the rebellion of Korah who desired to secure the priesthood, and without skipping a beat, turn around and say, “representing the royal priesthood is the elder body….rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders!”

 

Who is the Fallen "Star" of Rev 12:4?