Was Jesus Anointed at His baptism ?

[Space Merchant]

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Everybody's 'facts' are different. Hence you are not a JW.

Yet these facts are based off of scripture, legitimate Hermeneutics, which isn't isolated to JWs, just Anti-Trinitarianism in general who are aware of the Firstfruits and Jesus' status. If the latter followed Trinitarianism, then things would be wildly different.

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

If, as it seems, no one is inspired of God's Holy Spirit right now, then it would seem that no one knows true facts..

The real question is how do you know who has asked for the spirit, an who has not? Would it not be wise to adhere to 1 John 4:1? Mainly if the Hermeneutics on the latter is accurate?

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

And even amongst the JWs on here they disagree on facts. 

What do they disagree with if they themselves are Anti-Trinitarians? If I am not mistaken, they understand what and who are the Firstfruits as is the core teachings of the Kingdom, hence their other focus on 144,000 individuals who make up that group.

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

But if you want scriptural fact, then it seems Jesus said, recorded at Luke 17 : 21

Berean Literal Bible
nor will they say, 'Behold here,' or 'There.' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." 

You just quoted the verse, not taking in the context.

The most simplest answer is - Jesus telling the Jewish leaders they stand before God's chosen, the very one who will eventually be installed as King in God's Kingdom after the conclusion of End Times, and all things connected to it.

First, Jesus, who might be in North Samaria or Galilee at the time, was talking to the Pharisees, which is evident due to pervious verse, Luke 17:20, which can be compared to Matthew 23:13 and they, the Pharisees, were talking to him because they asked him about the arrival of the Kingdom.

We already know Jesus is the one chosen for Kingship by God, and eventually be seated in the Kingdom after all is set and done.

It can be said that - The Kingdom of God is in their midst because the chosen King of God’s Kingdom, Jesus, is right there in front of them, hence the following verse:

Matthew 21:5 - Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on a donkey, on a colt,1 the foal of a beast of burden.’ ”

Not only was he, Christ Jesus, was present before them, he also had power and authority to perform works by means of utilizing what God has given him, as is with the preparation of those chosen for the coming Kingdom (Luke 22:29-30).

Also safe to say, according to the context, the Kingdom will not come in an obvious manner as the latter believed in such. More to note, the one who is to sit at the Throne of David was made superior much later on.

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

So, how can you say that the Kingdom did not exist whilst Jesus walked this Earth, when Jesus said it did. 

If you understood the verse, Jesus, whom is God's chosen for the Kingdom, was standing in front of, and speaking to Pharisees who asked him a question about the Kingdom.

That being said, better to take in all context of the passage itself and understand what it is conveying, in turn, you learn what the verse that is within the passage means. As I mentioned before to some - Never sacrifice a passage for a single verse.

If there is no contextual understanding, there is no understanding of the verse, which evidently, the one who is reading becomes null from the facts itself.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

It can be said that - The Kingdom of God is in their midst because the chosen King of God’s Kingdom, Jesus, is right there in front of them, hence the following verse:

Matthew 21:5 - Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold, your king is coming to you, humble, and mounted on a donkey, on a colt,1 the foal of a beast of burden.’ ”

This seems to prove exactly what I was saying, that Jesus WAS King whilst HE was on Earth.  

You seem to be saying that Jesus could say those things because He would be King in the future. 

We must therefore agree to differ on this matter.

As for reading the scripture in context, of course I did. And I fully understand whom He was talking to and why.  Maybe next time I should quote a whole chapter should I ? 

I took the meme at the bottom of your comment as a personal insult so I will not bother to converse with you again. I thought you were above such things.  You choosing to insult me with the actions of a 'man of colour' because you are such, is leaning toward racism in my opinion. 

 

[Anna]

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

that the kingdom in all its fullness begins in 33CE. It makes no sense at all to me to think we have been in the last days for 1/3 of recorded history,

Doesn't make sense to me either, this is why I began wondering about how these various scriptures regarding Jesus' kingship could be explained as a whole. I got to thinking about the main purpose of God's kingdom, (as opposed to the other administrations) the one Jesus asked us to pray for, the one that would be the tool to reconcile all things to God, the one that was indirectly referred to in the garden of Eden (when Jehovah said Satan would be bruised in the head) as the solution for putting right what Adam made wrong.

There is no denying that the scriptures say that all things were subjected to Jesus as King when he returned to heaven. But for Jesus to ask his followers to pray for this particular kingdom, God's Kingdom, I think that would make no sense if it already existed since 33CE. True, we were asked to pray for his will to be done on earth as in heaven, so the kingdom could be said to have already been existing, just not exercising dominion over the earth yet, but to me it seems to fit better that it came into existence at the harvest time, since that was one of the purposes of God's Kingdom....to gather the things on the earth. Of course it fits our JW history very well, with the "flashes of truth" "rattling of the bones" etc. (And dare I say it, with WW1....1914)

Revelation also talks about the birth of the Kingdom (God's Kingdom). Something that occurred at a point in history, with Jesus becoming king of that kingdom. I don't see that Revelation has to necessarily be talking about it happening in the 1st century....

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

recall something was written about “the kingdom of the son of his love” into which believers were transferred into.

Yes I have heard that too. So there is another type of kingdom....

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Does this ‘kingdom within a kingdom’ (like a Matryoshka doll!) account for these verses? Did JWI address that?

Lol. 

I am not sure if @JW Insideraddressed it, if not, I hope he does! 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I took the meme at the bottom of your [Space Merchant] comment as a personal insult so I will not bother to converse with you again. I thought you were above such things.  

I too was shocked and aghast that Space Merchant would stoop so low. Bad, Space Merchant bad! No donut for you!

That said, it was a running GIF. As soon as i can figure out how to do it myself….

[Space Merchant]

2 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

This seems to prove exactly what I was saying, that Jesus WAS King whilst HE was on Earth.  

The verse you cited was regarding that put prior you were talking about the ideology of JWs and or Anti-Trinitarians concerning 1914.

2 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

As for reading the scripture in context, of course I did. And I fully understand whom He was talking to and why.  Maybe next time I should quote a whole chapter should I ? 

Your latter statement was in regards to coming of the Kingdom and the chosen, hence the response.

No, you don't have to quote the whole passage.

2 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I took the meme at the bottom of your comment as a personal insult so I will not bother to converse with you again. I thought you were above such things.  You choosing to insult me with the actions of a 'man of colour' because you are such, is leaning toward racism in my opinion. 

The gif was not a means of an insult, it was in regards to my quotation concerning contextual understanding when it comes to facts. If I have to check someone, it would be in a refutation, not a discussion on neutral footing.

If a small sense of humor regarding quotation has you in this mood, then I see that has concerning, I recommend you look the fruits of the spirit.

A meme does not denote to racism... The irony is, contextual understanding can be used here for, the fact you didn't get the quote and it's connection to a gif.

The definition of racism is very obvious, and I rather not check you on that with educational intent. So I pity you and leave it at that. However it does call into question how you concluded to that conclusion based on a gif; which I find interesting, but I leave it at that.

That being said, regarding the coming of the Kingdom, what is said points the context points to, hence you did speak of this prior.

[Space Merchant]

@TrueTomHarley Unfortunately he didn't get the gif was connected to the quotation about taking in context.

@Anna Then there is the time period itself that is in connection with Jesus' Kingship and the Kingdom to come itself, outside of the notion of the chosen Firstfruits/Anointed Ones. For in the theology of the JW faith it is noted that in Daniel chapter 4, it was prophesied that a period of 2,520 years, from 607 BC, The Siege/Fall of Jerusalem up to until 1914, which in turn, equates to the Gentile Times. On the other side of the spectrum, you have the 587 camp vs the 607 camp in this regard.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, Anna said:

) the one Jesus asked us to pray for

Did Jesus ask 'us' to pray for it, or did Jesus ask his Apostles (and maybe the rest of the Anointed) to pray for it ? 

15 hours ago, Anna said:

There is no denying that the scriptures say that all things were subjected to Jesus as King when he returned to heaven.

Jesus told His disciples/apostles that ALL authority HAD been given to Him after His resurrection. That was before He returned to heaven.

Matthew 28 : 18 & 19

Berean Study Bible
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Berean Study Bible
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Don't JWs believe these things ? 

 

 

 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

15 hours ago, Anna said:

but to me it seems to fit better that it came into existence at the harvest time,

But didn't the harvest start whilst Jesus was on Earth. 

Matthew 9 : 37 - 38

Berean Study Bible
Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.

Berean Study Bible
Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest.”

Could there be two harvests ? One for the Anointed, and one for the 'little dogs' / earthly class. 

Jesus said, recorded at John 10 : 16

Berean Study Bible
I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Witness]

On 7/26/2021 at 12:57 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

A question or two.

The Anointed are 'a temple' 'the temple'  each one is an individual temple' ???

1 Corinthians 6:19

Berean Literal Bible
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have from God? And you are not your own,
 

1 Peter 2 : 9

Berean Study Bible
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Revelation 1 : 5b - 6

To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— ⁶  and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

The original 'Temple' was of course a physical building. But what it the spiritual Temple ?

Is this 'new' Temple the same as the Kingdom ?  Or is each individual Anointed one a separate Temple ?

Is there 144,000 temples that make up the Kingdom, or is it one Temple ? 

 

Well, we know that the ancient physical temples were sacred because they signified the presence of God among His people. But more than that, He allowed His Spirit to “fill the Temple” as we see in Solomon’s dedication of the temple he built. (2Chron 5:13,14)   His Spirit also filled the early moveable tabernacle, and He dwelt with His people.  (Exod 25:8)

It is the same with the anointed as God’s Temple.  Individually, they are the temple, since their heart is the home/ dwelling of God’s Spirit. (John 14:17; 1 Cor 3:16; Rom 8:9,11) But, as “living stones” they also together, are part of and represent the entire Temple. (1 Pet 2:Eph 2:22; Heb 3:6)

In the Kingdom of God, His Spirit will “dwell” with mankind again, but through the anointed/Bride and Jesus Christ.  The symbolic "144,000" can be compared to mobile tabernacles carrying the Spirit and knowledge of God; but joined together, they are “New Jerusalem/Zion/Temple of God with Jesus Christ.   (Rev 22:3; 7:15)

Elders will not be representing New Jerusalem on earth.  They represent an earthly organization, not the Temple of God.  This organization will not exist in the Kingdom. (Isa 43:21,10; 1 Pet 2:5,10)   It will be the anointed  - a “new creation”, both spirit and human, who with Jesus their “husband”,  will bring the Spirit and knowledge from God, to earth. (1 Cor 5:17; Gen 28:12; John 1:51) (John 16:28; Heb 1:6) (Mal 2:7; Rev 5:9,10; Heb 1:14; Rev 22:17)   

 Didn’t Jesus do just that when on earth?  He brought the Spirit of God and wisdom of His word, to mankind.  He will do that again in the Kingdom. 

I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

³ I heard a loud voice from the throne say,

“See, the tent of God is among humans!
    He will make his home with them,
        and they will be his people.
God himself will be with them,
    and he will be their God. “

 

I.“tent” -
“tent, tabernacle,

of that well known movable temple of God after the pattern of which the temple at Jerusalem was built

 

I don’t know if this helps with the connection, but as an example…there are over 60 power poles that must be replaced between where we live and the next small village because of the forest fire that just occurred.   Upon seeing employees working on the lines, one could easily say, the power company is here.  The individual workers represent the power company, but also are part of the entire power company.  Through their presence we can conceptualize the power company as a whole.  If they have the power company’s logo on their shirt, well then, we may say they are the power company. 

 

[Witness]

On 7/26/2021 at 9:04 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Are you sure they’re on your side? Hard to believe it is the Devil.

They are busy guys with family and work responsibilities.   Pranksters, they aren't.  Protectors, yes.  

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Well, we know that the ancient physical temples were sacred because they signified the presence of God among His people. But more than that, He allowed His Spirit to “fill the Temple” as we see in Solomon’s dedication of the temple he built. (2Chron 5:13,14)   His Spirit also filled the early moveable tabernacle, and He dwelt with His people.  (Exod 25:8)

It is the same with the anointed as God’s Temple.  Individually, they are the temple, since their heart is the home/ dwelling of God’s Spirit. (John 14:17; 1 Cor 3:16; Rom 8:9,11) But, as “living stones” they also together, are part of and represent the entire Temple. (1 Pet 2:Eph 2:22; Heb 3:6)

This excellent explanation give so strong and irrefragable argument against GB unreasonable ideas of how people today cannot be inspired by HS. GB’s silly replacement of the thesis that they are “guided” by the spirit is nothing more than an attempt to justify every nonsense they teach people while remaining in positions of power and authority, they and their elders. I believe that for HS there is no obstacle to “filling the heart” of every individual to whom the Father shows love, whether he/she belongs to a "large or a small flock".

[Kick_Faceinator]

19 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The Siege/Fall of Jerusalem up to until 1914, which in turn, equates to the Gentile Times.

The gentile times are 42 months and happen in the lords day, not 2520 years prior.

“By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet” Revelation 1:10

That’s when John saw Jerusalem being trampled for a symbolic 42 months:

“But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city [the anointed] underfoot for 42 months” Revelation 11:2

The apostles asked when will these things actually be: “Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be [future tense], and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?” Luke 21:7

Jesus was informing his apostles that all these things will happen during the Lords day/Jesus presence/parousia. 

One of the signs of Jesus presence is that Jerusalem/the anointed are being trampled…

“They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be [future tense] trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled [gentile times are 42 months].” Luke 21:24. This is harmonious with Revelation 11:2.