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Interesting thought about the initial rebellion


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6 minutes ago, Arauna said:

You are absolutely nuts if you think you can win anything!

I agree, as Jehovah is invulnerable, and cannot be harmed in any way.

He is not even in this physical Universe.

I think you misunderstood that I was advocating rebellion against Jehovah God.

I was not.

I was trying to describe what would be the ONLY excuse for rebellion, which of course would be impossible.

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I was. I did. He wasn’t. You’re wrong. It’s his heart that it never came up into, his center of motivation. It is the furthest thing from what he would ever do. It’s not that he can’t imagine it. There is division among translators over this verse. Someone want to spend some time looking into this? I’ll take the NWT any day in this case. It dovetails far better with everything else we know of God. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hid

The author is clearly responding to new evidence that Satan worships Hillary Clinton.

The bible indicates that Satan knows that Jehovah exists and shudders - but he does not obey.  It is like a child that is on drugs and destroys his own life in front of a parent.  Satan has seen the power of Jehovah - but it is rarely used destructively. Satan is the father of death and destruction, lies and deceit.  He knows that Jehovah is his creator but will spread lies to humankind about it.  Anything which takes away the honor from Jehovah whether it is atheism or false philosophy

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6 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

time and space are one thing

Time and space is dimensions of the physical universe which Jehovah created. jehovah created the entire universe with his dynamic energy according to Isaiah 40 when talking about the stars by name he speak of the energy or power which brought them forth.  This power is his active force - a moving energy or force. All physical matter consist of energy.  Burn anything on this planet and it emits energy.  Jehovah's energy also keeps all in place and alive.  If he removes his energy the entire universe will collapse.

Other dimensions are non-physical - where angels can move faster than the speed of light. 

There are different forms of energy in our universe - magnetic, positive, negative energy and gravity is a force

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5 minutes ago, Arauna said:
36 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Moloch truly surprised even Jehovah, and that he learned new things from that,

No - he was not surprised, just bringing justice for the large numbers of of children murdered  in the name of false gods.

You are wrong Arauna .... the Scripture clearly states that it never came into Jehovah's mind that they would do such a thing as sacrifice their own children, burning them to death.

Be a sport ... look it up.

Jehovah was surprised!

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Just now, Pudgy said:

Scripture clearly states that it never came into Jehovah's mind that they would do such a thing

It does not mean that he did not foresee the possibility.  The same with Jesus - he moved amongst harlots and sinners.  He often must have seen the possibility of doing wrong but he immediately shunned the ideas such as when Satan tempted him. 

Being perfect does not mean we cannot see the possibility of something - but the perfect person is moved by choice and chooses correctly. and morally

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2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

If he removes his energy the entire universe will collapse.

Wrong again.

The Physical Universe was designed to be self-sustaining.

...to run without a need for maintenance.

All evidence points to this, in thousands of integrated facts usually described as Quantum Physics, and only agenda driven theologic fantasy suggests otherwise.

It is theologic fantasy BECAUSE it contradicts all known facts that are real, with "facts" that are merely wishful religious fantasy, with no proof whatsoever.

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11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

It does not mean that he did not foresee the possibility.

That statement contradicts what the Scripture actually says, with agenda driven wishful thinking.

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44 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Wrong again.

The Physical Universe was designed to be self-sustaining.

Jehovah is working until now......... But he was resting from his creation.... so what was he working on?

All physical matter is energy...... whose energy?  ... or where did it come from?  If you do not understand this then you do not understand basic science. While much of it is self-sustaining it depends upon Jehovah's energy to exist - to be there. 

Immortality means that they receive their own source of life.  Nothing else is immortal - all depends upon jehovah to live.  The earth is a living entity with so many forms of life which are sustained by jehovah!

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43 minutes ago, Arauna said:

 James 219  You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

    Hello guest!

They believe - implies they know he is the creator - the only true god.

This is the new philosophy pushed by scholars - that all religions evolved.  The worship of the demons of half-gods  is based on the stories and subsequent worship of the Nephilim. They built the Tower of babel to get closer to heaven... and these demons were associated with the stars etc. So the was an origin for these beliefs and then it grew.  Evolution implies it came from nothing. 

The book isn't pushing the "religions evolved" idea. It's pushing the idea that false religion has from the beginning fostered the idea of evolution because it's originator also believed the same (or at least wanted these to believe it).

The demons, BTW aren't the same thing as the sons of god, at least not according to 2nd temple thought. It was thought that the demons were disembodied dead nephilim. I suppose not being fully human might have made it different for them as opposed to normal humans. Maybe they had phantom-body pain (like a vet who has phantom limb pain) and that was why they kept trying to get inside people or anything physical like pigs.

 

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1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

Wrong again.

The Physical Universe was designed to be self-sustaining.

...to run without a need for maintenance.

All evidence points to this, in thousands of integrated facts usually described as Quantum Physics, and only agenda driven theologic fantasy suggests otherwise.

It is theologic fantasy BECAUSE it contradicts all known facts that are real, with "facts" that are merely wishful religious fantasy, with no proof whatsoever.

I'm not sure that's true. There's a thomist who's essentially arguing exactly this - that God continuously sustains everything. The argument is that like you can't have an infinite regress in the physical realm w/universes (no matter how many) and you can't have an infinite regress at any given point in the here and now, so God's spirit is the sustaining point for all reality. You can think of it the same way you think about the universe - no infinite regress longitudinally , but in the here and now flipped it's also true vertically.

 

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W/regard to Jehovah's foreknowledge I've always thought of it this way:

There's only so much stuff in the universe and only so many ways these can be configured over time factoring in the operation of free will. Before Jehovah created even Jesus as the Word he examined all the possible scenarios and that no matter which path was taken it would all end up being "very good" at the end.

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56 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

You are wrong Arauna .... the Scripture clearly states that it never came into Jehovah's mind that they would do such a thing as sacrifice their own children, burning them to death.

Be a sport ... look it up.

Jehovah was surprised!

JHVH was surprised in several situations. In Eden, after Adam and Eve disappointed Him so much. After, Genesis said: And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. A person who knows what to expect from others would not be in such a difficult emotional state, so that like God, he begins to destroy everything he has created, nature, animals and people.

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

It does not mean that he did not foresee the possibility.

WTJWorg try to explain all God's actions with "love". If he destroy wicked people that is because of love. If he not want to destroy wicked people that is because of love, again. If he allow injustice and suffer, that is because of love. If he destroy devil that is because because of love and because of "universal issue". Well, it seems how "universal issue" is also responsible for God's passivity in time before Eden and in Eden. Because, devil rebellion not started in Eden, for sure. 

According to the WTJWorg interpretation, nowhere in the universe is there life except on Earth and around a God surrounded by angels. Thus, life is concentrated, according to GB, in only two "locations". This very knowledge limits the very thesis of the "universal issue," and gives the possibility that God did not have such a great need to delay the punishment of transgressors of his law. After all, he punished Adam and Eve with death. What prevented him from treating the rebellious angels in the same way? A different law? A different attitude towards angels compared to people?

Are angels just as intellectually limited as humans, so that God should have given them time to prove that the devil was wrong? They see God every day, so they don’t need faith like people do, to believe in an invisible God and what happened in history. People is expected to believe in events that happened before their lives or even in their life time.

 How to understand the absurd fact that God "implanted" in animals the "fear of man" (generally speaking), but no mosquito is afraid of any man, but persistently wants to drink his blood?

Likewise, it is difficult to understand that there is a need for imperfect humans and perfect angels to contribute to the "universal issue", the answer to which has long been known to God. For, every human being does not have the ability to experientially observe the past to which he has not witnessed. And therefore he does not know who said and did what and why. So, he cannot give an answer for another, but only for himself. We cannot answer the question of whether God has the right to rule or not. We only give our "verbal" consent to the authority of one or the other. And that, too, is only of symbolic significance, because our consent to the opposite side will not cause God to cease to rule. Well, it is not democracy and the election of a new president for the next term. If all people agreed to be on the devil’s side, do you really think God would give up his position?

And the question/issue of "love"? It is something that has nothing to do with the "universal issue".

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