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Christ Divinity Explained in John 1:1c


BroRando
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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The beginning is associated with whom? God. The creation is associated with whom? God.

Well...there's more to the story:

Prov 8:22-31;  Col 1:15-17;  John 1:3,10; Acts 3:15; 1 Cor 8:6; Heb 1:2,3 -  

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Agree.  If Jesus was in all sense, the Almighty God, he wouldn't have said... "Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner."  John 5:19 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me."  John 5:30  

No. It's too much of a stretch to say that John 1:1c being used in a feminine sense. It's BOTH the word theos (theon) in John 1:1a AND the word theos (theos) in John 1:1 c that can be used in both a feminine and a masculine sense. Also the word "logos" (word) happens to be "masculine" in Greek (and Hebrew, too.) [Although "wisdom" in Hebrew and in Greek is a feminine noun.] It may very well be that John 1:1c intends to imply that Jesus is divine in a qualitative sense. But NOT because of an

You offered 3 scriptures so far, and you could easily find more. For every one of them, there are at least twice as many that refer to Jehovah God the Almighty Father, with the same supposedly "feminine" nouns. You are playing with the kind of Talmudic "wordplay" that Jewish rabbis got caught up in for many centuries. Whether a word ends up being masculine, feminine or neutral in a language is not part of any divine plan or purpose. In general, Hebrew and Greek and German and many other language

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17 hours ago, Witness said:

SM, I don't normally agree with you, but this is beautiful.

Who made the following statement?  Jesus Christ or Almighty God?  Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)

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8 hours ago, BroRando said:

Who made the following statement?  Jesus Christ or Almighty God?  Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)

Thank you.  That’s a good scripture because Jesus was setting the example for all of us to show humility, not to consider ourselves more important than our neighbor. He was setting the standard for his disciples to follow.  (Phil 2:7,8; 2 Cor 8:9) 

But God said, “this is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”; basically saying, Jesus was “good” in the eyes of God.  Matt 3:17

Jesus once told his disciples - “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who have authority over them are called benefactors (“very important people”)  26 But you are not to be like this! But the one who is greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the one who leads like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am in your midst as the one who serves. Luke 22:25-27

I think you will agree that the anointed are spiritual “Jews” (Rom 2:29); those not anointed are “Gentiles”.  The Gentile elders who rule over JWs could be considered “kings” because they “represent the royal priesthood” – a priesthood of kings.  1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 5:9,10

The benefactors – very important people -  have authority over the kings. The GB would fill that role, since they direct the elders and the organization as a whole.  (Rev 13:11,12)

The scenario that Jesus described is the organization, its rulership and how it runs.  Men have titled themselves as trustworthy according to God, and as “faithful and discreet slaves”.  They have gone so far to assume elders have Holy Spirit, only by following scriptures that actually apply to the anointed.   All other anointed servants/slaves of Christ must obey them – even you, unless you are an elder.  The very important people have the authority to tell the elder body, to rule over the anointed and JWs in general.  Would you say that by adopting a title of “faithful and discreet”, and applying it to themselves shows that these men are “good”, or “bad”?  There are JWs here who believe they are good.  But who is to determine if they are?  Themselves - the GB -  which appears to be the case?  (Matt 25:21; Rom 14:4)

From what I see, your governing leaders have decided that they are good without hearing so, from Jesus Christ and the Father.  However, according to Jesus, this arrangement is not acceptable to him or to the Father.  “But you are not to be like this!” Luke 22:26

Will JWs apply these words of Jesus, or will they submit to men who confidently believe that they will be whisked off to rule with Christ, when your Armageddon erupts?

 Will you choose the words of Jesus over the words of men?  Will you call them “good teachers”?

For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”  Luke 14:21

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41 minutes ago, Witness said:

From what I see, your governing leaders have decided that they are good without hearing so, from Jesus Christ and the Father.  However, according to Jesus, this arrangement is not acceptable to him or to the Father.  “But you are not to be like this!” Luke 22:26

7 “Stop judging

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 that you may not be judged;
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  for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged,
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 and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you.

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20 minutes ago, BroRando said:

7 “Stop judging

    Hello guest!
 that you may not be judged;
    Hello guest!
  for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged,
    Hello guest!
 and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you.

The judge, is the word of Jesus Christ, which I provided for you.  

"The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."   John 12:48

 

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On 8/2/2021 at 12:05 PM, JW Insider said:

No. It's too much of a stretch to say that John 1:1c being used in a feminine sense. It's BOTH the word theos (theon) in John 1:1a AND the word theos (theos) in John 1:1 c that can be used in both a feminine and a masculine sense. Also the word "logos" (word) happens to be "masculine" in Greek (and Hebrew, too.) [Although "wisdom" in Hebrew and in Greek is a feminine noun.]

It may very well be that John 1:1c intends to imply that Jesus is divine in a qualitative sense. But NOT because of any possible use of THEOS as either masculine or feminine. The Greek word THEOS can be used to refer to a female god (feminine) or a male god (masculine) or effectively, even a "neutral" god.

(Philippians 3:19) Their end is destruction, and their god is their belly . . .

[Although "belly" happens to be a feminine noun in Greek, and it can also mean womb.]

 

Jesus even admitted of coming from the gods whom the word of God came! 

Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?  If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (

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20 hours ago, BroRando said:

7 “Stop judging

    Hello guest!
 that you may not be judged;
    Hello guest!
  for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged,
    Hello guest!
 and with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you.

It would seem that everyone judges. A person has to judge each religion against God's written word, otherwise how would a person chose to be part of one religion. Certainly the Watchtower / JW Org has many times passed judgement against the Catholic church. And constantly on this forum people judge Trinitarians and others. 

However  it seems that only when the Watchtower / JW Org is being judged, someone will bring out this type of scripture. 

In fact this scripture when viewed in a positive light can be useful. 

for with the judgment you are judging, you will be judged, So, if we judge by the standards of God through Christ, then we will be judged by the standards of God through Christ.  I'm happy with that. 

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On 8/2/2021 at 9:31 PM, Witness said:

SM, I don't normally agree with you, but this is beautiful.

Same. To me Trinitarianism is problematic, the only reason why I myself and the Christians of CSE are as they are, hence the Anti-Trinitarian vs Trinitarian fight continues for years upon years, now and onward.

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22 hours ago, BroRando said:

Who made the following statement?  Jesus Christ or Almighty God?  Jesus said to him: “Why do you call ME good? Nobody is good except one, God.” (Mark 10:18)

Yes, Jesus made it clear that he is God's Son, and to God, he acknowledged Jesus is his beloved Son. All this is true, but the latter believes Jesus and God are one in the same, not only due to the teachings of the Trinity itself, but the errors and forgeries in the Bible that pushes a reader to not recognize the distinction between the two.

That being said, the verse you cited, Mark 10:18, is used by Trinitarians to justify their view of equating the Son to the Most High which is against what us Non-Trinitarians believe, as is our Subordinationist counterparts of old. Trinitarians see in this verse that Jesus himself is still God; being good. They resort to ignoring as well as nullify Jesus' words. If each of us tell them what Jesus is really saying here, not only they'll rush John 1:1, but they will make the claim that we are saying Jesus is not good. In their minds, Trinitarians are suggesting that the issue is about moral goodness. Trinitarians act as though that Jesus is coyly suggesting that he himself is that "good God", however, the passage is not about whether we say Jesus is good or not, but rather, it is about what Jesus himself has said.

And regarding what he said, Jesus recognizes that God holds the highest of standard of what it means to be good, being the fact, God can make the determination of what is good and bad. And Jesus being humble leaves the determination of setting the standard to his Father and God and we can see this in his Word, of which Jesus proclaims.

They fail to see what was mentioned here, that no one would say such a thing to someone else unless they wanted to correct them and point out that their words were misdirected.

That being said, this is why research and taking in context of core teachings is vital. Because to the unexpected, The Trinitarian Troop can easily sway people into the opposing Teaching of what is true.

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23 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Yes, Jesus made it clear that he is God's Son, and to God, he acknowledged Jesus is his beloved Son. All this is true, but the latter believes Jesus and God are one in the same, not only due to the teachings of the Trinity itself, but the errors and forgeries in the Bible that pushes a reader to not recognize the distinction between the two.

That being said, the verse you cited, Mark 10:18, is used by Trinitarians to justify their view of equating the Son to the Most High which is against what us Non-Trinitarians believe, as is our Subordinationist counterparts of old. Trinitarians see in this verse that Jesus himself is still God; being good. They resort to ignoring as well as nullify Jesus' words. If each of us tell them what Jesus is really saying here, not only they'll rush John 1:1, but they will make the claim that we are saying Jesus is not good. In their minds, Trinitarians are suggesting that the issue is about moral goodness. Trinitarians act as though that Jesus is coyly suggesting that he himself is that "good God", however, the passage is not about whether we say Jesus is good or not, but rather, it is about what Jesus himself has said.

And regarding what he said, Jesus recognizes that God holds the highest of standard of what it means to be good, being the fact, God can make the determination of what is good and bad. And Jesus being humble leaves the determination of setting the standard to his Father and God and we can see this in his Word, of which Jesus proclaims.

They fail to see what was mentioned here, that no one would say such a thing to someone else unless they wanted to correct them and point out that their words were misdirected.

That being said, this is why research and taking in context of core teachings is vital. Because to the unexpected, The Trinitarian Troop can easily sway people into the opposing Teaching of what is true.

This bring us back to John 1:1 and its rendering. To be consistent with other Feminine Nouns  the second theos is speaking about the Word's qualitative sense. 

An Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible commentary notes: "This second theos could also be translated 'divine' as the construction indicates "a qualitative sense for theos". The Word is not God in the sense that he is the same person as the theos mentioned in 1:1a; he is not God the Father."

Really, truth be known. John 1:1 is giving witness to God's Chief Messenger his Foremost Messenger and that he is divine.  Beginning Messenger when translated means Archangel.

It was Michael whom was the one to be given a New Name in

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 and that Name is Jesus to the Glory of God the Father. 😀

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Most people think the Word of God is God because the deny that God has a Chief Messenger. Looking up the meaning of Names can be helpful.

Michael -- Who is godlike or Who is like God?
Immanuel -- With us is God?

The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name. (

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I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the Way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him. (
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Jesus -- Jehovah is Salvation

 

Also looking up other translations can give one a clearer view:

  • 1935: "and the Word was divine" – The Bible: An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago
  •  
  • 1955: "so the Word was divine" – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.
  •  
  • 1975 "and a god (or divine kind) was the Word" – Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany
  •  
  • 1978: "and godlike sort was the Logos" – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin
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On 8/2/2021 at 9:41 AM, Witness said:

John 1:18 - No man hath seen God (theos) at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If you knew anything false prophet. You would know that (John 1:18) reads "No man has Seen (theon) at Any time" (

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) <~~~~ Read and weep.  (Headslap in the back of the head)

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