The 144k and the GB...gnostics?

[xero]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

That is a very good scripture to apply to your leaders who continuously rely on fabrications of their own mind, to lead God's people.  (Jer 14:14)

 

 

Perhaps you are interpreting my resistance to approach a body of elders for spiritual support that you believe I must need, as being stiff-necked?  I don’t think you understand God’s use of “stiff-necked” in the scriptures.  It concerns God’s people not following His commands, and Christ’s teachings. (Exod 32:8-10; Acts 7:51) If needed, I receive my counsel and refinement from the Father and the Son. (1 John 1:7,9,10; 2:1; 3:2,3; 5:3; Eph 4:20-24)   The GB have created their own interpretation of God’s word that diverts from scripture. You even mentioned that the magazines are simply interpretations on the word of God, which indicates no solid ground for truth to be established. (Matt 7:26,27)  Their goal is to refine JWs according to an earthly organizational method under the influence of their word, that you seem to prefer.  No.  They are not my mediator, an organization made up of elders is not my mediator, who have usurped the anointed priesthood in Christ, (2 Thess 2:3,4) and who gives advice by the guidelines of a confidential scripted book.   Are your methods the same earthly methods of your leaders?  ( Phil 3:17-21; James 3:15)

“So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a feast day or a new moon or sabbaths, ¹⁷ which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. ¹⁸ Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, ("messengers"....was it you who mentioned that JWs tend to "worship" the GB? Someone did)   intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, ¹⁹ and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

²⁰ Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— ²¹ “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” ²² which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? ²³ These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”  Col 2:16-23

 

 

 

 

Your long-winded replies show you have a pride problem. If the GB needs disciplining, Jehovah will be the one to give it.

Jude 9

[Srecko Sostar]

5 hours ago, xero said:

And responded to like a person who doesn't take counsel.

Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,..... Ps 1:1

counsel - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/counsel

Synonyms: Noun

• advocate, 
• attorney, 
• attorney-at-law, 
• counselor 
• (or counsellor), 
• counselor-at-law, 
• lawyer, 
• legal eagle

Synonyms: Verb

• advise, 
• confab, 
• confabulate, 
• confer, 
• consult, 
• parley, 
• treat

WTJWorg literature is full of counsels, instructions, directives, dogmas and teachings. Plenty of them is questionable. Thus, the problem may be in the person giving the advice and in the content of the advice. Often times, giving advice in the JW assembly, is at the level and in the form of a request and obligation to accept the advice. In that case, if the advice of the JW elders is not accepted, it could mean that such a person is "marked" as disobedient, stubborn and the like.

But let us ask ourselves this; What could be the advice, from WTJWorg lawyers, also elders, on whether to tell the truth or still be allowed to lie and deceive? The Bible says, don't lie. WTJWorg publications say that it is allowed to lie in order to protect the WTJWorg organization. Enough, right, about the types of advice from a JW organization?

[Kick_Faceinator]

34 minutes ago, xero said:

If the GB needs disciplining, Jehovah will be the one to give it.

If I may,

God always sends prophets to warn Israel of their impending judgment, but they never paid attention:

“God sent prophets to straighten them out, warning of judgment. But nobody paid attention.” 2 chronicles 24:19

God uses the same tactic today as he has sent prophets again and again to warn the governing body to turn from their wicked ways, but they do not listen:

“Time after time I sent you prophets, who told you, “Turn from your wicked ways, and start doing things right. Stop worshiping other gods so that you might live in peace here in the land I have given to you and your ancestors.” But you would not listen to me or obey me.” Jeremiah 35:15

Why don’t they listen? Because, they feel exactly as you’ve said, “if Jehovah wants us to change then He will change us”, but they completely fail to recognize exactly how God works. God sends prophets, they’ve rejected the prophets. Therefor, Jesus has given the governing body time to repent, but they are unwilling (Rev 2:21).

This is their future if they do not change:

“Therefore, I will bring upon you all the disasters I have announced. Prepare to meet your God in judgment, you people of Israel!” Amos 4:12

[Kick_Faceinator]

12 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The Bible says, don't lie. WTJWorg publications say that it is allowed to lie in order to protect the WTJWorg organization. 

I always found it amusing how watchtower leadership, claiming they are anointed, feel it’s ok to lie like a rug and still feel worthy to be accepted into the 144,000, even though Revelation 14:5 clearly says:

“No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.”

[Anna]

On 9/3/2021 at 11:05 AM, xero said:

BTW - My favorite character 

 

Love the Derry Girls, lol

[Anna]

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The Bible says, don't lie. WTJWorg publications say that it is allowed to lie in order to protect the WTJWorg organization. 

Withholding information from people who are not entiteled to it is not lying. For example, would you tell someone who wants to harm your family, where your family is hiding? I am sure you would not. You may even purposefully send them in the opposite direction. 

[Srecko Sostar]

32 minutes ago, Anna said:

Withholding information from people who are not entiteled to it is not lying. For example, would you tell someone who wants to harm your family, where your family is hiding? I am sure you would not. You may even purposefully send them in the opposite direction. 

This is for sure one way how to deal with wicked persons. People's (and animals) life and health must be protected. 

Are secular courts have no right to be entitled? Well, if so, then you ask or advice us to be independent in/about in determining, at one's own discretion, when one is allowed to lie and deceive institutions that are "appointed by God" to maintain order in human society. This is done by JW lawyers in the courts of "Western democracy".
If a JW member has the right to do so to “worldly persons,” what guarantee do you give that he/she will not do the same to his own JW members of the assembly or to elders? Because that’s a practice that’s common in WTJWorg. People keep things quiet or even lie about the facts. And, JW people are still people like everyone else, right?

So, i would say, the example you gave is justified. But if so, then this is true for all people and in all situations for which an individual deems it justified to lie. If there are exceptions in which we may lie or misrepresent facts, then you (JW people) are no different from “secular people” who have the same kind of argumentation about their actions.

Lying for "the truth" is allowed, and lying for a "lie" is not allowed.    So, Pilate was not mad after all when he asked Jesus, What is the Truth? 

What will be "the truth" when JW lawyer open his mouth? 

[Pudgy]

A rough parallel is dogs .... The Disney Character Pluto is Mickey Mouse's dog, and he walks on four legs and has a tail as thin as a clothes line, a collar, and makes normal dog sounds.

Another Disney Character is a dog, wears clothes, and a vest, and walks around on two legs, and can talk just as good as Mickey Mouse.

....and that's just Goofy!

So, which one is lying?

I suspect rules are different if you live in a two-dimensional world, of paper.

..... tell me about it !

[Witness]

21 hours ago, xero said:

If the GB needs disciplining, Jehovah will be the one to give it.

Jude 9

Michael said, "The Lord rebuke you".  This is accomplished through God's Word...

20 hours ago, Kick_Faceinator said:

God always sends prophets to warn Israel of their impending judgment, but they never paid attention:

“God sent prophets to straighten them out, warning of judgment. But nobody paid attention.” 2 chronicles 24:19

 

21 hours ago, xero said:

Your long-winded replies show you have a pride problem.

Of course.  I’m really not surprised at your words. I suppose many thought the same of Jesus and the apostles.  You are living under the illusion that God will only correct the GB, but not those who follow their direction? (Rev 18:4-8) JWs feel secure in their own “pride” as they continue to follow “Jehovah’s organization”, no matter the pitfalls created by their leaders along the way.  They pridefully proclaim that they will obtain salvation by their loyalty to..."Jehovah's organization".  They believe they are “chosen” by God to be part of this magnificent plan of man.  They don’t like their boat rocked; they don’t like their teachings scrutinized. How dare anyone who is now considered spiritually “dead”, speak against “Jehovah’s organization”.  How dare anyone question the idol and its representatives.  (Rom 1:25; Rev 11:11-3,7; 13:1,2,5-7,11,12,15)

You, and all JWs, are living under a false sense of “peace and security”.  1 Thess 5:3

Go now, write it on a tablet in their presence

and inscribe it on a scroll;

it will be for the days to come,

a witness forever and ever.

9These are rebellious people, deceitful children,

children unwilling to obey the LORD’s instruction.

10They say to the seers,

“Stop seeing visions!”

and to the prophets,

“Do not prophesy to us the truth!

Speak to us pleasant words;

prophesy illusions.

11Get out of the way; turn off the road.

Rid us of the Holy One of Israel!”

12Therefore this is what the Holy One of Israel says:

“Because you have rejected this message,

trusting in oppression and relying on deceit,

13this iniquity of yours is like a breach about to fail,

a bulge in a high wall,

whose collapse will come suddenly—

in an instant!

14It will break in pieces like a potter’s jar,

shattered so that no fragment can be found.

Not a shard will be found in the dust

large enough to scoop the coals from a hearth

or to skim the water from a cistern.”

15For the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel, has said:

“By repentance and rest

you would be saved;

your strength would lie in quiet confidence—

but you were not willing.”  Isa 30

 

Sleeping

 

[Space Merchant]

They're far from Gnosticism. Gnosticism in a way parallels that of New Ageism.

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

They're far from Gnosticism. Gnosticism in a way parallels that of New Ageism.

They’re not gnostic. They have no special secret source of knowledge. However, the Bible itself speaks to them in a way in does not speak to most. That’s not gnostic, but it leans a little that way.

[Space Merchant]

11 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

They’re not gnostic. They have no special secret source of knowledge. However, the Bible itself speaks to them in a way in does not speak to most. That’s not gnostic, but it leans a little that way.

Exactly however, when religious opponents see something they can make a comparison to, they're quick to equate things, this seems to be the case concerning this Mediterranean rooted faith in question. This is usually professed by a majority of Trinitarians, which is not surprising because OP is one himself.

That being said, among all Anti-Trinitarian faiths, Gnostics have hatred for JWs, especially in the EU. This is why in London a lot of them often seek debate with JWs a while back, other times they use whatever information to attack them, and seeing that most media do not like Christianity or the Bible if it is not in their view, Gnostics who go on this warpath will weaponize whatever they can find.

Among some, people need to be careful with Gnostics, often times they are tricky to deal with.