Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Srecko Sostar]

7 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

Does that indicate "Christ invisible Presence" was only felt in 1874? No! Throughout recorded history, people have felt Christ presence in their lives, even today.

Bravo. Interesting and inspirational view. WTJWorg needs Bible scholars like you. These today's GB helpers, as well as those from the past, can be ashamed that this has not occurred to them before. Such an explanation solves the existing dilemmas about 1914 and the “invisible presence”. 

Because, after all, every invisible presence still has a visible manifestation. For example, electricity is in the wires and is invisibly present in our house. But it will only become visible when one of the people turns on the light switch or some other device.

What did they turn on / off in WTJWorg, in the past, so that the visible presence became invisible?

[Dmitar]

22 hours ago, BroRando said:

It would make sense some of the overlapping generation (remnant) would witness the End of the Last Days before being SUMMONED to heaven by the glorified Jesus Christ. 

The easiest way to explain Jesus words in Matthew is, one generation literally heard Jesus speak of Jerusalem destruction, while another generation actually saw that destruction. In the case of JW’s, the generation of 1914 has literally seen the commencement of the last portion of the final days of God's judgment, while the message of Christ continues until the last generation will see Jehovah’s day.

How can we be sure of this? We just need to remember the past. Jehovah spoke to Noah and instructed him to prepare for an impending destruction. While Noah was faithfully executing those commands, he was also warning people of this impending destruction. If they didn’t want to get caught up and consumed by it, they needed to repent.

When Jehovah’s final day of judgment came, was Noah and his family the “only ones” to literally see it? No! Everyone living on earth saw that judgment. Were they the only ones to experience that judgment? No! The spiritual world experienced that destruction. That means, Jesus, Satan and all the angels, good or bad, saw that judgment.

How many generations passed before all of human creation saw that destruction. Did any humans pass away? Would those who died before that judgment raised again after Noah settled in the land?

 

Another view can be seen with Jesus. Was Jesus actually present when judgment came to Jerusalem? How about some apostles. When Jesus walked the earth. Were all of Jesus generation present in 70 CE? Did Jesus raise “all” the dead in 33 CE? Peter raised someone from the died, Acts 9:36-42, so did Paul in Act's 20:7-12. So, how much authority did God grant at that time and was Jesus the sole recipient. By 1914, Christ heavenly enthronement gave him FULL authority over the living and dead. How can, we be sure? Has anyone after 100 CE been raised by Jehovah’s authority? Has Paradise been restored after 100 CE? No! That future generation that is spoken in Matthew has not seen the son of man’s full power and authority granted to him by his sacrifice. That is the debate Brothers Russell and Rutherford were bringing forward in their books.

 

1920-Millions now living will never die! Page 12

We therefore propose to prove in this argument that the social order of things, the second world, legally ended in 1914, and since that time has been and is passing away; that the new order of things is coming in to take its place; that within a definite period of time the old order will be completely eradicated and the new order in full sway; and that these things shall take place within the time of the present generation and that therefore there are millions of people now living on earth who will see them take place, to whom everlasting life will be offered and who, if they accept it upon the terms offered and obey those terms, will never die.

 ECCLESIASTES

1:4. Cod designed the earth to be the permanent home of man. and although now the generations succeed one another in death yet death shall cease, as other Scriptures show. P-115

 

WHAT PASTOR RUSSELL SAID

 SECOND COMING--Present or Future?

Q636:1:: QUESTION (1911)--2--In the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew, Christ tells his disciples of many signs of his second coming, and in the thirty-fourth verse, says, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." How is this statement reconciled with the belief that his second coming has not yet occurred?

 

ANSWER--A full answer of this will be found in the fourth volume of Scripture Studies. If my memory serves me right, there are about eighty pages on that one subject, and anyone interested would do well to read it very carefully. Briefly answering the question as it is here, we would say that Jesus in the narative carries the mind of his hearers down from the day in which they were to the time when these things will happen, and when these will happen, and these, and so on, pointing clear down to the end of the age, and then indicating that the generation that would see these signs down in the end of the age would not have fully passed away before the consumation of this age. Not the generation he was talking to, surely, but the generation respecting which he was talking, the generation that would see these signs when they would be fulfilled--that generation would not pass away, it would not be a long enough time to be more than a generation from the time certain things would be seen until the full consumation of the age.

 This holds true today inasmuch as it did back then.

 Have people seen a vaster deterioration of humanity after 1914? YES! This is literal and not a made-up assertion by historical accounts.

This would also strengthen a weak point by someone asserting that somehow Jesus was made King in either 30 CE or 33 CE. If the apostles had Jehovah’s authority to bring the dead back to life and Jesus was king, it would have undermined his Authority as king in heaven and on earth.

The concept of overlapping generations is not found as a searchable concept with JW’s, but can be found in the mind of an unreasonable person. JW’s should be confident their understanding of Matthew 24:32-24, Mark 13:28-31, Luke 21:29-33 are correct. 

[BroRando]

1 hour ago, NoisySrecko said:

The easiest way to explain Jesus words in Matthew is, one generation literally heard Jesus speak of Jerusalem destruction, while another generation actually saw that destruction. In the case of JW’s, the generation of 1914 has literally seen the commencement of the last portion of the final days of God's judgment, while the message of Christ continues until the last generation will see Jehovah’s day.

How can we be sure of this? We just need to remember the past. Jehovah spoke to Noah and instructed him to prepare for an impending destruction. While Noah was faithfully executing those commands, he was also warning people of this impending destruction. If they didn’t want to get caught up and consumed by it, they needed to repent.

When Jehovah’s final day of judgment came, was Noah and his family the “only ones” to literally see it? No! Everyone living on earth saw that judgment. Were they the only ones to experience that judgment? No! The spiritual world experienced that destruction. That means, Jesus, Satan and all the angels, good or bad, saw that judgment.

How many generations passed before all of human creation saw that destruction. Did any humans pass away? Would those who died before that judgment raised again after Noah settled in the land?

 

Another view can be seen with Jesus. Was Jesus actually present when judgment came to Jerusalem? How about some apostles. When Jesus walked the earth. Were all of Jesus generation present in 70 CE? Did Jesus raise “all” the dead in 33 CE? Peter raised someone from the died, Acts 9:36-42, so did Paul in Act's 20:7-12. So, how much authority did God grant at that time and was Jesus the sole recipient. By 1914, Christ heavenly enthronement gave him FULL authority over the living and dead. How can, we be sure? Has anyone after 100 CE been raised by Jehovah’s authority? Has Paradise been restored after 100 CE? No! That future generation that is spoken in Matthew has not seen the son of man’s full power and authority granted to him by his sacrifice. That is the debate Brothers Russell and Rutherford were bringing forward in their books.

 

1920-Millions now living will never die! Page 12

We therefore propose to prove in this argument that the social order of things, the second world, legally ended in 1914, and since that time has been and is passing away; that the new order of things is coming in to take its place; that within a definite period of time the old order will be completely eradicated and the new order in full sway; and that these things shall take place within the time of the present generation and that therefore there are millions of people now living on earth who will see them take place, to whom everlasting life will be offered and who, if they accept it upon the terms offered and obey those terms, will never die.

 ECCLESIASTES

1:4. Cod designed the earth to be the permanent home of man. and although now the generations succeed one another in death yet death shall cease, as other Scriptures show. P-115

 

WHAT PASTOR RUSSELL SAID

 SECOND COMING--Present or Future?

Q636:1:: QUESTION (1911)--2--In the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew, Christ tells his disciples of many signs of his second coming, and in the thirty-fourth verse, says, "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." How is this statement reconciled with the belief that his second coming has not yet occurred?

 

ANSWER--A full answer of this will be found in the fourth volume of Scripture Studies. If my memory serves me right, there are about eighty pages on that one subject, and anyone interested would do well to read it very carefully. Briefly answering the question as it is here, we would say that Jesus in the narative carries the mind of his hearers down from the day in which they were to the time when these things will happen, and when these will happen, and these, and so on, pointing clear down to the end of the age, and then indicating that the generation that would see these signs down in the end of the age would not have fully passed away before the consumation of this age. Not the generation he was talking to, surely, but the generation respecting which he was talking, the generation that would see these signs when they would be fulfilled--that generation would not pass away, it would not be a long enough time to be more than a generation from the time certain things would be seen until the full consumation of the age.

 This holds true today inasmuch as it did back then.

 Have people seen a vaster deterioration of humanity after 1914? YES! This is literal and not a made-up assertion by historical accounts.

This would also strengthen a weak point by someone asserting that somehow Jesus was made King in either 30 CE or 33 CE. If the apostles had Jehovah’s authority to bring the dead back to life and Jesus was king, it would have undermined his Authority as king in heaven and on earth.

The concept of overlapping generations is not found as a searchable concept with JW’s, but can be found in the mind of an unreasonable person. JW’s should be confident their understanding of Matthew 24:32-24, Mark 13:28-31, Luke 21:29-33 are correct. 

Yes, agreed.  A generation can be applied to a people who lived during a specific period or span of time.  For instance 1914 through 2034.  This generation will not pass away as a whole.  

Notice the words of Jesus are very different from what opposers of Christ have stated, "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." (Matthew 24:34)

The Last Days are a Conclusion of a System of things, 😀

 

 

The period of time leading up to the end of the system of things, or state of affairs, dominated by Satan. It runs concurrently with Christ’s presence. Under the direction of Jesus, angels will “separate the wicked from among the righteous” and destroy them. (Mt 13:40-42, 49) Jesus’ disciples were interested in the timing of that “conclusion.” (Mt 24:3) Before his return to heaven, he promised his followers that he would be with them until that time.—Mt 28:20.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, BroRando said:

Yes, agreed.  A generation can be applied to a people who lived during a specific period or span of time.  For instance 1914 through 2034.  This generation will not pass away as a whole.  

Notice the words of Jesus are very different from what opposers of Christ have stated, "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen." (Matthew 24:34)

I am glad to see another new Bible scholar with a whole new approach to the subject, different from WTJWorg.
So, if I understand correctly what you wrote, you are actually saying that a certain generation/generations is/are not a key determinant (generation = as a set of people no matter how someone defines the term generation and life span of such group) and that it is completely irrelevant to determine the life expectancy of a generation or series of generations following one for another. Like the one about the life expectancy of a man of an average of 70-80 years which was the WTJWorg approach to the topic until the emergence of a new doctrine of “overlapping generations”.

You actually want to make it known that in order to (as final result) recognize a generation, it is important to first determine the beginning and the end of all events that are in connection with "the last days" (signs, beginning of period, events, etc), and only then to come to a conclusion from such a time span of events, which group of people or generation/generations is/are actually involved and can be named as "generation" from Jesus prophecy . Brilliant.

[Arauna]

19 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But if your grand child is going to watch ex-JW material it is easily possible that your influence (regarding the WTJWorg doctrine) will not be of any use.  On the other hand, every effort you would make to make a child an honest and responsible person is commendable.

I used my example to illustrate how 4 generations could be living at the same time and have influence on 4 generations.  Your reply is an excellent example of changing the subject and using it for an excercise in mindless redicule -  hate-OCD at play.....

[Dmitar]

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Like the one about the life expectancy of a man of an average of 70-80 years which was the WTJWorg approach to the topic until the emergence of a new doctrine of “overlapping generations”.

It could also expand to 120 if you look at Noah. 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

It could also expand to 120 if you look at Noah. 

But what was the life expectancy of Jews when Jesus was on earth ?  Not 120 years I think. 

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

But what was the life expectancy of Jews when Jesus was on earth ?  Not 120 years I think. 

The hypothesis starts with Noah, not necessarily how long a person lives. I however use a more progressive calculation by events. By events and natural history, perhaps by 2023/4 we will have a better understanding by global events. Some link their thoughts to 2021/2 which we are now seeing how fast humanity and this earth is deteriorating quicker than before. These are all hypothesis for entertainment purposes, not to be viewed as literal or by any other form. Students of the Bible need to wait and see, just like Christ himself.

[Pudgy]

On 10/12/2021 at 9:51 PM, Anna said:

I think the society is trying to word it as "contemporaries".....two groups of people, one group old, the other group younger and both groups having experienced the signs of the times.....or on this case experienced Br. Franz being alive (as an example). At least I think that's how it is 🤔 In any case, if explaining this requires mental gymnastics, then it's a bit fishy in my opinion....

As that was fictional sage of the ages, Yoda once said, “There is no try, there is only do“.

……. guessing about this, and guessing about that and extrapolating fantasies galore is certainly trying, but it’s better to say “I do not know“ and leave it at that then to be continuously committed to an agenda of being 100% wrong, 100% of the time ……  which is what we have going on now by any rational determination.

People from one end of the Earth to the other end of the Earth, and at least for the last 6000 years or so I’ve had one opinion about how long a generation is. It’s about 100 years and they don’t overlap.

This is reflected in The actuarial tables of  every insurance company in existence, who will insure your life based on the idea that you will be dead in 100 years, with very very few exceptions.  Many will actually pay you the proceeds of your life insurance policy at age 100, because theoretically you are dead  

 That’s the standard definition of a generation and everybody on Earth that’s not of the Governing Body or their adherents knows this to be true, and has known it to be true for the past 6000 years, or so.

You add that to Jesus words to his disciples, and what was in his mind and what was in their mind and you get the same conclusion.

it is very clear that in a horse race, one of the horses is going to win, and although we don’t know which one, the best bet on the strongest or the fastest one.

The rest is up to pure dumb luck.

Were you absolutely refuse to do that you are stuck in a position of entering a cow in a horse race.

1.)  I  know everybody in your little tribe agrees the cow is a racehorse……… but It’s really not.

2.). I know everybody in your little tribe agrees that the  cow is a racehorse……… but It’s really not.

It is an agenda driven fantasy.

 

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

The easiest way to explain Jesus words in Matthew is, one generation literally heard Jesus speak of Jerusalem destruction, while another generation actually saw that destruction.

If that's true, then one generation heard Jesus in 33 CE and another generation saw the destruction 37 years later in 70 CE. So you are speaking of two generations in the space of 37 years. This could mean you are thinking of each average generation as short as 18.5 years each, but probably longer, I'm guessing. (18.5+18.5=37)

You might have a point, since there is evidence for a Jewish practice near that time period that suggested 18 years of age for the husband and as young as 13 for the wife.

Marriage took place at a young age for the ancient Jews. Most rabbis proposed 18 as the most appropriate age for men to be married, but it wasn’t uncommon for them to be younger, especially in times of peace. Young women were married almost as soon as they were physically ready, approximately age 13.  http://blog.adw.org/2017/03/marriage-family-time-jesus/

Without birth control, the first child would probably be born when the husband turned 19 and the wife turned 14, giving birth to the next generation. (Oh look, the birth of something around 19&14. That could be significant. Maybe they would have 6 o' 7 kids, too.)

But if each generation could be under 20 years, this would mean there have now been, not TWO, but FIVE generations between 1914 and 2021. (107/20=5.35+) And counting from 1914 and adding Noah's 120 years would be SIX generations, at that rate.

4 hours ago, NoisySrecko said:

These are all hypothesis for entertainment purposes, not to be viewed as literal or by any other form. Students of the Bible need to wait and see, just like Christ himself.

Exactly!! Excellent point!

[Arauna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

then one generation heard Jesus in 33 CE and another generation saw the destruction 37 years later in 70 CE.

That is 2 groups of people but living at same time and of much different ages....... this overlapping ages in one ling generation.

[Srecko Sostar]

Is all wars (every events) in history just one war, because in fact they always “overlap”? So we can talk about earthquakes, diseases, crimes, famines and the like. If we are going to solve everything with the help of the “overlap” offered to us by WTJWorg or others on this forum, then there is no need to point out any year in which things change dramatically and fulfill biblical prophecies.

In fact, we all live in continuity, a series of diverse events that are completely and uniquely connected to each other. Which means all people from Adam and Eve to this day are just one generation. We are connected by the overlap of our lives and the overlap of events.