Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, Pudgy said:

1.)  I  know everybody in your little tribe agrees the cow is a racehorse……… but It’s really not.

Ridiculous... this is not a reasonable argument it is an insulting statement....  when a person cannot be logical they insult. 

[Arauna]

I was thinking:  young men who arrived in Babylon during the first group of EXILES were about 15 years old... they were educated and lived in Babylon...... many of them (except Daniel) had died out during the 70 years of exile.... 

Many of the EXILED generation were born and died in Babylon and many of them were born (let us say) ten years before the return to Jerusalem with their parents. Due to their different overlapping  ages,   their experiences regarding the exile were different BUT they were still living in the EXilic generation. The new age groups learnt about their homeland and temple from their parents and listened to stories from their grandfathers about Jerusalem and true worship of Jehovah at the temple.  This created a longing to go back in the new age groups. 

The EXILES returned home to Jerusalem - a home they had never seen !  They instituted  pure worship after rebuilding the temple  Were they called EXILES from Babylon? Yes.  Did they view themselves as exiles in Babylon - even if they were born there? Yes. BUT THEY WERE NOT THE ORIGINAL EXILES......... THEY WERE PART OF THE OVERLAPPING GENERATION (THE DIFFERENT AGES) WHO MADE UP THE GENERATION who experienced different parts of the exile AND  WERE CALLED EXILES! 

Someone who reads a lot of history understand this concept very well..... but many people do not read history. This is why we also speak of empires. Empires can last hundreds of years with a certain dynasty ruling..... but this empire usually has many individual rulers. The PERIOD is clumped together because the time is defined by many similar characteristics! And one dynasty ruling.

[Pudgy]

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

Ridiculous... this is not a reasonable argument it is an insulting statement....  when a person cannot be logical they insult. 

So, Of everything I wrote that’s the only thing you could find that you deem to be a illogical?

I would assume then, that you agree with all the other statements that were made in my posting.

……. be a sport, go through it line by line and tell me what points you object to, besides the one you just mentioned.

Could be worse, could be overlapping cows.

[Arauna]

9 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

Could be worse, could be overlapping cows.

Read my answer above - reply to that in a LOGICAL way please - without the ridicule........ that is - if you are capable of answering without ridicule.  Because many people  use ridicule when they are ineffective.  I see a confused emoji there - so I guess that is the only answer I will get. 

[Pudgy]

16 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Read my answer above - reply to that in a LOGICAL way please - without the ridicule........ that is - if you are capable of answering without ridicule.

Some ideas are so obviously fabricated out of desperation that although ridicule may or may not be effective, or insult the persons believing in them,  still need to be ridiculed.

Otherwise, like the old fable goes, the King may ride on horseback  through the cheering town completely naked, because not only does he believe he is wearing the finest magical clothing, but the crowd also believes he is wearing the finest magical clothing, and it takes a child calling out what is obvious to everyone, "THE KING HAS NO CLOTHES!".

I really think you feel insulted by my previous posts, because although they may be rough analogies, they are in fact true, but in your heart of hearts you have a conflict that cannot be allowed to resolve.

"Millions now living will never die." was a deliberate lie, a false flag, puffery, and a taking advantage of naive and scared people for monetary gain.

The way I resolve this, having Faith that somehow, Jehovah's Witnesses really are God's Name People, not based on derived fantasy, but on solid Biblical core doctrine, is not expect much from the leadership of ANY  religious based organization of more than somewhere around 50 to 200 people.

We ALL have our 15 minutes of fame and shame, deluding either ourselves, each other ... or both.

It's the nature of being human.

In an interview on the BBC show Horizon, in 1981 Richard Feynman said this:

"I can live with doubt, and uncertainty and not knowing.  I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong."

 

 

 

[Space Merchant]

On 10/12/2021 at 8:15 PM, NoisySrecko said:

Perhaps Peter's words can also help your argument in Act 3:21. 

²¹ For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration (restitution) of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.

The view in the late 19th century was synonymous with restitution, rather than the modern view of restoration. That was the purpose of Brother Rutherford's book. It would be the adequate assumption for this time period of this debate.

What were other Christian sects preaching about eternal damnation and how the wicked would be condemned forever without the possibility of being granted clemency from the original sin. They referred to those wicked ones, the second death. But, what about repentance and at what time? What was Christ words recorded in Luke 23:43? While none of us can forecast who will be saved, we do know how we can guarantee our own destruction. By not obeying God and not listening to Christ by God's inspired words.

That was the message of that period.

Yes, and it is in regards to why those who claim to have gone to heaven/hell and return to earth are usually red flags, this goes for those affiliated with the various movements, some of which that connect to the interfaith.

[Witness]

On 10/10/2021 at 11:59 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Judgment Day will be a period of a thousand years during which humans will have the opportunity to regain what Adam and Eve lost.

Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.  John 12:31

“Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life."  John 5:24

"This is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."   John 3:19

There is not another "judgment" after death is destroyed which is promised to happen at the end of Armageddon.  (1 Cor 15:25,26)

I think we need to remember that the Wt is an expert at confusing teachings.  Developing their doctrine that a thousand years of judgment to come AFTER Armageddon, is laced with a promise of peace, and  of becoming physically and mentally perfect, is totally misleading.  We have the accounts of faithful ones who lived their lives totally devoted to God and His word.  To think that they must enter into another judgment period after they are resurrected, is a lie. It negates the judgment of Christ now.   The symbolic "thousand years" is finished.  It was a time period where the anointed who lived as humans must prove their faithfulness, loyalty to truth, and their love for God, Jesus, and the assignment that was given to them.  (Luke 16:10; Matt 25:21) 

Wt doctrine is basically saying that not only does Jesus not have the capability to judge our hearts now, but neither does God.  These are the same leaders who have allowed the anointed to be trampled down by the elder body.  (Matt 24:24,25,15,16, 48-51;  2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 13:1,2,5-7,11,12,15)  Whatever is done to the anointed members of Jesus Christ, is done to him.  (Acts 26:14)  So, of course Wt would imply that Jesus' promise of ETERNAL LIFE comes with a fine print clause....another judgment period is to follow,  after he DESTROYS DEATH.  

It is based on the desires of the flesh - who wouldn't latch on to a bogus promise of peace, physical beauty and mental perfection?  Who...would promise such things, but Satan who bestows physical riches, power and authority to those who do his bidding!  (Luke 4:5-7)

This is absolute blasphemy.  

John 6:63 - "The Spirit is the one who gives life. The flesh doesn’t help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

 

Thousand Years

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

14 hours ago, Witness said:

We have the accounts of faithful ones who lived their lives totally devoted to God and His word.  To think that they must enter into another judgment period after they are resurrected, is a lie.

John 5 : 28 & 29 

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.  

So the faithful ones will get a resurrection to LIFE, not judgement. 

15 hours ago, Witness said:

“Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life."  John 5:24

Jesus was sent to the lost House of Israel. Those that believed Jesus were to be of Spiritual Israel. Those of Spiritual Israel do not get a second judgement. It was Spiritual Israel / Christ's bride that Jesus died for. Christ's death does not cover the Earthly Class as yet. 

Revelation 5 : 9&10 

And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, ¹⁰  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kingsr over the earth.”

The Chosen ones. The ones Christ died for.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

The symbolic "thousand years" is finished.  It was a time period where the anointed who lived as humans must prove their faithfulness, loyalty to truth, and their love for God, Jesus, and the assignment that was given to them. 

Some of those Anointed are still living and will not have 'proven' themselves until their death or until they are taken up from this Earth. So then how has that 'thousand years' finished ?  Unless you are saying all the Anointed HAVE NOW proved themselves. 

I disagree with you entirely on all this.... 

[Witness]

3 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Some of those Anointed are still living and will not have 'proven' themselves until their death or until they are taken up from this Earth. So then how has that 'thousand years' finished ?  Unless you are saying all the Anointed HAVE NOW proved themselves. 

We have the faithful and sealed,  144,000” who never worshipped Revelation’s end time Wild Beast from the Sea.  They were blameless “and lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”.  Rev 20:4

We also have the anointed remnant in the last days -  “remaining ones of the woman’s seed”, who are “taken captive by empty philosophy”.  (Col 2:8,1 Tim 4:1; Rev 13:10)  Satan deceives them with a flood of lies. This is how he “makes war” with them.  (Rev 12:3,4,15)

Matt 24:24,25 –  ^“For false messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note: I have told you in advance.”

Through this captivity, the anointed worship the Beast, they give their obedience to men and the beast/organization.  They bear its “mark”; but there are some who “conquer” the Beast/organization by sacrificing their life for Christ. (John 16:2; Rev 11:1-3,7; 13:15; 15:2) They also must repent to receive their “white robe washed in the blood of the lamb”. (Heb 10:22; Rev 7:14)

The symbolic thousand years ended with the emergence of the Wild Beast from the Sea and the Beast with “two horns” like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon” – descriptive of false prophets.  (Rev 13:11,12)

Gog and Magog of Rev 20:7,8 = the two Beasts of Rev 13.  One represents false prophets of “Israel”, (“Gog”), and one represents the “man of lawlessness”/organization (“Magog”) and an army that persecutes the saints.  (Joel 1:4,7-10; Rev 8:10,11; 9:1-6; 13:5-7)  The false prophet of Rev 13:11,12 directs the Beast from the Sea. Who directs the organization?

Rev 20: “When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison (Rev 9:1,2) and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle.”  

The battle of Armageddon.  There is no other battle once this one is finished as Daniel tells us. Dan 7:11-14,21,22,26,27

 Rev 20:8,9 - “Their number is like the sand of the sea. ⁹ They came up across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city.

“New Jerusalem”/Temple of God.  (1 Cor 3:16,17; Gal 4:26)

Once the temple is sealed by the last capstone, (Zech 4:9,10) there is no way that the faithful saints in the Kingdom can be surrounded by Satan, Gog and Magog of Rev 20, while ruling with Jesus Christ.  It is the anointed “kings of the earth” that are the primary target of this war.  Rev 16:13-16 (Rev 1:5)

And this war is one of DECEIT against the saints, as Rev 20:7 tells us.  Deceit means lies, not a war of nations fighting with literal weapons.   How can proven faithful, sealed anointed be deceived once reigning with Jesus Christ in the Kingdom?

Rev 20:9,10 - “Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. ¹⁰ The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

We already know that the anointed saints are surround by a number like the sand of the sea – the massive elder body who have usurped their position as God’s priests, ending their daily sacrifice to God.  (Ezek 44:6-9)

God promises no more death or sorrow in the Kingdom.  The Wt doctrine of the thousand years ending in war, nullifies this promise from God. (Rev 21:4)  He looks at the heart of each one of us during our lifetime, even those before Christ. He already perceives what we are made of, what are capabilities are.  Becoming fleshly, mentally perfect will make no difference.  Obviously, it didn’t for Adam and Eve.   (1 Sam 16:7; Heb 4:13)

 

 

[Arauna]

4 hours ago, Pudgy said:

deas are so obviously fabricated out of desperation

When they are good ides they cannot be refuted and then people go to ridicule... so I welcome you to pick it apart - with logic

[BroRando]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

If that's true, then one generation heard Jesus in 33 CE and another generation saw the destruction 37 years later in 70 CE. So you are speaking of two generations in the space of 37 years. This could mean you are thinking of each average generation as short as 18.5 years each, but probably longer, I'm guessing. (18.5+18.5=37)

You might have a point, since there is evidence for a Jewish practice near that time period that suggested 18 years of age for the husband and as young as 13 for the wife.

Marriage took place at a young age for the ancient Jews. Most rabbis proposed 18 as the most appropriate age for men to be married, but it wasn’t uncommon for them to be younger, especially in times of peace. Young women were married almost as soon as they were physically ready, approximately age 13.  http://blog.adw.org/2017/03/marriage-family-time-jesus/

Without birth control, the first child would probably be born when the husband turned 19 and the wife turned 14, giving birth to the next generation. (Oh look, the birth of something around 19&14. That could be significant. Maybe they would have 6 o' 7 kids, too.)

But if each generation could be under 20 years, this would mean there have now been, not TWO, but FIVE generations between 1914 and 2021. (107/20=5.35+) And counting from 1914 and adding Noah's 120 years would be SIX generations, at that rate.

Exactly!! Excellent point!

Yes... 33 CE to 70 CE...  A new generation came about almost every day if there was a child was born.  But has a whole (this generation) will not pass away until all things happen.  Same with 1914... if the last days are coming to their end soon, then we really are at a New Era.  Distress Pangs began in 1914 but know those pangs can be now be considered Birth Pangs as the New World is being 'brought forth' and begotten into a New Creation.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

15 hours ago, BroRando said:

Distress Pangs began in 1914 but know those pangs can be now be considered Birth Pangs as the New World is being 'brought forth' and begotten into a New Creation.

They never were 'distress pangs'. that was just a false teaching of the Watchtower. 

Funny how now You call it Birth Pangs, the scripture has always called it that. 

Matthew 24:8 

New International Version
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

New Living Translation
But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

English Standard Version
All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

Berean Study Bible
All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Berean Literal Bible
And all these are the beginning of birth pains.

New American Standard Bible
But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.

NASB 1995
“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

NASB 1977
“But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

Christian Standard Bible
All these events are the beginning of labor pains.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
All these events are the beginning of birth pains.