Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[BroRando]

9 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

A public talk titled "The World Has Ended; Millions Now Living May Never Die" was first delivered on February 24, 1918 in Los Angeles, California. Five weeks later, on March 31, 1918 the title was changed to indicate absolute certainty: "The World Has Ended; Millions Now Living Will Never Die." The public talk continued to be delivered under that same title until 1925.

Yes, Brother Rutherford wrote Millions Now Living May Never Die.  The statement is a fact of "truth".  Of course apostates and opposers of Christ will deny this statement.  But one should consider where the statement came from before playing false to the holy spirit in attacking this teacing.

Jesus Christ taught his faithful followers such as Mary, Martha, and his Apostles who were with him that, "Everyone who is living and exercises faith in me Will Never Die At All." (Matthew John 11:25-26) That indicates absolute certainty now doesn't it.  Now that I have quoted your misleading LIE, even you can't twist away from it PATIENTLY.

Jesus Christ made this statement under the inspiration of Holy Spirit.  So... to reject his teachings that have been inspired of holy spirit would be playing false to holy spirit itself.  This type of sin is unforgivable no matter who the one is speaking aginst this teaching.  "Whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come." (Matthew 12:32)

The Bible also gives us a warning about such ones. "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.  For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 10)

The teaching about Never Dying at All is not new. Jesus Christ himself taught this to his followers and even onlookers almost 2,000 years ago!  

Those who lie against holy spirt will continue to do so openly, for Satan has embolden them. (Acts 5:3)

[ApostaBabe Linda James]

The foot note to the the scripture

@John 11:26

will never die at all: When Jesus spoke about not dying, or of living forever, he clearly did not mean that his listeners back then would never experience death. Jesus was making the point that faith in him could lead to everlasting life. That conclusion is supported by what Jesus said earlier, as recorded in John chapter 6, where he connects exercising faith with gaining everlasting life.—Joh 6:39-44, 54.

 

4 hours ago, BroRando said:

Jesus made this statement almost 2,000 years ago.... why don't you go for it and call him a liar too??   You know what Jesus says about Hypocrisy? 

Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will Never Die At All. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26)

All due respect, BroRando

Why would you use this approach with PwfT?

"why don't you go for it and call him a liar too??   You know what Jesus says about Hypocrisy? "

John 11:26 isn't even being taken literally by jw.org. Please! Check out the above footnote. Look it up yourself. "When Jesus spoke about not dying, or of living forever, he clearly did not mean that his listeners back then would never experience death. Jesus was making the point that faith in him could lead to everlasting life."

We all here know that within the culture of the Watchtower, the Org has taught that there would be some that are living during the time of the end, or just before the Great Tribulation, ( other times the Org has use the term Armageddon or The great day of Armageddon which I will now in this discussion thread use G.T. for Great Tribulation & The Big "A" for Armageddon ) who would be able to live through it and walk right on into the new system of things.

This has been big thing within this culture of the Watchtower, even way back in the day when Rutherford was the president. Wasn't it he that established that there would be what is called, "a great crowd," spoken of in Revelations, that would have an Earthly hope rather than a Heavenly hope? If so, when did he established this?

The goal or hope of "the great crowd" was to be able to survive going through these times. I'm sure we can agree that within Watchtower theology, we were taught that those who did not survive the time of the G.T. or The Big "A" had no hope for a Resurrection. This surviving Armageddon And/or the Great Tribulation is a big teaching of hope. 

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

my questions.

I'm interested in this big change of thought from the idea of, millions of individuals that would continue living, to the idea of, 'only Jehovah's Witnesses will continue living'. 

So it would be good to know exactly who Rutherford expected to 'continue living

This teaching of only IBSA's or the JW's surviving through the G.T. and/or The Big "A" is, I thought, THE whole REASON for the preaching work or the ministry work. I can even remember it being spoken of as our spiritual act of worship. So what could possibly be a problem with PwfT saying, "So it would be good to know exactly who Rutherford expected to 'continue living," ?

So Patiently Waiting For Truth asking about this seems like a reasonable question to me. But hay. IDK? Is this, was this doctrinal change even a thing? A thing worth acknowledging and/or even discussing. Was there a chang? An add on to those with the Heavenly hope?

I mean if not, and that's the case, why would someone not just say so rather then comparing the words Rutherford to the words of Jesus and then proceeding to accuse Patiently Waiting For Truth of calling Jesus a liar. ( BTW, during the reign of Rutherford there wasn't even 1 million members yet, so might he have been talking about those who were not yet members, and not of the 144.000 Heavenly hope that might be potential future members that had not yet been recruited members of the IBSA yet "that will never die?" )  

I don't understand the hesitation here to have this conversation. 

 

[Arauna]

I just glanced at what was said above. It seems it is a much created fluffy storm in a tea cup  - about nothing! 

If I were living in 1919 or in 1935,  and finally understood the scriptures which indicated that a people will live through Armageddon: such as Revelation 20: 1 -3,  Revelation 7 (great crowd).... would you not write a book and articles with a advertising heading such as " Millions now living may never die!". 

If you suddenly understood that some people will live through Armageddon?  Yes, I would. I can imagine that because I can put myself in their place! Besides, I wrote for a newspaper when reporters could still be called reporters! 

As I have said before on this forum is that people leave out historical context and look back at history with all the knowledge of 2021!    Hindsight is 20/20 vision. .....

You remind me of these people who are pulling down statues of kings because they had a black page-boy - with 2021 vision he is now classified as a full blown racist!..... and worthy to be written out of history! 

People get realistic! We all know that one needs to believe in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus whether you go to heaven or live through Armageddon here on earth. 

This whole mud throwing title and the rhetoric  is just an artificially created storm in a tea cup.

 

[Pudgy]

27 minutes ago, Peter Carroll said:

yeah, all about nothing , and it shows how difficult for some to have the mind of christ,and its put me off tea for now!

Yeah, I understand your reticence.

Jesus obviously disliked tea.

He probably liked Manichevitz double thick, extra sweet Blackberry Wine, the kind that sticks to your teeth, and has to wear off. 

….. which brings up the question,  was Jesus subject to dental cavities? 

[Srecko Sostar]

19 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

A public talk titled "The World Has Ended; Millions Now Living May Never Die" was first delivered on February 24, 1918 in Los Angeles, California. Five weeks later, on March 31, 1918 the title was changed to indicate absolute certainty: "The World Has Ended; Millions Now Living Will Never Die." The public talk continued to be delivered under that same title until 1925.

The historical context is interesting because it confirms today’s perception of the past historical context. And that is: They expected Armageddon and the establishment of an earthly Paradise during their lifetime.  After the failure of hope, they started a dogma with heavenly life for the chosen earthlings (variations on this theme exist in JW literature)

Today’s WTJWorg context has refuted all of this as outdated and misconceptions. JW Hope has new models of belief and beliefs, today.

Then we have the Context of Present Time, which confirms that both the WTJWorg contexts, the one from the time of Rutherford and the one from the time of present (the year 2021) WTJWorg Administration, are revealed by failed and inaccurate expectations, beliefs and interpretations, aka dogmas.

JW Hope has new models of belief and teachings, which will be the reason for discussions in this or some other Forum in the future.

What Rutherford thought then, and what we think he thought then are two things. Whatever he thought can be assumed on the basis of books and magazines from that time. So, let me agree with the question from the title of this topic.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

You remind me of these people who are pulling down statues of kings because they had a black page-boy - with 2021 vision he is now classified as a full blown racist!..... and worthy to be written out of history! 

When time travel is invented, retro-police will give a friendly wave to American slaveholding forefathers and they race back through the eons to haul the real villains, the Ancient Greek pedophiles, back in leg irons

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

23 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

This teaching of only IBSA's or the JW's surviving through the G.T. and/or The Big "A" is, I thought, THE whole REASON for the preaching work or the ministry work. I can even remember it being spoken of as our spiritual act of worship. So what could possibly be a problem with PwfT saying, "So it would be good to know exactly who Rutherford expected to 'continue living," ?

 

23 hours ago, ApostaBabe Linda James said:

( BTW, during the reign of Rutherford there wasn't even 1 million members yet, so might he have been talking about those who were not yet members,

Thank you very much for your time and patience and understanding. It is something JWs appear to lack here.

I didn't answer 'Rambo'  because he is someone else, an AKA, and just looking for trouble.  I do not believe he/she is a JW.

Quoting you here :

This teaching of only IBSA's or the JW's surviving through the G.T.  (red highlight mine)

The IBSA was an Association, whereas the JW's is an Organisation.

I do not believe that the IBSA was a 'closed shop'. And, as you pointed out,  there wasn't even 1 million members yet.

I do believe that Rutherford was talking about those humans that were physically living at that time, never dying. 

So, my feeling is that Rutherford (when he took over from Russell) may have felt that many people that were not associated with the IBSA, would be judged as 'worthy' of 'saving' through Armageddon. 

But then Rutherford 'branched off' and formed an Organisation, Jehovah's Witnesses. 

Now back in the 1960's when i first started studying with JW's, I was told that the 'Org' was the 'new Ark'.  I was taught that anyone in the Org/Ark was 'safe', but all those outside the Org/Ark would die. Obviously the idea being based on Noah and his family being counted as righteous and therefore keptsafe in that Ark.

So I think that somewhere between the IBSA / Rutherford, and the 1960's, the line of thought changed from 'Millions' being saved, to, 'only JWs being saved'.  

However, I think there is a swing back to the idea, that many humans outside the JW Org, will be counted as worthy of 'saving'.  

I really thought that @JW Insider  would have given me a sensible answer as he has vast knowledge of JW doctrine / teachings. However it seems, Et tu brute, JWI. 

Thank you once again ABLJ. 

[Arauna]

53 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

line of thought changed from 'Millions' being saved, to, 'only JWs being saved'.  

YOU are not really worthy to answer because you are not interested in reasonable speech...you are a true hate- mongerer.  Believe what you like.... any reasonable answer will not suffice. You are here to create contention and controversy. ..... another hate-OCD case..... they always attack GB and some "historical" things which do not matter in the present time. ...... if David committed adultery under your watch he would never be forgiven and his sin dragged up all the time to dishonour him...... that is the kind of hateful spirit you eminate! It is not one of inquiry....... it comes from another motive - that of your " true father."

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I do believe that Rutherford was talking about those humans that were physically living at that time, never dying. 

So, my feeling is that Rutherford (when he took over from Russell) may have felt that many people that were not associated with the IBSA, would be judged as 'worthy' of 'saving' through Armageddon. 

I am convinced of the same conclusion.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

So I think that somewhere between the IBSA / Rutherford, and the 1960's, the line of thought changed from 'Millions' being saved, to, 'only JWs being saved'.  

Think also.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

However, I think there is a swing back to the idea, that many humans outside the JW Org, will be counted as worthy of 'saving'.  

I’m not familiar with the new teachings about it.

[Srecko Sostar]

30 minutes ago, Arauna said:

if David committed adultery under your watch

This is off topic. But when you mention it we can say that the David' act you are talking about (Bethsabe? Isn't it) did not take place in complete secrecy. Just between the two of them. There were several other courtiers who took part in the realization of the adultery. They, at some, became unconscious accomplices in the work. And since none of them "reported" adultery, then they became accomplices in the true sense of the word. 

To claim that David’s servants did not witness an indecent relationship would be ridiculous. What reason does the King, who is married, have to inquire about a married woman and invite her to his chambers? Only naive people can say that this was a harmless conversation about how to serve a dinner table. Today, in WTJWorg, there is an instruction that spending the night in the same house can be considered a reason to suspect fornication, adultery. So the question is not how would it go with David under John's supervision / watch, but how would it go under JW elders' supervision / watch?  

So David sent and inquired about the woman. And someone said, “Is this not Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” 4 Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. - 2 Sam 11:3,4

[TrueTomHarley]

35 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am convinced of the same conclusion.

In that case, you too understand nothing.

Look, it is all based on scripture. They’re not just pulling it out of their hats. The verse that directs them, then and now, is: 

“a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism” 1 Peter 3:21

You would have us believe that Rutherford meant any baptism by just any old church?

Do you recall the placard marches he organized, with sometimes hundreds of friends holding aloft alternating signs that read:

“There’s good in all religions!”

and

“It Doesn’t Matter What You Believe as Long as You’re Sincere!”

or did those signs carry other words?

 

[Space Merchant]

Weren't some of these addressed a while back? I remember someone quoting 4Castle.