Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism” 1 Peter 3:21

You would have us believe that Rutherford meant any baptism by just any old church?

It's strange that you answer @Srecko Sostar  in this way, but you would not answer me. 

This does bring up another question though. The IBSA was an association, not an Organisation.  If I'm right then they didn't have Leaders as such because each congregation 'ruled over itself'.  So there was no 'church' structure as such. 

In fact I think Russell was against there being an Organisation. Now that obviously changed later when Rutherford took over. 

So now, this brings the question, Who was 'qualified' to baptise others at the time of Rutherford.

In the 1st century the disciples / apostles were firstly chosen by Jesus, then later they were Anointed. 

It also brings up the question as to who is, in God's viewpoint, qualified to baptise people now. 

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Weren't some of these addressed a while back? I remember someone quoting 4Castle.

I've never heard of 4Castle. 

[TrueTomHarley]

17 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The IBSA was an association, not an Organisation.  If I'm right

You’re not.

You live in such a bizarre world of conspiratorial initials that even if one is inclined to answer you one barely knows what to say.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You’re not.

You live in such a bizarre world of conspiratorial initials that even if one is inclined to answer you one barely knows what to say.

That's a bit of a contradiction as you managed to answer @Srecko Sostar when he had agreed with my earlier comments. It seem to point out that you do not wish to converse with me in a Christian manner. That's your choice.

However, IBSA  = International Bible Students ASSOCIATION. That was not an Organisation. 

Another point (which may interest @Space Merchant ) in connection with the IBSA.  It seems that it still exists, but as a Real Estate dealership. 

IBSA London Properties is part of IBSA (International Bible Students Association) a registered charity acting on behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Britain and Ireland. For more information about Jehovah’s Witnesses please follow this link.

[TrueTomHarley]

38 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

However, IBSA  = International Bible Students ASSOCIATION. That was not an Organisation. 

 

Tell it to Merriam Webster: 

Definition of association

2: an organization of persons having a common interest : 

 

 https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/association

 (bolding mine)

The words are synonymous. Nothing to get all worked up over. You haven’t discovered the smoking gun. Sheesh.

Pestilential as Srecko may be, he does not make such ridiculous statements. He makes other ridiculous statements.

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This is off topic.

I do not believe it is. Historically she would have brought up all the older things he did or said - like she is now going into far back history and expecting 2021 behavior and answers

[Arauna]

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

im that David’s servants did not witness an indecent relationship

I am talking about her sense of justice and of context of time - she has none.  That is why she is so adamant about old history - she drags it up all the time.  That is why I said she will drag up old stuff even if she lived in the time of David.

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I've never heard of 4Castle. 

Concerning the pastor, Rutherford, 4Castle was quoted before, and some of his quotes, some people have the same ailment, even those who are not in the same faith or is a member of any Abrahamic Faith.

59 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

However, IBSA  = International Bible Students ASSOCIATION. That was not an Organisation. 

Another point (which may interest @Space Merchant ) in connection with the IBSA.  It seems that it still exists, but as a Real Estate dealership. 

IBSA London Properties is part of IBSA (International Bible Students Association) a registered charity acting on behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Britain and Ireland. For more information about Jehovah’s Witnesses please follow this link.

Kind of beating a dead horse when this was responded to before, as is with Smurf Girl's conspiracy, in addition, to the fact something based in an isolated location, not really being international, so to speak.

That being said, you brought this up before... Also word association "charity acting on behalf of", should be known as to what that implies.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It's strange that you answer @Srecko Sostar  in this way, but you would not answer me. 

This does bring up another question though. The IBSA was an association, not an Organisation.  If I'm right then they didn't have Leaders as such because each congregation 'ruled over itself'.  So there was no 'church' structure as such. 

In fact I think Russell was against there being an Organisation. Now that obviously changed later when Rutherford took over. 

So now, this brings the question, Who was 'qualified' to baptise others at the time of Rutherford.

In the 1st century the disciples / apostles were firstly chosen by Jesus, then later they were Anointed. 

It also brings up the question as to who is, in God's viewpoint, qualified to baptise people now. 

 

Everything what WTS creates under various names are smaller or larger corporations. These are companies that have a mode of operation led and controlled by the WTS. Who founded which of these companies is not known to me nor have I done any research on it. Which companies were founded by Watch Tower Society (WTS), and which organizations were founded by subcompanies, if they did, I don't know (Watchtower New York, Watch Tower Pennsylvania, IBSA and others; subsidiary company is a company that belongs to another company,) . So, overall, each of these organizations is under the patronage of the WTS.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

 

Tell it to Merriam Webster: 

Definition of association

2: an organization of persons having a common interest : 

 

 https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/association

 (bolding mine)

The words are synonymous. Nothing to get all worked up over. You haven’t discovered the smoking gun. Sheesh.

Pestilential as Srecko may be, he does not make such ridiculous statements. He makes other ridiculous statements.

An organisation of persons, lower case 'o', not an Organisation such as a registered company. 

But I know you are just trying to appear clever. And You know that RUSSELL didn't want an Organisation.

Hence all congregations ruled themselves, not ruled over by Leaders of an Organisation. 

But Rutherford changed all that, and that rulership by men continues unfortunately. 

 

[Dmitar]

On 10/7/2021 at 1:22 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

So it would be good to know exactly who Rutherford expected to 'continue living'. 

Those stuck in internal damnation and those who didn't know God and Christ. He should have said, BILLIONS now living will never die. The restitution applies to all, not just the saints. Pastor Russell was focused on the saints. Brother Rutherford expanded it to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, his wording can be misdirected by many, even the Bible Students. 

1920-MILLIONS NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE

Reconstruction page 90

The Apostle Peter at Pentecost, speaking under divine inspiration, and referring to that time, said: "Times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shalI send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive [retain] until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets

since the world began". --Acts 3:19-21.

There is a phrase that has captured the minds of a few. 

 

1899-Tabernacle Shadows of the better Sacrifice page 109

 

Not, however, of themselves would these lessons of faithfulness in the past be valuable to us, but only by, through and associated with the sin -offerings of the Day of Atonement, to which the Apostle refers in the same connection- the blood of bulls and goats." And not only are

the remembrance and lessons of the faithfulness of the ancient worthies (typified by the ashes of the red heifer) of sanctifying power to us now, but in a much larger sense they will be applicable and a blessing to the world of mankind in general during the Millennial age. For, as we have elsewhere seen, the divine arrangement is that these ancient worthies, the greatest of which is less in honor than the least one in the Kingdom, will nevertheless occupy a place of high honor and distinction under that Kingdom of God, -as its agents and representatives.

 

This phrase "ancient worthies"  suggest to some to mean, literally. This is why, unmentioned conspirators believe, this is why Brother Rutherford built Beth Sarim.

[Dmitar]

9 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The IBSA was an Association, whereas the JW's is an Organisation.

I can understand how misconception can be attributed to how the Bible Students operated. The word "association" is a superficial word for the sake of legal standing, nothing more.

[R4593 : page 119]

INTERNATIONAL BIBLE STUDENT’S ASSOCIATION

FOR many years the dear friends who regularly meet all over the world for the study of God's Word, using WATCH TOWER publications as helping hands, have been perplexed to know how to advertise themselves. We have continually warned against everything simulating sectarianism and Churchianity. But we have been at a loss to know what to suggest to the friends along this line. It is true that wherever two or three are met in the Lord's name, they would be entitled, if they chose, to speak of themselves as a Church. But if the name Church be used our friends and neighbors inquire, What Church, What denomination? And we find it impossible to explain to them in a reasonable time that we do not mean a sect or party separate from other Christians. Indeed, there is danger of our losing sight of the fact that we are non-sectarian—that we acknowledge all as brethren and members of our Church, Christ's Church, the Church of God, who give evidence of full consecration to self-sacrifice, following in the footsteps of the Redeemer. There is a disposition on the part of [R4593 : page 120] some, unconsciously, to fellowship only such Christians as are outside of all denominations. Our true position, nevertheless, is that we recognize all loyal to our Redeemer, whether babes or fully-grown, whether in Babylon or out of her, whether they follow with us or indirectly speak evil of us.

Now in the Lord's providence we have thought of a title suitable, we believe, to the Lord's people everywhere, and free from objection, we believe, on every score—the title at the head of this article. It fairly represents our sentiments and endeavors. We are Bible Students. We welcome all of God's people to join with us in the study. We believe that the result of such studies is blessed and unifying. We recommend therefore that the little classes everywhere and the larger ones adopt this unobjectionable style and that they use it in the advertising columns of their newspapers. Thus friends everywhere will know how to recognize them when visiting strange cities.

Under New York State law, it would be run under the People's Pulpit Association. Other denominations in that era spoke of themselves as Bible Students, even though Pastor Russell claimed to be a congregationalist.

Some might ask why? For what Jesus spoke of as unity, and the prophets as oneness.