Millions Now Living Will Never Die! by J.F. Rutherford ??????????? A few questions.

[Dmitar]

19th century arguments

Eternal damnation, Eternal Punishment, immortality? Restitution

  Isaiah 26

 ¹⁴ The dead do not live; departed spirits do not rise up. Indeed, you have punished and destroyed them; you have wiped out all memory of them.

Commentary

26:14 A contrast exists between this statement and v. 19. In this verse, the wicked dead stay dead. God’s judgment will not be reversed. A fuller understanding of the afterlife awaits the NT period (though it is anticipated in passages like Dn 12:2).

Colossians 3:9-10

ONLY in our minds, in our wills, have the old things passed away, and all things become new. Actually, this change will be accomplished when this mortal shall have put on immortality, when this corruptible shall be raised in incorruption--raised in glory, in power, spirit beings. But meantime, in order to be counted worthy of a share in the First Resurrection,
it is required of us that we shall demonstrate our willingness of mind, our earnest desire to be all that the Lord would have us be; and in no way can this be better demonstrated to the Lord and to ourselves, or prove more helpful, than by keeping a strict surveillance of our hearts and of our thoughts. Z.'04-25 R3307:4

[Anna]

8 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

then what exactly is happening here ?

This image happening would have to mean that ALL those people have ALREADY BEEN JUDGED. 

I'm getting the feeling that Armageddon and Judgement Day are two seperate things. 

Yes, it is two separate things. As the article says, Armageddon will destroy those who support the current system of things. 

Judgement day (the 1000 years) is for those who have died before Armageddon and are resurrected. They will be judged either worthy or not worty of everlasting life at the end of the 1000 years.

The image is obviously depicting Armageddon, and yes, they have been judged.

[BroRando]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Yes, it is two separate things. As the article says, Armageddon will destroy those who support the current system of things. 

Judgement day (the 1000 years) is for those who have died before Armageddon and are resurrected. They will be judged either worthy or not worty of everlasting life at the end of the 1000 years.

The image is obviously depicting Armageddon, and yes, they have been judged.

There is a Judgement of the living and dead. Today we are in the Judgement of the Living.... it's pre-millennial. 

The Judgement of the living is pre-millienial during Christ's Presence of the Last Days. Once the wicked deny Christ's Presence as a whole, then comes the revealing phase of Christ's Undeniable Presence.

Read more...

[Srecko Sostar]

16 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/wp20150501/what-does-the-end-mean/

@JW Insider   Images like this do not seem to make much sense to me. 

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201001/what-is-judgment-day/

Quote : 

Judgment Day will be a period of a thousand years during which humans will have the opportunity to regain what Adam and Eve lost. 

If JUDGEMENT DAY is 1,000 years long, and the judge is Jesus Christ, then what exactly is happening here ?

This image happening would have to mean that ALL those people have ALREADY BEEN JUDGED. 

I'm getting the feeling that Armageddon and Judgement Day are two seperate things. 

This picture looks like Armageddon. But I would have thought that Armageddon was only the destruction of the 'wicked' people. Hence the 'wicked' would already have been judged prior to the Judgement Day. 

This image looks to be killing indiscriminatly. So when would this take place ?  Would this be at the end of the 1,000 years, the destruction of all those that would not serve God through Christ ? 

It seriously does not make sense to me. 

It must be acknowledged that every aspect of the public preaching conducted by WTJWorg, practically from its inception, involves the proclamation of Armageddon and the global destruction of an unknown number of people, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ and God and their rule, it is the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, in that sense, the verdict/judgement was passed a long time ago and no "Judgment Day" is needed as a separate period of time in which people should be tried on the basis of some other criteria. For, according to such an interpretation, Armageddon is the only real turning point for this imperfect humanity.

What WTJWorg reads from the Bible is the emergence of some new humanity after Armageddon, which God believes needs to pass a new test, proving that they are worth living after literally 1000 years of the Earthly Kingdom of Heaven.

Thus, most (unknown number) of imperfect humanity living today deserves to be executed in Armageddon. The perfect humanity that will emerge under the leadership of WTJWorg Princes deserves to be examined, and only then to be, and again it is a large (unknown) number of perfect individuals who do not satisfy, destroyed in some kind of subsequent Armageddon.

Imperfect humanity ends in Armageddon.

Perfect humanity ends in Final Test.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 10/10/2021 at 3:31 PM, Anna said:

Judgement day (the 1000 years) is for those who have died before Armageddon and are resurrected. They will be judged either worthy or not worty of everlasting life at the end of the 1000 years.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201001/what-is-judgment-day/

Jesus Judges “the Living”

We are now nearing the foretold end of the present system of things, when God will destroy all elements of corrupt human society  and remove the wicked. Survivors of this system’s end are “the living” who will be judged.—Revelation 7:9-14; 19:11-16.

During that period of judgment, which will last 1,000 years, Christ Jesus along with 144,000 men and women resurrected to life in heaven will rule over the earth. They will serve as kings and priests, administering the benefits of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice and progressively elevating faithful humans to physical and mental perfection.—Revelation 5:10; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.

Anna, this is talking about the Survivors that live through 'this system's end'. 

But they must have already been judged worth saving, and, they must have been hiding somewhere safe, because that picture looks like ALL people are being killed. 

When we think of Sodom and Gomorrah, everyone there was destroyed. This image, and many more like it, seem to be based on the destruction on Soddom and Gomorrah, complete destruction. 

23 hours ago, BroRando said:

Today we are in the Judgement of the Living.

What you say makes sense, but it isn't what the WT article says. 

[Dmitar]

15 hours ago, BroRando said:

There is a Judgement of the living and dead. Today we are in the Judgement of the Living.... it's pre-millennial. 

 

5 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Jesus Judges “the Living”

*** w65 3/15 p. 181 par. 16 Earthly Opportunity Opened Up by Resurrection ***
16 The High Priest Jesus Christ is the “One decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead...(Acts 10:42, 43; 17:31; 2 Tim. 4:1) In order that there may be a righteous judgment of the dead as well as of the sheeplike people who live through the battle of Armageddon, the dead must be resurrected from Haʹdes or Sheol.
 

I would say, unless there is a clear understanding of Christ restitution, the formidable will continue to be hazy. It is clear the same subject is being presented by opposite ends. But still lacks a comprehensive explanation. 

[Arauna]

18 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

se who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ and God and their rule, it is the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, in that sense, the verdict/judgement was passed a long time ago and no "Judgment Day" is needed as a separate period of time in which people should be tried on the basis of some other criteria. For, according to such an interpretation, Armageddon is the only real turning point for

As you know, I preached amongst Muslims.  The bible clearly indicates (notthe GB) that one has to accept the ransom sacrifice and have faith in the resurrection of Jesus to be raised yourself!  Muslims as well as other religions do NOT accept the death of Christ.  So you can decide what you think!  While many of them are very sweet they do not believe in the concept of sin.  They just want the mercy of god!

The judgment Day is not what people think!  Judgment does NOT just have the meaning of giving punishment.  If you go to court- BOTH sides are heard to give a final judgment.  It will be the same under Christ's kingdom.  Those unrighteous ones who have a resurrection will be taught from the new scrolls that will be opened. They will be judged according to their deeds after learning the truth!.

Ezekiel 9 talks about the angel with the inkpot that will mark everyone for survival through Armageddon. We are in this period right now!  The winds of destruction are being held back for the 144000 to be sealed and also for the great crowd to be marked!   We are marked according to our Christian personality.   Most other Christian denominations are ready to fight with their guns and are ready to stand up to the government (get politically involved!) which is the mark of the beast! .......Is that displaying the "christian personality"?  So you judge JWs when we say that few will be saved through Armageddon..... but the bible itself says this!  The bible itself says they must have the name of the father AND the son!   If you read your bible regularly you will feel guilty over any behavior that is unacceptable to Jehovah and adjust it according to the righteous standards of God - being NICE is NOT the criteria!      Accepting Jehovah and his Son means that we also accept those "principles " which most people find tedious and unnecessary!

 

[Pudgy]

39 minutes ago, Arauna said:

  Accepting Jehovah and his Son means that we also accept those "principles " which most people find tedious and unnecessary!

I agree with you there ... just as long as I do not have to accept "Overlapping Generations", which as far as I know, was never taught by Jesus, but is taught by the Governing Body.

 

[Arauna]

2 minutes ago, Pudgy said:

do not have to accept "Overlapping Generations",

Without going into details - we live in the X-generation at present. But this generation also comprises Baby boomers and Millennials.... so is that not overlapping? 

[Pudgy]

5 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Without going into details - we live in the X-generation at present. But this generation also comprises Baby boomers and Millennials.... so is that not overlapping? 

That is not the question you should be asking.

The question you should be asking is this:

"When Jesus was talking to his Disciples, was he teaching "Overlapping Generations?".

The answer is NO!

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

So you judge JWs when we say that few will be saved through Armageddon..... but the bible itself says this! 

Rutherford said "MILLIONS now living will never die", and at that time there were not even one million of 'them'.  But then he 'invented' the Jehovah's Witnesses, and then something happened where the teaching became 'Only JW's will survive because the Org is the 'New Ark'.  @JW Insider has written that the 'feeling in the Org' is not to guess how many wil be saved. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This is from the Watchtower as I've shown before. 

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/g201001/what-is-judgment-day/

Jesus Judges “the Living”

We are now nearing the foretold end of the present system of things, when God will destroy all elements of corrupt human society  and remove the wicked. Survivors of this system’s end are “the living” who will be judged.—Revelation 7:9-14; 19:11-16.

During that period of judgment, which will last 1,000 years, Christ Jesus along with 144,000 men and women resurrected to life in heaven will rule over the earth. They will serve as kings and priests, administering the benefits of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice and progressively elevating faithful humans to physical and mental perfection.—Revelation 5:10; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.

( That is the Judging of those that live through Armageddon. )

 

Judging “the Dead”

The Bible says that during Judgment Day the dead will “rise up.” (Matthew 12:41) Jesus said that “the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28, 29) This is not referring to disembodied souls of those who have died. The dead are totally unconscious and do not have a soul that survives death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; John 11:11-14, 23, 24) Jesus will bring those asleep in death back to life again on earth.

Will the judgment of resurrected ones be based on what they did before their death? No. The Bible teaches that “he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” (Romans 6:7) So, like those who survive the end of this system, those resurrected to life on earth will be judged “according to their deeds” during Judgment Day. (Revelation 20:12, 13) Depending on the final outcome of their actions, this will turn out to be either a resurrection that results in everlasting life or a resurrection that results in destruction. Many of those restored to life will for the first time come to know about Jehovah God and his requirements for life. They will have the opportunity to live in harmony with God’s will and receive everlasting life on earth.

( So the Living and the resurrected Dead will ALL be judged, according to Watchtower teachings ) 

Rando says that the living are being judged now, and that makes sense. But this W/t information says the Living will be judged after Armageddon. Survivors of this system’s end are “the living” who will be judged.

Anna said it is the resurrected dead that will be judged during the 1,000 years. She is right but it will also include those that live through Armageddon. So, like those who survive the end of this system, those resurrected to life on earth will be judged “according to their deeds” during Judgment Day.

Arauna, In your comment above 

Ezekiel 9 talks about the angel with the inkpot that will mark everyone for survival through Armageddon. We are in this period right now!  The winds of destruction are being held back for the 144000 to be sealed and also for the great crowd to be marked!   We are marked according to our Christian personality.  ................  The bible itself says they must have the name of the father AND the son!   If you read your bible regularly you will feel guilty over any behavior that is unacceptable to Jehovah and adjust it according to the righteous standards of God - being NICE is NOT the criteria!      Accepting Jehovah and his Son means that we also accept those "principles " which most people find tedious and unnecessary!

 I agree with this. But I note you do not say that one 'has to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses' 

Which then brings me back to the point of the JW teaching, that one has to be a baptised JW to be saved'. 

Remember how the teaching about the Superior Authorities (Romans) was taught properly by Russell/Rutherford (one of them), but then is was misused by the Watchtower / JW org. Then eventually it got put right again. 

Well maybe Rutherford was right about the Millions outside of the 'fold' being saved, but then the Watchtower / JW Org misused the idea. Maybe it will swing back the other way soon. 

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Rutherford said "MILLIONS now living will never die",

Just for fun. Perhaps "Overlapping millions" will never die. Because the overlap goes on and on ..,