How were JW elders who were really Communist Spies appointed by "Holy Spirit"?

[Space Merchant]

27 minutes ago, Isabella said:

My question was regarding the process from the beggining. I was NOT asking about men being appointed and then turning into wolves and betraying the christian congregations as Judas did or others in the 1st century and later. I meant about the appointment of  men that from the beggining had the intention/purpose of damaging the congregation. I see it has happened in other countries like Rumania.  Also found interesting this Bible verse, but I am not sure if those false brothers mentioned in Galatas 2:4 were appointed 🤔

 

 

 

Tactics of the Enemy

In their attempts to weaken the faith of Jehovah’s servants or to bully them into submission, the Communists employed spies, traitors, torture, lying propaganda, and the threat of death. Spies and informers included neighbors, work colleagues, apostates, family members, and Securitate agents. The latter even infiltrated congregations by feigning interest in the truth and learning theocratic terms. These “false brothers” did much harm and caused many arrests. One of them, Savu Gabor, even held a responsible position. He was exposed in 1969.—Gal. 2:4.

 

But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly,+ who slipped in to spy on the freedom+ we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us;+

 

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/302006006?q=spies+romania&p=par

The link also mentioned the accusation of Communism. Hence, this tactic can be weaponized against anyone, even them. They do have tactics to dismantle, which is not unknown to anyone, an example of this, a parallel is the events of Russia.

 

Communists do not like change, even if it is a small one. You may want to re check that article regards to the actions of the Communists themselves and what they attempt to do.

[xero]

Just now, Isabella said:

My question was regarding the process from the beggining. I was NOT asking about men being appointed and then turning into wolves and betraying the christian congregations as Judas did or others in the 1st century and later. I meant about the appointment of  men that from the beggining had the intention/purpose of damaging the congregation. I see it has happened in other countries like Rumania.  Also found interesting this Bible verse, but I am not sure if those false brothers mentioned in Galatas 2:4 were appointed 🤔

 

 

 

Tactics of the Enemy

In their attempts to weaken the faith of Jehovah’s servants or to bully them into submission, the Communists employed spies, traitors, torture, lying propaganda, and the threat of death. Spies and informers included neighbors, work colleagues, apostates, family members, and Securitate agents. The latter even infiltrated congregations by feigning interest in the truth and learning theocratic terms. These “false brothers” did much harm and caused many arrests. One of them, Savu Gabor, even held a responsible position. He was exposed in 1969.—Gal. 2:4.

 

But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly,+ who slipped in to spy on the freedom+ we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us;+

 

 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/302006006?q=spies+romania&p=par

Jehovah, in his view of time and all the elements which make up this universe in my view has examined all the paths which free will might take, so he would know how to minimally get involved in any given situation such that his will is done.

Now this is my faith, and I take it as true and consistent with what I know about Jehovah. I can and do wonder about points along the way and find myself speculating as have others as to why Jehovah would allow this or that other thing to take place, but I can never conclude that his will won't be done. Any one of us may pass off the scene ,momentarily, but the time we have now ought to be an opportunity to see how we can better fit in with what we understand Jehovah's will and purposes to be both now and in the future.

Having said this one might argue variously that it suited holy spirit for men who from the beginning had ill will towards the brothers. Would Jehovahs' will be thwarted by these men? No. These could only injure themselves in the long term.

Ultimately the only mark we can ever leave is one which is left by sticking to Jehovah. Jehovah is permanent, and his will is what stands. We can also choose to cease to exist by rejecting him. That's the sum of what we as individuals can do long term.

The rest in between now and then of any series of events is just fuel for speculation. Of course I speculate as much as anyone else does, but I always ask myself "Does this speculation make Jehovah look better to me as the author of all morality or not?" If not, then I must have forgotten to carry the one someplace in my moral mathematics.

[Srecko Sostar]

26 minutes ago, xero said:

Now this is my faith, and I take it as true and consistent with what I know about Jehovah.

Your statement is beautifully uttered, but it cannot confirm that your knowledge and belief, in the form you practice, is true or false. It is your personal experience, personal conclusion and personal opinion. As such, it can be tested and verified and accepted or rejected, not only by people (in general) but also by the God you believe in.

[Space Merchant]

27 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

As such, it can be tested and verified and accepted or rejected, not only by people (in general) but also by the God you believe in.

But even when tested, those in opposition will cater to misinformation and justify it as a truth. Unfortunately the unaware are victimized by this type of thing. In regards, the truth is anything pertaining to CCP and or equate to it concerning powers and or governments do not favor the change and will enact any means necessary to prevent it, even by means of propaganda. Propaganda, depending on the level of it, can even sway members of a faith as well as former members of the faith should it be allowed. There are, literally even examples of things on this forums alone, i.e. Should the NYT make a hit piece, some will believe it because it has something it caters to the unaware.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 11/12/2021 at 3:43 AM, Isabella said:

Sorry for my terrible English, it is not my native language and where I live we only speak Spanish: How would you reconcile the affirmation of elders and ministerial servants being appointed by God when in the 80's in my country as in other countries, specially under Communist regime, there have been undercover men pretending being interested to the point of  becoming elders. Who appointed these men as elders or ministerial servants?

The simple answer is that the JW Org is not guided by or watched over by Almighty God or Jesus Christ. 

Many men in many congregations would not have been given appointments of 'power' over others, if God and/or Christ had any part of it. I will hold back from mentioning a serious problem in the Org, which obviously proves my point. 

My own brother is an Elder in a congregation and he admits that many Elders are not fit for purpose, and that they were never fit for purpose. One very big problem here in the UK seems to be, the lack of voluteers to take on responsibilty. Hence my brother, who is now 80 years old, has to keep doing his 'duty'.  He is losing his memory, suffers with anxiety and sleeplessness, but he has to keep on serving the Org, because no one wants to do the job he does. (I think the virus problem has actually been good for him, with KH closed, he can relax a bit ). 

So, in my opinion, men that are appointed to positions of 'responsibiity' in the Org would be men that want a bit of 'power' and would be friends of other elders. A sort of 'boys club' where only certain types of men would want to be part of it.  Once again there seems to be proof of that, which has given the Org a bad reputation. 

The one thing that has been made clear ( Luke 8 : 17)  is that Nothing in the Watchtower / JW Org is inspired of God's Holy Spirit. The GB finally admitted that they are NOT INSPIRED, and they call themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave. So if the GB are not inspired, but they take the lead, then it would follow that the rest of the Watchtower / JW Org is not inspired. 

Isabella, you need to know that you cannot trust 'men'. That is, you cannot trust Elders or Ministerial Servants.  Remember that you want to serve God through Christ. You do not want to serve men.  You cannot even trust the GB.

Many JWs do not trust the GB. Even JWs on this forum do not believe everything that the GB writes or says.

It is your choice to remain in the JW Org or to leave it. But even if you remain in it, do not trust it. 

[Witness]

4 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

 

 

Isabella, you need to know that you cannot trust 'men'. That is, you cannot trust Elders or Ministerial Servants.  Remember that you want to serve God through Christ. You do not want to serve men.  You cannot even trust the GB.

 

 

Yes, especially men who, without so much as a blink, tell you that God and Jesus trust them, so you must trust them also.  Who, in their right mind would make such an arrogant stand before the Almighty God, unless they were narcissistic, without one humble bone in their body?  They defy God and His principles of righteousness.  They believe their sins are glossed over by God and Jesus, that they will not be held accountable for their record of false teachings. But then, I don't believe they feel they do sin. They have convinced JW's that these men have already been found acceptable to rule in the kingdom of God.  Those on the elder body who display the same narcissism, believe they will rule over JW's on the earth. None of this, is God's plan.  

 

 

 

[Pudgy]

Sometimes .... a mission that people undertake willingly .... are not led into battle by paragons of virtue and righteousness ... or even compassion and awareness.

I firmly believe that .... given enough time ... virtue and righteousness in the minds and hearts of men will prevail but often through the efforts of men with serious flaws, requiring mountains of bodies and oceans of blood, and fields covered in hardships of ruined lives caused by error.

This is what happens in the REAL world ..... and until we have perfect government .... THIS WILL ALWAYS BE TRUE.

Get used to the idea, or go bat crap crazy with a screwed up version of reality.

In the meantime .... the very best you can do is TRUST NO ONE ... and do your best not to become someones' cannon fodder.

....sometimes the mission is more important than ones' indignation.

[Srecko Sostar]

2 hours ago, Pudgy said:

sometimes the mission is more important than ones' indignation.

I like your view. But have to ask what is the mission of WTJWorg?  

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

5 hours ago, Pudgy said:

In the meantime .... the very best you can do is TRUST NO ONE ... and do your best not to become someones' cannon fodder.

Unfortunately many young children have become 'cannon fodder' in the JW Org, and so have many adults. 

 

5 hours ago, Pudgy said:

through the efforts of men with serious flaws, requiring mountains of bodies and oceans of blood, and fields covered in hardships of ruined lives caused by error.

ERROR ? No, deliberate sin. Deliberate crime by people in 'power', in the Watchtower Soc and JW Org. 

 

[Anna]

On 11/11/2021 at 11:00 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

If “appointed by holy spirit“ is supposed to be some sort of “foolproof” process, how could Paul have said (Acts 20:30) to first-century elders, “from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves?”

Good reasoning, but it is talking about what some of them became later, at least that's how I understand it, whereas those communist spies were already bad when they were appointed, they fooled the brothers, did they also fool Jehovah? (Obviously not). 

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Anna said:

Good reasoning, but it is talking about what some of them became later, at least that's how I understand it, whereas those communist spies were already bad when they were appointed, they fooled the brothers, did they also fool Jehovah? (Obviously not). 

It has never been presented as a foolproof process:

“In view of the fact that humans are involved in the appointment of elders, there is a possibility of choosing an unqualified man to serve, for humans are not able to read the heart. That is why the apostle Paul cautioned Timothy: “Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others; preserve yourself chaste.” (1 Tim. 5:22) If he had acted prematurely in appointing an elder, Timothy would have had to bear a measure of responsibility for whatever wrongs such an unqualified man committed.”

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101979493#h=6

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If he had acted prematurely in appointing an elder, Timothy would have had to bear a measure of responsibility for whatever wrongs such an unqualified man committed.”

Following on from your quote. This is the next paragraph. 

"Today, too, the matter of sharing in the sins of others needs to be given due consideration before any man is chosen to serve as an overseer. We should never forget that the congregation is God’s, purchased with the blood of his Son. Therefore, if there be any mistreatment of the flock, the men responsible as well as those who shared in choosing unqualified persons will have an accountability with the Most High, who purchased the flock at great cost to himself. So men having any share in the making of appointments need to be very conscientious in letting themselves be guided by God’s Word and his spirit."

Wow. Now this needs some deep thinking about. Maybe they should also have accountability to the Law of the land. The sharing in the sins. Elders covering up for other Elders. 

You see the big differences between the 1st Century true Christians and the modern day 'pretend' Christians. But you still try to compare them. @Anna can see the difference. 

So, when the excuse is used concerning CSA, that the Elders were not qualified to deal with such matters. Then it would follow that whom ever elected those unqualified Elders would also be responsible for the mistreatment of victims of CSA. You see that takes the idea from just being theory to being real life issues..