Paradise… Will it come?

[Pudgy]

As regards the thread topic “Paradise … Will It Come?”, perhaps in our lifetimes …. Perhaps not, but some peoples’ concept of “Paradise” may not be exactly as expected.

[BroRando]

2 hours ago, Chioke Lin said:

Can this be said, Adam and Eve had never experienced evil, while imperfect beings have. So, the millennial reign will be an experience for those imperfect souls to regain something that was lost.

Why did God choice to make it a 1000-year reign, before he allows Satan to stand again before man? Can it be, it's just one day. Did all those that believed in Gods, miracles through Moses, stand firm with their loyalty? If, Israelites could be convinced to be disloyal, that will be the final test for mankind by means of Satan's release.

Interesting thought.  Adam and Eve were Perfect. Their assignment was to expand the Garden of Eden earthwide. While Adam was still a Bachelor and very early after being created, "Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.  But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Genesis 2:15-17)

They already had everlasting life. The only way for them to lose everlasting life was to become disobedient. Then all would be lost. They would indeed have to endure hardship as they began to die and turn back to dust. The same place they came from come from, the dirt. 

"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)  Death was the pubishment of them returning to the dust.  Not some kind of eternal torture. Thus, they became imperfect and inherited all the ailments that came with sickness and old age.  Therefore, their offspring would inherit imperfection has a result. These would endure hardships through out life as imperfect human beings. 

Question: "Why did God choice to make it a 1000-year reign, before he allows Satan to stand again before man?"

Answer: He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." Acts 1:7

However, Jehovah is now making his will known. "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

 

Question: "Did all those that believed in Gods, miracles through Moses, stand firm with their loyalty?"

Answer: Only a few like Jousha and Aaron and some of their offspring. Most did not stand firm during the 40 year trek and Pharoah despised the miracles given. Check out the ten plagues.

 

Question: "If, Israelites could be convinced to be disloyal, that will be the final test for mankind by means of Satan's release."

Answer:  "Now I want you to know, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea  and all got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea,  and all ate the same spiritual food and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock meant the Christ. Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness." (1 Corinthians 10:1-5)

Those who were struck down will not stand or be there for the final test for mankind by means of Satan's release. They already died the second death in the same manner as Adam and Eve. The are dead forever returning to dust. 

So who are the ones that are resurrected and will stand again?

[The Librarian]

10 minutes ago, Peter Carroll said:

you twisted use of pathetic illustrations are nothing more than a waste of everyones time

Warning! @Peter Carroll

"As far as it depends upon you, be peaceable with all men."

Please try to be nice, be respectful.

It is ok to disagree.... state that simply without the emotionally charged adjectives as much as possible.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

4 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

In my opinion this org is not pleasent and is not safe to be in. I believe it is used as a social club for many lonely people and now that direct witnessing is not required it could become an easy hiding place for unpleasent people. My suggestion is that people do not get involved with this organisation. 

@The Librarian I hope this is polite enough. 

[Witness]

11 hours ago, Pudgy said:

(….. Pudgy feels a sudden chill in the room, as if someone has pulled a sharpened wooden stake from the lifeless heart of Wally McNasty, and ….. naw …. Probably just a semantic coincidence …..).

For some strange reason, all of a sudden I feel the need to buy LOTS of garlic …. 

…. perhaps a touch of Covid-19 going around, no more.

I've had the same chill for the last few days.  I believe now seeing a traditional comma out of place, may prove this chill  isn't from covid.  

 

[Pudgy]

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I've had the same chill for the last few days.  I believe now seeing a traditional comma out of place, may prove this chill  isn't from covid.  

I noticed 4 separate “tells”. …. Similar to knowing who was or was not the actual person sending Morse Code, by their “fist”.

[BroRando]

11 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

God's Name in Very Old Bibles... Enjoy!! Dated from 1877 to 1477.

Gods name in 19 old bibles from 1877 - 1477 LORD Yahweh Jehovah - KJV - Tyndale - Geneva.mp4

Hey  @Patiently waiting for Truth  Notice the screenshot at the 12:10 timeline.

 

[Witness]

2 hours ago, Pudgy said:

I noticed 4 separate “tells”.

I just don’t get the innocent ruse hailing concepts out of the ordinary, which is why I kept questioning my gut feeling.

[Witness]

23 hours ago, BroRando said:

Satan will be released from the abyss to test Perfect Mankind when Jesus brings mankind to perfection.   It's "a timed event."

Have a cup of chamomile tea and relax, without putting up your guard beforehand, believing that all I say is a lie.  

We don't need to be physically perfect to be found righteous before God.  Following the laws of God in Christ's words, is based on love.  

 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be like your Father in heaven, since he causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don’t they? 47 And if you only greet your brothers, what more do you do? Even the Gentiles do the same, don’t they? 48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."   Matt 5:43-48

 

We also can’t lose sight, or excuse away, the promises that the Kingdom offers.  There is no glitch, no hiccup, no pause in the hope of Rev 21:1-4; otherwise we would be saying that God’s promises are worthless.  The Wt. has created a pause for an indefinite period in their teaching of “paradise”, how? Through the doctrine of men.   So, by using ‘scripture to interpret scripture’, the thousand-year reign of Christ must be understood through God’s word. 

“Thousand” – have you ever noticed that while Jesus was on the earth, he fed 5,000 and 4,000 people?  Do you really believe that these figures represent the exact amount of people fed?  What about “7,000” “who did bow the knee to Baal”? These are big numbers that clarify a fullness - an accomplishment of an action.  What about “144,000”?  Again, this is symbolic, and signifies completeness, the accomplishment and full authority of the Temple (1 Cor 3:16; Eph 2:20-22) reaching fruition in the Body of Jesus Christ.  (Zech 4:8-10; Rom 8:19; Rev 21:22-24)

There are no specifics to these statements, only fulfillment:

Deut 1:11 –  ^“Indeed, may the Lord, the God of your ancestors, make you a thousand times more numerous than you are now, blessing you just as he said he would!”

Deut 7:9 – “So realize that the Lord your God is the true God, the faithful God who keeps covenant faithfully with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations”

Ps 105:8 – “He always remembers his covenantal decree,
the promise he made to a thousand generations”

Hebrew for “thousand” - The KJV translates Strong's H505 in the following manner: thousand (500x), eleven hundred (with H3967) (3x), variant (1x), twelve hundred (with H3967) (1x).

If you use the Bible to try and specify the thousand years of Christ’s reign as a literal definite number, then you are disregarding how the word is used.

Of interest:  Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon

 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h505/kjv/wlc/0-1/

You have quoted 2 Pet 3:8 – “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand ^G5507 years, and a thousand ^G5507 years as one day.”

G5507 - ίλιοι chílioi, khil'-ee-oy; plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand:—thousand. 

Should this scripture be used to define the exact meaning of “thousand” or “day” according to the Father?  Should it be used to calculate a date for the end? 

The word is used also in Revelation nine times, including Rev 20:2,3 –

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. ² He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. ³ He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

“thousand” – “plural of uncertain affinity” 

You seem to like doing research. Perhaps you’ll consider this quote:

2Pe.3:8 KJV “Beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as 1,000 [g5507] years, and 1,000 [g5507] years as one day.”  The usage of “1,000 years” in this verse is somewhat similar to Ps.90:4.  Benson Commentary 2Pe.3:8 “A thousand years, yea, the longest time, is no more delay to the eternal God than one day is to us.”  Matthew Poole Commentary 2Pe.3:8 “By a synécdoche, 1,000 years is put for any, even the longest revolution of time.”  Bengel’s Gnomen 2Pe.3:8 “He [God] wonderfully exceeds all measure of time.”  In this verse too, “1,000 years” is figurative.

JFB Commentary Re.20:2 “A thousand implies perfection. Thousand symbolizes that the world is perfectly leavened and pervaded by the divine.”  Matthew Poole Commentary Re.20:2 “It is probable that it signifies an uncertain, indefinite time.”  Pulpit Commentary Re.20:2 “The best interpretation seems to be that this phrase expresses a quality, and does not express a period of time. ‘1,000’ signifies completeness.”  Ellicott Commentary Re.20:3 “The same applies to the duration of the imprisonment; it is not to be understood literally.”  Kenneth L. Gentry He Shall Have Dominion, p.347 “The thousand is no more literal here than that which affirms God’s ownership of the cattle on 1,000 hills (Ps.50:10).”   Anthony A. Hoekema The Bible and the Future, p.226 “The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers. The number ‘thousand’ in this passage ought not to be interpreted in a strictly literal sense.”

In the Bible, “one thousand/1,000 years” refers to a large period of time.  Interpreting the years as an approximation is even a stretch.

 https://bibletopicexpo.wordpress.com/2018/02/02/thousand-years-in-the-bible-2/

 

 

On that note, Jesus began ruling in the first century according to God’s word. (Ps 110:1,2; Luke 22:69; Acts 7:55; Rev 3:21; 1 Cor 15:25

Mark 16:19- Then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

These scriptures tell us that Jesus accomplishes God’s purpose through ruling at His right hand:

Eph 1:20 - “He exercised this power in Christ by raising him from the dead and seating him at His right hand in the heavens” 

Another translation says, “God’s power was at work in Christ”

Exod 15:6 -  “LORD, your right hand is glorious in power. LORD, your right hand shattered the enemy.”

Ps 110:1,2; Ps 17:1; Heb 8:1,2; 1 Pet 3:22

Jesus was not inactive until 1914; but actively ruling with authority and power. This symbolic “thousand years” that began when he sat down at the Father’s right hand, is mentioned as the “kingdom of the Son of His love”, or “the kingdom of His beloved Son”. (Col 1:13,14) Nowhere in the scriptures does it state that his reign is one of peace, but one of division, of judgment. (Matt 10:34-39) Can you show me where it says otherwise?  Even the Wt. picks up on that word, “judgment” and then puts a spin on it saying the “peaceful” thousand years, are the time of judgment. This isn’t true. With the belief that people will be living in a utopia, everyone will still be under the microscope during that time, way before the utopia ends and war ensues at the end of a literal thousand years.

Again, when has God’s judgment enacted on His people ever proven to be peaceful? (2 Chron 20:12; Isa 3:13-15; Ezek 7:8; Joel 3:12)  According to the word of God, it was always during their time of sinning or testing. Will JWs be tested during their entire stay in paradise?  Judgment was a time of division, between the obedient and the disobedient, the righteous and the unrighteous.  So you see, the doctrine of men have changed the meaning of scripture to support their theory which cannot be backed up by the word of God.

During Christ’s “millennial” kingdom since the first century, each anointed one either proves to be faithful in Christ, or rebellious. (2 Tim 3:1-9) Satan has asked to sift them “as wheat”. (Luke 22:31)  Christ’s “enemies” are put at his feet. It is a time of harvest of the sons of the kingdom.  (Matt 13:30)  And then, after Satan's last act of deceit against the remaining ones of the woman's seed, (Rev 12:1-4,17)  “death” will be destroyed when Armageddon is finished.  (Rev 13:1,2,5-7; 12

“For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. ²² For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when he has brought to an end all rule and all authority and power. ²⁵ For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be eliminated is death. ²⁷ For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. 1 Cor 15

This takes place when the Wild Beast of the Sea and its false prophet, Rev 13:1,2:11,12 is destroyed. (Rev 20:11-14; Dan 7:11-14; Rev 19:19-21)

The “righteous” will posses the earth at the end of Armageddon, with no possibility that unrighteousness and deceit will ever show its ugly head in the Kingdom of God. 

 

 

[BroRando]

32 minutes ago, Witness said:

The “righteous” will posses the earth at the end of Armageddon, with no possibility that unrighteousness and deceit will ever show its ugly head in the Kingdom of God.

Yep.... 

Revelation 20:6

Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

1 Corinthians 15:24

Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power

[Chioke Lin]

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I've had the same chill for the last few days.  I believe now seeing a traditional comma out of place

Dear commentor, if this is directed to me because of my bad English, I had no formal English studies. There is no need to insult someone because, English is not their primary language. This is unacceptable rudeness.

If you wish for me to stop posting, just say so.

[Chioke Lin]

1 hour ago, BroRando said:

Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

Doesn't this imply, these kings are in heaven? How about those on earth that will have the same time to receive perfection.

Your comment does indicate, your literal understanding of the 1000 years by the bible's lexicon.

Danker, Greek NT Lexicon (DAN)

[DANK] χίλιοι
χίλιοι,αι,α [Skt. assoc.] a thousand – a. of temporal periods 2 Pt 3:8; Rv 11:3; 12:6; the apocalyptic millennium 20:2-7. – b. of spatial units Rv 14:20.