Revelation 12 : 6. 1260 days. Revelation 12 : 14. a time and times and half a time. 3½ times = 3½ years, of 360 days Prophetic calender

[TrueTomHarley]

On 2/24/2022 at 4:39 PM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Um, Tom used to call me those names. Is Tom dangerous ???????????????

Once and for all, will you please get it right? I have not called you a “fool” or “stupid.” I have called you a “dodo.”

40 minutes ago, Dmitar said:

People just want to fight, and insult others

Not me.

[JW Insider]

On 2/19/2022 at 11:30 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Rev 12 : 6, mentions the woman going off into the wilderness for 1260 days.

REv 12 : 14, mentions the woman being nurished in the wilderness for a time and times and half a time. This = 3½ times.

so we divide 1260 days by 3½ which givs us, 360 days. Now that is equal to a 'Prophetic Year' 

It seems, and i didn't know this before, that prophecy is based on a 360 day year. 

This is true, and as others have pointed out, this is the basis for turning the "7 times" of Daniel 4 into 2,520 days, rather than 2,557 days (7x365.25 = 2,556.75). Of course, since we claim that nothing very notable actually happened after 2,520 days, we look to see what might have happened if we use the a "prophetic formula" found in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 to change that same number of days into years.

But, according to the Watchtower's teaching on this period, we don't stay consistent with a 360-day year. We quickly switch it up to a 365.25 day year, or full calendar year. That's because if we claimed that Daniel really meant 360 day years for the prophetic fulfillment, then we would only be able to reach from 607 BCE to about 1877 CE. Even if the Watchtower started counting from the correct date for the destruction of Jerusalem, it would only reach to about 1897.

The Watchtower actually doesn't give a good reason for switching from 360 to 365.25 when calculating the fulfillment of the prophecy, as you can see from the article that attempts to explain it. 

*** w64 12/15 p. 759 Why the Changes in World Governments Since 1914? ***
The year of the Jewish and Babylonian calendars varied in length from as low as 354 days to as high as 385 days. But in the Bible’s symbolic or prophetic “time,” or year, the number of days is fixed at 360. Seven of such years would be 7 X 360 = 2,520 days. This is corroborated by the statement in Revelation 12:6, 14, where it speaks of “a time and times and half a time” or three and one-half times, as 1,260 days. If we divide 1,260 by three and one-half (3.5), it gives us three hundred and sixty (360) days to a “time,” or year.
As to the greater length of time that these 2,520 days pictured, we find the rule of “a day for a year” in a prophecy of Ezekiel, who prophesied contemporaneously with Daniel and who also had the matter of “bands” connected with his prophecy. Another prophecy by Daniel with respect to the first coming of the Messiah, namely, the prophecy of the “seventy weeks,” is understood by Bible scholars to apply the same rule.—Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 9:24, 25. See also Numbers 14:34, which deals with a period of punishment or disfavor.
Therefore, the 2,520 days of the “seven times” would be 2,520 years in fulfillment. These years, in their fulfillment, would not be merely 360 days each, but full calendar years as we count them. For we must remember that the variation of the Jewish calendar was to adjust the lunar year to harmonize with the solar year. It could be termed a “soli-lunar” or “bound lunar” year. Days, or months, were inserted at intervals to make up the difference of approximately eleven days between the lunar and the solar year. By this means the seasons always fell in their proper place in the calendar. So their calendar would be almost exactly in line with the currently used Gregorian calendar. So the 2,520 years are to be counted as solar years.

On 2/19/2022 at 11:30 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

It also seems that Moses used a 360 day calender. 

I don't think that's true. (It's possible though.)

The method of counting the number of days from one month to another would sometimes be rounded off to 30, even though half the Hebrew months contained 29 days. It was easier to count a very close estimate this way rather than use the true average of a Hebrew month which was 29.5 days. There are still legacy financial systems today that use this 30 day month estimation for calculations of bank interest and "time-value" of money. That's why Microsoft added the 360-day year formula to Microsoft Excel.

The Babylonians also built counting systems on multiples of 30 and 60, even though they were well aware of the need to keep adjusting their years between 354 days and 384 days to keep an average of 365. The Jews were aware of this too, which is why the apocryphal book of Enoch made so much of the fact that he lived to be 365, and Enoch gets the vision in this book about creating an ideal calendar based on 360, but with an extra day added to each of 4 "seasons" to bring a calendar close to 365.  Although priestly Jews may have tried to keep an "ideal" astronomical calendar to help them know when intercalary months should be added, the actual practical calendar in use by the Jewish people always made use of the day of the month., based on watching for certain phases of the moon.

On 2/19/2022 at 11:30 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

The Egyptions and possibly the Romans used 360 day calenders too. And of course Moses was educated by the Egyptions. 

This is true enough. But the Egyptians also knew that the real year contained 365.25 days. So they had a 5 day holiday every year, but didn't add a leap day every four years as we do for our modern calendar. You probably read things like this when you looked it up: https://www.infoplease.com/calendars/history/history-egyptian-calendar

About 4000 B.C. they added five extra days at the end of every year to bring it more into line with the solar year.¹ These five days became a festival because it was thought to be unlucky to work during that time.

The Egyptians had calculated that the solar year was actually closer to 365¹/4 days, but instead of having a single leap day every four years to account for the fractional day (the way we do now), they let the one-quarter day accumulate. ...

In addition to the civic calendar, the Egyptians also had a religious calendar that was based on the 29¹/2-day lunar cycle and was more closely linked with agricultural cycles and the movements of the stars.

On 2/19/2022 at 11:30 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

So I related this 3½ times from Rev 12 : 14, as being 3½ years.  Then I though, Jesus' ministry was also 3½ years long.

There are a couple more 3.5 year periods that may have been seen in the first Christian century. There is nothing that definitively states that Jesus ministry was exactly 3.5 years. John evidently highlights a single year of Jesus' ministry. It's assumed to be 3.5 years as a fulfillment of Daniel's 70-weeks prophecy. There is also a potential 3.5 year period between the time of Jesus death/resurrection and the general opening up of the preaching work to the Gentiles. And there is another one possible from the time when Roman armies first encroached upon Jerusalem in 66 CE reaching up to the final destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple in 70 CE. Some Bible commentators try to make a lot out of this period, too, in discussing the meaning of Revelation.

Revelation may have also been making an allusion to a well known and necessary lesson about how earnest prayer gave the power to overcome 3.5 years of tribulation in Israel:

(James 5:17) ¹⁷ E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet when he prayed earnestly for it not to rain, it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

 

On 2/19/2022 at 11:30 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Now I'm wondering exactly what calender the apostles used. Was it a 360 day calender ? 

Good question. The Jews would likely have continued using the standard Hebrew calendar that switched between 12-month years and 13-month years so that it would average 365.25 over time. They had been using this since Babylonian times or before, and Hillel says they continued to use this method even a couple hundred years after the first century.

[Dmitar]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Not me.

I meant just with me, right @TrueTomHarley. You people just want to insult, criticize, and fight with me. Didn't you just defend @Arauna bullying? I don't see you being critical with that former Jehovah's Witness @Pudgy as you are with me.

In general, you Jehovah’s Witnesses here, really don't behave like that with former Jehovah's Witnesses, now do you. Yeah, once in a while when, @Patiently waiting for Truth gets under your skin, you will insult him, but not directly "rebuking" him like you do with me. Certainly you don't ask the owner to ban @Pudgy like you do with me, even though he is FAR WORSE than me. But, you guys need to stick together, I get that, Christian.

So, your comment is none conforming.

[Arauna]

 

2 hours ago, Dmitar said:

insult, criticize, and fight with me.

Please stop playing the victim. You bully and insult and pick fights an then accuse and play victim..... what a playbook!  

[TrueTomHarley]

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

I meant just with me, right @TrueTomHarley. You people just want to insult, criticize, and fight with me. Didn't you just defend @Arauna bullying? I don't see you being critical with that former,,,

I wasn’t thinking about you at all when I made that remark. I meant only that I try not to argue or insult others.

5 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Yeah, once in a while when, @Patiently waiting for Truth gets under your skin, you will insult him

Okay, okay, so you’ve got me there. Nobody has infinite patience. But even then it is only with the “dodo” word.

[Pudgy]

After the assassination of the American Ambassador to Benghazi, Libya ….. Hillary Clinton, as Secretary of State under Obama, was highly insulted when she demanded transportation appropriate for her, and they brought her a broom.

[Pudgy]

From downstairs, my wife heard the house shake because upstairs I had fallen onto my knees. She yelled up “Are you Ok?  Are you OK?”.

Stunned, grimacing, and still on the floor, as she ran up the stairs to check, I replied “I’m OK, I’m OK …. I just tripped over something, and landed on my knees, taking the skin off.”

She asked “What did you trip over, and why are you laughing?”

I showed her Dmitar’s sentence on my iPhone “So, your comment is non conforming.”.

Hahahaha

…. still funny.

 

[Pudgy]

…. Happened about 15 minutes ago ….

[Dmitar]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Okay, okay, so you’ve got me there. Nobody has infinite patience. But even then it is only with the “dodo” word.

Glad you admit the difference between "dodo" and asking to have someone banned.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I wasn’t thinking about you at all when I made that remark. I meant only that I try not to argue or insult others.

When it comes to banning me, you always have something to say in defense of others, now you what to turn it around, please! 

You know exactly what I'm talking about. That woeful fool @Pudgy is as bad as they come, yet NOT ONCE have you suggested for him to be banned. Also, you haven't argued for@Patiently waiting for Truth to be banned, either. Why, because I "refuse" to be part of apostasy, here?

[Pudgy]

Dmitar:

What does the Bible say about calling someone a (woeful) fool?

(Hint: Matthew 5:22.)

[TrueTomHarley]

6 hours ago, Dmitar said:

Glad you admit the difference between "dodo" and asking to have someone banned.

When it comes to banning me, you always have something to say in defense of others, now you what to turn it around, please! 

You know exactly what I'm talking about. That woeful fool @Pudgy is as bad as they come, yet NOT ONCE have you suggested for him to be banned. Also, you haven't argued for@Patiently waiting for Truth to be banned, either. Why, because I "refuse" to be part of apostasy, here?

The entire forum could be banned as far as I am concerned. A good many players here could most charitably be described as ‘real pieces of work.’ That doesn’t mean I have ever sought to ban anyone.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

On 2/26/2022 at 6:43 PM, TrueTomHarley said:

Once and for all, will you please get it right? I have not called you a “fool” or “stupid.” I have called you a “dodo.”

dodo was probably the word you finally settled for but I'm sure there were others prior to that.