How a Christmas song would lead me to believe that our 1914 teaching must be right after all.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

It's not that religion per say will be destroyed, but organized religion will be.

Remember, there was a time when Rutherford hated even the term "religion" because by it he meant "organized" religion. It wasn't until Covington started arguing with him that they needed to use the term religion in order to get legal recognition in other countries that he softened a bit. In the booklet that Covington wrote, even as late as 1950, he had to explain to other Witnesses why it was going to be OK to use the term religion. Reminds me a bit of how L. Ron Hubbard also distanced himself from religion until his lawyers realized the tax trouble they were in. They even put a cross like symbol on their buildings now. Hubbard would be rolling over on his planet.

But, of course, Rutherford made us more organized than ever from a hierarchical top-down perspective. Can't hardly see how we'd function without such a high level of organization, with so many millions of us, so much coordinated activity, so many publications, so many updates (even new songs before the next songbook is printed), etc.

[Anna]

41 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Can't hardly see how we'd function without such a high level of organization, with so many millions of us, so much coordinated activity, so many publications, so many updates (even new songs before the next songbook is printed), etc.

I can't see it either. In fact I would think it was impossible to accomplish any mission without organization. Even those who say they are not organized actually are. It's "organized religion" that is a dirty word for some, and probably not for the word "organized"  but for the word "religion" associated with it. "Organized religion" has given itself such a bad name. I am curious to see how the documentary develops (only seen the first episode) since their aim is to accomplish something without organization....

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

That's what Doug Coe in the documentary was insinuating. He also compared Jesus to Lenin, Hitler and Bin Laden, as examples of leaders who change the world through the strength of the covenants they had forged with their 'brothers'.

And because he said this, you can erase Jesus' words in John 4 as well.  

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I don't think I would want to agree with any of his sentiments .

 

Then why do you appear to agree with what was said in the show?

@Anna - The journalist whose story this is, overhears Doug Coe, one of the leaders of the Family, saying to another member that "putting labels on religions such as "Muslim", "Christian" gets in the way of your prayers to Jesus .....organized religion detracts from Jesus...we've got to take Jesus out of the religious wrapping". This is IT! It's not that religion per say will be destroyed, but organized religion will be. One of the episodes is called One World Order. Arauna would be proud of me.

52 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Can't hardly see how we'd function without such a high level of organization, with so many millions of us, so much coordinated activity, so many publications, so many updates (even new songs before the next songbook is printed), etc.

And is the Holy Spirit behind this visible force?  Is it behind any other religious organization's productivity?  Is the Wt. better than any other?  Yes, it functions on a sterile level of organization, and not on love for truth. You, of all JWs here, know this.   What good is it, to produce magazines full of teachings that could change in a few months?  And people are disfellowshipped for rejecting doctrine that ends up being changed.  

Beware of "organization.” It is wholly unnecessary. The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others' consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you understand God’s Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day. (The Watchtower, September 15, 1895)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pudgy]

You know, Witness, in the United States now, we have an Orwellian “Ministry of Truth” that protects all “woke” and liberal progressive people from unapproved conversation.

Unless you are fully “woke”, a big fan of Planned Parenthood and BLM, unresisted Democrat Organizations, and LGBTQWXYZ, and can prove it, you WILL BE PROSECUTED.

The fact that you have not fled from the PRC (Peoples’ Republic of California) identifies you as one of the approved protectorate, but that could change in an instant.

[Witness]

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

You know, Witness, in the United States now, we have an Orwellian “Ministry of Truth” that protects all “woke” and liberal progressive people from unapproved conversation.

Unless you are fully “woke”, a big fan of Planned Parenthood and BLM, unresisted Democrat Organizations, and LGBTQWXYZ, and can prove it, you WILL BE PROSECUTED.

The fact that you have not fled from the PRC (Peoples’ Republic of California) identifies you as one of the approved protectorate, but that could change in an instant.

Things have changed "in an instant".  BLM.  It was an adjustment to understand that everyone else now knows this term as "Black Lives Matter".  That's perfectly fine with me.  But I still see those letters as representing public land that I can hike on.  I suppose now I am a target to be prosecuted.  

[Pudgy]

Those who say “…Such things could never happen in America …”, perhaps forget that recently we were fined outrageous amounts of money for NOT buying Government health insurance.

[Anna]

5 hours ago, Witness said:

Then why do you appear to agree with what was said in the show?

Just because I expressed that what he said may fulfill the prophecy regarding Governments turning on organized religion doesn't mean I agree with his sentiments about Jesus, or any of his methods that him and his high profile buddies may employ to achieve their goals.  You on the other hand praise him and  say that he "got it" even though in reality he actually didn't "get it".

[JW Insider]

15 hours ago, Thinking said:

But Russell himself never claimed to be the one  and only faithful and discreet slave…do you agree with that.

No, I don't agree with that. The December 1, 1916 Watchtower says this with respect to the belief already held by thousands:

"that he filled the office of 'that faithful and wise servant' and that his great work was giving to the household of faith meat in due season. His modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming this title, but he admitted as much in private conversation." 

So, was the Watchtower telling the truth when it said that Russell had admitted that he filled the office of that faithful and wise servant?

(Proverbs 27:2)  Let someone else praise you, and not your own mouth; Others, and not your own lips.

I think it's pretty easy to see that Russell had "staked the claim" to being the 'faithful and wise servant' by allowing others to make the claim publicly. This would start with his wife making the claim for him, beginning in 1895. Until then, Russell had taught that it was all Christians in the entire household of faith who needed to follow the example of such a faithful servant. But then in 1896, he said he was now changing that belief because the Scriptures gave him no choice. It was now no longer applied to individuals (plural), but just ONE individual man who would be providing spiritual food at the proper time ("meat in due season"). But notice that he added that he could not let modesty get in the way of making this doctrinal change.

"it would be wrong to allow modesty or any other consideration, good or bad, to warp our judgment in the exposition of [Matthew 24:45] . . . to which proposition we agree." -- March 1, 1896 Watch Tower

This explains why Russell claimed in the April 15, 1904 Watch Tower that the Lord would

"specially use one member of his church as the channel or instrument through which he would send the appropriate messages, spiritual nourishment appropriate at that time."

In 1906, Russell would claim that:

"the truths I present, as God's mouthpiece . . . were ... revealed . . . especially since 1870 and particularly since 1880. . . . and if I did not speak, and no other agent could be found, the very stones would cry out." -- July 15, 1906 Watch Tower

In 1911, Russell spoke at the Convention, where other speakers would say things like the following, and which the Watch Tower Society published in the 1911 Convention Report.

"... the Lord . . . has placed Pastor Russell in charge of the work. . . . We are glad therefore to recognize him as 'that servant,' spoken by the Lord . . . doing ... the work the Lord appointed him to do.

Russell also published letters in multiple issues of the Watch Tower which addressed him as "that Servant" and acknowledged that he was the one faithful servant providing "meat in due season" for the household of faith.

[Thinking]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

19 hours ago, Thinking said:

But Russell himself never claimed to be the one  and only faithful and discreet slave…do you agree with that.

No, I don't agree with that. The December 1, 1916 Watchtower says this with respect to the belief already held by thousands:

"that he filled the office of 'that faithful and wise servant' and that his great work was giving to the household of faith meat in due season. His modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming this title, but he admitted as much in private conversation." 

So, was the Watchtower telling the truth when it said that Russell had admitted that he filled the office of that faithful and wise servant?

 

I think he was dead when that was written….he cannot be blamed for what was written after his death……from what I’ve read he admitted others applied that term to him personally ..I shall try to find it,

On his gravestone they also wrote and gave him a certain title which he had nothing to do with ….was the WT lying…not sure?…..again going from what I have read he had hoped he had acted in an approved manner….and acknowledged others thought him to be such.

And just WHO in the watchtower claimed he said that …..Rutherford????

And even if he did….so what…thank the man for devoting his life as he came out of BTG…thank him for straightening out hellfire and standing strong and fighting against the trinitarian God….Thank him for being fearless in traveling the world and explaining about the kingdom….and the resurrection hope on the earth….
You know what you know because of one’s like him …instead of finding fault…get on your knees with some humility and Thank God Russell found him,,…sheesh talk about finding fault with a brother…..

I often wonder about that with you….why I ask myself…you always seem to sow seeds of doubt about Russell…is it the date thing???

I don’t doubt he did a lot of wrong…misunderstood heaps of things…and JWI..I will say this…you so quickly condemn the man….there is nothing humble about you in doing it.

 

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“God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached,” 1973, p. 345-47
“The Slave who lived to see the sign”

“From this it is clearly seen that the editor and publisher of Zion’s Watch Tower disavowed any claim to being individually, in his person, that “faithful and wise servant.” He never did claim to be such,” (“God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached,” 1973, p. 346).

Comment:  This contradicts Watchtower December 1, 1919, p. 357 where the watchtower states Russell did in fact claim to be the Faithful and Discreet slave.  “Thousands of the readers of Pastor Russell’s writings believe that he filled the office of ‘that faithful and wise servant,’ and that his great work was giving to the household of faith meat in due season. His modesty and humility precluded him from openly claiming this title, but he admitted as much in private conversation,” (Watchtower, Dec. 1, 1919, p. 357).

 

The best advise I can give someone concerning Russell is get his writings and books etc and read them yourselves…also there are Facebook pages often clearing up certain things he was supposed to say and do…

[TrueTomHarley]

16 hours ago, Anna said:

It was an interesting experiment. It made me realize that rather than the actual content, which I merely skimmed over like Tom, I was more concerned with the reputation or status of the person who wrote it.

Oh, I stopped worrying about that ages ago.  

[TrueTomHarley]

19 hours ago, Pudgy said:

… I sympathize with you, but being a cartoon dog, My dog dish somehow cleans itself.

The BEST THING about my spanking new dishwasher is that it has just a common basket for silverware. It does NOT have those pissy separators that made loading the machine an all-afternoon job, and my wife is so disappointed on that account.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

devoting his life as he came out of BTG…thank him for straightening out hellfire and standing strong and fighting against the trinitarian God….Thank him for being fearless in traveling the world and explaining about the kingdom….and the resurrection hope on the earth….

I think for these very reasons he fits the description of someone supplying food at the proper time. For these reasons I wouldn't blame anyone at that time thinking he was the slave, and I wouldn't blame Russel for thinking that about himself either. 

I don’t know why we today say he wasn't the slave. Well actually I do...because it wouldn't fit our overall picture regarding 1919 when we say the slave was appointed, because he was dead by then....

Added:  Acording to this book; God’s Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached,” (1973, p. 345-47
“The Slave who lived to see the sign”) the slave was appointed in 33 CE. This is what we used to teach, that it was all of the annointed since that time. So since Russel was the only one who seemed to start uncovering Bible truths in the 19th century, then it's easy to see him taking up that role. Of course now we say "Russel and his associates" which makes the slave composite, not one individual.