Posts moved from a recent topic about a J.F.Rutherford book

[Thinking]

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I don’t see any mention of him there. 

Yeah, I suppose you could get worked up over certain things. But to the point of missing the big picture? When he was baptized “into Christ” did he thereafter become brother to the 95% of Christians who equate Jesus with God?

This statement is telling to me: “I myself was sure that the Branch would not dare to do anything.” Isn’t there such a thing as overestimating your own importance? 

Recently Elon Musk proposed to buy Twitter. “I’m sure the left wouldn’t dare do anything,” he said.

 

 

That’s the key to all of this……step back and look at the big picture…and take the time and relentless prayer to do that……

[Thinking]

2 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

That’s just it. I didn’t keep track of who. Nobody I knew personally. He expressed nothing toward me but good will. It was some form of media communication, the exact form I forget.

Yes if only we could keep track of who said this and that….not to worry….

[Anna]

5 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Hmm! How does someone that shouldn't have full access to the Watchtower Library archive get access if that person is not an Elder?

Are you referring to the link I posted, or to something else?

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If only all of Walter’s writings were of this caliber. I would unblock him in an instant.

Not that Walter will care about my opinion, but I believe his input has always been valuable when it comes to the subject of Bible Student history. If you'll unblock him, at least for this topic, you'll see a bit of antagonism here and there toward Schulz, Persson, Penton, etc. But I expect you will also see a lot of good points made, assuming you have more than a "xero" interest in the topic, of course.

[TrueTomHarley]

39 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Not that Walter will care about my opinion, but I believe his input has always been valuable when it comes to the subject of Bible Student history. If you'll unblock him, at least for this topic, you'll see a bit of antagonism here and there toward Schulz, Persson, Penton, etc. But I expect you will also see a lot of good points made, assuming you have more than a "xero" interest in the topic, of course.

He doesn’t like Shultz? Who could not like Shultz?

Shultz recently told me that in his ‘scholar group’ he pointedly told off Rolf and it was apparently heated enough that he thought one or the other of them might be kicked off, and that he didn’t care if it was him, even though Rolf was a one-person minority.

He had previously tweeted of a certain “moron” in his group. I observed that every group was a moron and inquired if it was in connection to a certain dastardly deed where Rolf had played his hand. It was.

I have floated the possibility with another of that group that it might be a fine thing to add me to it, even allowing that I am so not much a scholar as a seedpicker—peck a seed here and poop it out there, just like they said of Paul.

So far no one has taken the bait.

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He doesn’t like Shultz? Who could not like Shultz?

Shultz recently told me that in his ‘scholar group’ he pointedly told off Rolf and it was apparently heated enough that he thought one or the other of them might be kicked off, and that he didn’t care if it was him, even though Rolf was a one-person minority.

He had previously tweeted of a certain “moron” in his group. I observed that every group was a moron and inquired if it was in connection to a certain dastardly deed where Rolf had played his hand. It was.

I have floated the possibility with another of that group that it might be a fine thing to add me to it, even allowing that I am so not much a scholar as a seedpicker—peck a seed here and poop it out there, just like they said of Paul.

So far no one has taken the bait.

Wow that group sounds terrific…..I like Shultz tho I have not read of him much lately….I still have a book of his here to read….saving it for when and if the internet goes down…..I really hope those scholars are humble enough to let a little pooping seed picker in amongst them…. 

[TrueTomHarley]

10 hours ago, Thinking said:

I really hope those scholars are humble enough to let a little pooping seed picker in amongst them…. 

They have their own standards. It’s not so much humility as it is meeting their standards. Their club consists of published authors and/or scholars with advanced degrees.. I can spin a good story, self publish with typos, shift the gem to see things from a different perspective, but am not really in their league. There has been someone saying he will try to gain me admittance but I’m not holding my breath. If I did gain admittance I am not sure I would participate much. I’m not sure my advocate has the stature to recommend a new member anyway. He talks a good game.

I’m not overly impressed with ‘scholars’ anyway. It’s not the ‘greater gift.’ It’s a fine addition if you have the greater gift down pat but comes across as a little pretentious if you don’t. The twelve were not scholars. Paul (who was) said a Christian should be “a workman [not a professional] with nothing to be ashamed of,” thus choosing his words to favor the non-scholars. God arranged that his son should be born in the Bethehem Manger, not the Jerusalem Hyatt. He could have chosen the latter; he knows a lot of people. But he didn’t.

I don’t think these humble roots are embarrassing shortcomings to pull oneself up by one’s bootstraps from, which is how they are usually presented. I think they are permanent indications of the ones who God chooses. As soon as people fancy themselves ‘scholars’ they are inclined to get too big for their pants. They start to think, as did Rud, “The Branch wouldn’t dare mess with me!” In time they bluster around like Alan F, calling anyone who disagrees a ignoramus.

Have the greater gifts down pat and scholarship is fine. You need scholarship. I get that. But the guys that are topheavy with it wear me out.

10 hours ago, Thinking said:

I like Shultz tho I have not read of him much lately….I still have a book of his here to read….saving it for when and if the internet goes down…

I have one of his too. So far as I am aware he does have the greater gifts down pat. He writes Bethel in connection to his research and to a reasonable degree they cooperate. As he is reaching advanced years with poor health he donates rare literature to them. I’m glad he does the work he does. Somebody has to. I’m glad it is him. But I would never have the patience to put something like that together.

They sent a copy of their work to Bethel, to no comment, and his non-Witness niece speculated that Bethel “is incurious as to its own beginnings.” By and large I think that is true. They don’t look behind too much. They look forward.

[Pudgy]

On 5/20/2022 at 8:41 PM, Thinking said:

This is just plain dumb pudgy…grow up…some things are just not decent to joke about….

(Referring to my previously posted clown on the window ledge cartoon, attributed by symbols within the frame)  According to JWI, no one got hurt, no one jumped.

Meanwhile, while that climbing adventure I made fun of what? … a hundred years ago?, ( too soon?), assuming you know what a slide whistle is, and cartoon falling sound effects sound like … the cartoon is still funny!  … and matches the topic under discussion. (At least in my fake humble opinion.)

Macabe humor is funny to some, and to others, not. As the late comedian (2008) George Carlin used to say about the joys of flight ……

 

Now THAT’S FUNNY!

[Pudgy]

NOTICE: No humans were hurt in the telling of that bird joke.

If you were offended, please wear goggles!

[Pudgy]

 

 

I agree with Thinking 100%.
Well …. The first paragraph….. not the second paragraph.

I know Bethel is totally hosed, and know at least all the things Thinking knows about the specifics … perhaps even more. I knew these things 40 years ago, when my children were born at 3 year intervals.

Knowing all these things, I recognized that Jehovah’s Witnesses are probably the best bet mankind has to serve God.

Yeah, “new light” is often a joke, and embarrassing to see taught, but ALL THE OTHERS ARE WORSE.

I explained all this to my 3 children in detail when they were young … and encouraged them to full theocratic activity  …. Bethel, pioneering, overseas work … the list is extensive …. anyway!  
 

Of COURSE they viewed me as a rebellious apostate for giving them all that background information, but each of their lives has turned out demonstratively better than my own.

I suppose that is the wish of every parent.

Yeah … Bethel is a nut house, run by nuts … but many men join the Marines, knowing all there is that is wrong with it before they sign up …. and do it anyway!

Apparently Jehovah puts up with a lot of crap about theology, caring more about obedience and a pure heart, than   getting details entirely correct.

I think Jesus said something about that when some group was teaching “Jesus”, and it was not the Apostles, and Jesus said (paraphrased), “leave them alone, those that are not against us are for us …”, or something like that.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

3 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

“Many died of old age at Bethel but some died younger.

as though that doesn’t happen anywhere else.

3 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Richard was never quite the same after his wife died.

as though everyone else celebrates when their wife dies.

3 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Aside from [Shultz’s] version to be repetitive, he’s partner is NOT a Witness, 

Whatever her influence once was, she’s been dead for several years. Her death preceded the release of Volume II. As to parameters, I’m not versed enough in the history to know what they might be.

In the 70s some touring Bethel brother presented a few clips from the PhotoDrama of creation at the Blue Cross Arena [then the Rochester War Memorial]. I was struck by how it appeared to be his own project and that otherwise Bethel would have let the film disintegrate through neglect. Not that anyone was ashamed of it. It was just that they were forward looking and didn’t do much to preserve history. The tone of his remarks was that he had to sort through the basement, or the attic, to assemble what he had, which was not in good shape and soon would have vanished.

The release of the Proclaimers book seemed to signal a shift from neglect of the past to cherishing ‘our spiritual heritage.’ Nothing wrong with that, in my view. It was as though, after assembling the yearbook material for 74 and 75 (Germany and US) it occurred to the brothers, seemingly for the first time, that if they didn’t start preserving records of the past it would soon be lost forever.

Maybe that’s why Rud can find an audience for his expensive book (I should take lessons from him in commanding a price); there’s a relative dearth of official historical material. It’s not my field of interest, but I recognize everyone wants to tell their own story and relate their own ‘expertise.’ As for me, I say, ‘If you have to go back 100 years to dig up dirt, there can’t be too much dirt to dig.’ Alas, they have modern-day allies, who endeavor to dig it up —some would say ‘concoct’—in the present too.

[JW Insider]

7 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

That however has not stopped apostates from giving the Bethel House a bad review. Case in point. A book authored by Keith Casarona, 2019.

I think that part of the problem is that apostates are driven by a variety of motivations, and there is therefore a wide range of quality in their work. I have never heard of this book by Casarona, but from what you have shared, it seems to be the kind of book you could thumb through very quickly and reject as one of those that grasps at straws and just presents anything negative without doing much research, merely copying the worst claims he has heard about.

For example, Richard Wheelock did not jump from a third floor factory window as so many people think. He jumped from a window in the Towers Hotel. He had been suffering from depression from many years before this happened. He had even threatened suicide going as far back as the time when his fiance, Audrey Mock, left him to marry Brother Knorr.

It's stupid to blame the Society directly for factory accidents. These are usually human error. There are probably only a very few cases where legal liability might have reached "to the top." But it would be rare to get credible public knowledge of such events, because it would be rare for the family of a Bethelite to make a case against the entire Watchtower Society for a wrongful death. I can't imagine my own parents even thinking of such a thing if anything had happened to me there.

Yes, there were suicides even when I was there, but only two, I think. The numbers of Bethelites were greatly increased in the 1970s and there was a thought going around that congregation elders were purposely encouraging Bethel service to young brothers whom they termed "damaged goods." They thought that the spirituality at Bethel would fix them. In some cases it was evidently mental issues stemming from sexual abuse catching up to them. And we'll never really know what it was in this lifetime.

7 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

Why did this person have little to no faith in the resurrection?

It appears that those were your words, not Casarona's. If so, I don't think it's fair to try to judge the faith of someone who suffers from deep bouts of depression. For all we know it was confident faith in the resurrection that motivated his suicide.

7 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

That however has not stopped apostates from giving the Bethel House a bad review.

I do think, of course, that some ex-JWs, non-JWs, and apostates are definitely out to give Bethel, or the Watchtower Society, a bad review. But no matter their motive, I think we also need to look at the quality of their research. I remember when Jim Penton wrote a book about the history of the persecution of Witnesses in Canada. It was considered an excellent book and was available in the Bethel Library. Penton was considered an excellent historian and of course there was pride in that a professor or PhD had written such a good book. The Watchtower even said:

*** w77 1/1 p. 11 Insight on the News ***
“A Debt of Gratitude”
● Writing in the Toronto “Star” of October 4, 1976, Stuart Shaw mentions the book “Jehovah’s Witnesses in Canada: Champions of Freedom of Speech and Worship,” by James Penton, associate professor of history at the University of Lethbridge. Shaw explains that it discusses the intense persecution of the Witnesses in that country from 1939 to 1956, “first at the instance of the federal government and then at that of the government of Quebec.” . . .  Referring to the recent book, however, and shedding some light on the underlying cause, Shaw comments: “Penton argues convincingly, citing official correspondence and documents of the period, that the real reason was entirely different. The King government was under heavy clerical pressure—from the Roman Catholic Church in particular, but also from some Protestant clergymen—to suppress these ‘heretics.’”

Of course, when Penton later criticized certain aspects of the organization, he was disfellowshipped, and suddenly his books, even if they were better researched, were no longer argued convincingly, and he had somehow turned into a sloppy historian. 

I think that motivations and biases can be important to understand, but mostly it's about the quality of research and presentation of evidence. And sometimes we might have to ignore some conclusions a researcher might draw from the evidence, but still find the presentation of evidence itself valuable. 

Also, if no one finds anything specifically wrong with a book or research, or makes no attempt to counter the evidence, then it is probable that they are just complaining about the person BECAUSE the evidence itself is too strong to deal with.