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Armageddon comes in two phases...


BroRando

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We agree on one important thing Pudgy - the cancel culture is sooooo stupid.  It comes from a pretense of false righteousness - when people think they have the moral high ground. They exhibit a fake piety and sometimes publically.

Humans do NOT have the moral high ground - only Jehovah's opinion on any moral issue  is the one that matters. We are all absolutely equal under God - so we will be in unity and love if we agree on Jehovah's standards.  The alternate way, yes they can be considered and even  debated to some extent....... but it will be flawed and does not lead to true righteousness. 

Jehovah allows us to evaluate options - righteous and unrighteous ones..... and hopes that we choose His moral way when the choice-time comes.

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More than enough scriptures were used at the convention.  I am not a teacher or a debater on this forum. I give logical opinions - that is it. You can take up some of the thoughts which are in li

Ok, I referred to our recent 3- day convention which you are not taking into consideration. . My language was not perfect, I agree, just as yours does not properly define literal and spiritual events.

I dunno. In that case we’d all be disciples of you-know-who, who quotes scriptures by the truckload but they never apply.

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4 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

unfortunatly for aruna ,her postion lacks substance as she has failed to quote one scripture to support the debate

as in the case of bre rando there are mulitple scriptures to read

just based on that alone bro rando has a much more convincing position

I dunno. In that case we’d all be disciples of you-know-who, who quotes scriptures by the truckload but they never apply.

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5 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

n lacks substance as she has failed to quote one scripture to support the debate

More than enough scriptures were used at the convention.  I am not a teacher or a debater on this forum. I give logical opinions - that is it.

You can take up some of the thoughts which are in line with the scriptures you already know - or discard them.  I expect people on here to know most of the basic scriptures.

I have in the past taken the time to look up the scriptures and people just ignore them and go on presenting their own ideas. 

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2 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

this makes sense, birth pains are also a timed event,with no choice at that TIME to escape such birth pains ,and it is reasonable to say that because you cannot get away from having such a thing [the birth pains illustration]that there would be not need to hold out repentance to mankind at that Time because escape from the events already planned is impossible ,all choices mankind has made decide where we stand then.its a bit like when an execution is planned and the guilty is on the gallows awaiting the rope ,no one is going to offer that one the chance to repent and just walk away from the planned event ,i.e their own neck snapping to the joy of the watching crowd [angels and repentant ones]

as for the wicked dying off as a gradual event ,and as the wicked far out number the rightous then you just have to look at the numbers

https://www.un.org/en/un-chronicle/global-population-will-soon-reach-8-billion-then-what

Since the Last Days of 1914 are in reference to Satan's System of things... then the Birth Pains represent a New System of things being ushered in.  Those on the outside will not be able to escape the destruction.  

The period of time leading up to the end of the system of things, or state of affairs, dominated by Satan. It runs concurrently with Christ’s presence. Under the direction of Jesus, angels will “separate the wicked from among the righteous” and destroy them. (Mt 13:40-42, 49) Jesus’ disciples were interested in the timing of that “conclusion.” (Mt 24:3) Before his return to heaven, he promised his followers that he would be with them until that time.—Mt 28:20.

Armageddon is spiritual and commences when Jesus and angels will “separate the wicked from among the righteous” and destroy them. (Mt 13:40-4249)

It took Jesus a period of 40 years to remove unfaithful Israel from the living and lay them in the dust and during this time, they were well fed and their clothes did not even wear out. Yet, they did not know that they were being destroyed. "Neither be murmurers, as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer." (1 Cor 10:10)

Now after the 1,000 years, the scriptures state, "Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Maʹgog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.  And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them." (Rev 20:7-9)

Now that's LITERAL. The same ones that think Armageddon is Literal and flesh will fall off the bone and the wicked will simply melt away in a literal fire will be claiming Jehovah's Day is delaying. But such ones are in danger of being destroyed also. For them, they have "No Faith".

‘But my righteous one will live by reason of faith,’ and, ‘if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.’” (Hebrews 10:36-38) If Armageddon is literal from the start, then faith would not be needed to be exercised.  

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42 minutes ago, Peter Carroll said:

Have we seen an increase in “pestilences” and “food shortages” since 1914, as Jesus Christ foretold as part of the visible “sign” of his second presence? (Luke 21:11)

Yes, interesting. Let's view this scripture. Many claim this is LITERAL.  If that was true, then why did Jesus state, "“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.  Look! I have forewarned you.   Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.  For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the Presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:23-27)

The Second Presence of Christ is SPIRITUAL.  That's why Jesus stated, "the sign of his Presence".  The sign given in Matthew is also given in the Book of Revelation with the Four Horsemen.  It's SPIRITUAL. Why?  THERE ARE NO HORSES IN HEAVEN...

However, if a person really wants to dive into the Deeper things of JEHOVAH, the Second Presence of Christ comes in 3 Phases. The third and final phase is upon us as the Last Days come to their end. It's all about timing. We are quickly approaching the Revelation Phase when the wicked perceive the death they are dying is a permanent one. 

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8 hours ago, BroRando said:

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 

The EVENT (the crowning of Christ) is literal but it takes place in the spiritual realm - in the realm where angels have spiritual bodies.  Jesus was crowned in heaven but has a spiritual body. Jehovah has a spiritual body and spoke to Satan in heaven about Job.  These were real (literal)  events!  Not symbolic events - they were literal events happening in earthly time - in the heavenly realm where Jehovah and the angels have spiritual bodies!

The earthly time of Job was just before Moses came to Oz.... so we can place these literal events in a earthly time frame.  (There is no physical time in heaven).

You see - I am sensitive about the literal and symbolic use of words regarding this.  I come from a country which has a religion which believes that the death of Christ was not a literal event but was symbolic.  They believe that Christs rulership, appointment as king etc. are all symbolic events and not literal events in the spiritual realm.

If Jehovah does the trouble to give us a scene from his heavenly realm and shows how Jesus comes up to the ancient of days to receive the crown it means that this "real or literal"  event really happened and is described in terms which humans can  understand.

 

9 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

opinions will never win the day or offer hope to anyone ,jesus never offered  his an opinion on anything

I do not set myself up as a teacher or a debater here - we have the slave to teach JWs and JWs should be able to discern right from wrong.  But false prophets can come on here and use tons of scriptures and teach "almost" the truth but not the truth.

We all know that Jesus is not coming back with a physical body - Armageddon will be fought by Jesus and his angels who come from the heavenly realm and have spiritual bodies.  This does not make Armageddon a spiritual event because we will se literal dead bodies around. 

 

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10 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

By 1889, Jehovah’s anointed ones, as 19th-century light bearers, had already received correction on the matter of Christ’s return. In Volume 2 of Studies in the Scriptures, pages 158 to 161, Charles T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, wrote: “Parousia . . . signifies presence, and should never be translated coming, as in the common English Bible . . . The ‘Emphatic Diaglott,’ a very valuable translation of the New Testament, renders parousia properly, presence . . . , not that of coming, as being on the way, but presence, as after arrival [Jesus] says, ‘As the days of Noah, so shall also the parousia [presence] of the Son of man be.’ Notice, that the comparison is not between the coming of Noah and the coming of our Lord . . . The contrast, then, is between the time of the presence of Noah among the people ‘before the flood,’ and the time of the presence of Christ in the world, at his second advent, ‘before the fire’—the extreme trouble of the Day of the Lord [Jehovah] with which this age ends.”—Matthew 24:37.

both noah and lot in differant times set up the pattern of the way things would develop ,both were present throughout the events that surrounded them ,so the same pattern of events are occuring with the INVISIBLE kingly presence of jesus today

"As early as in the year 1876, in an article that he submitted for publishing in The Bible Examiner, the president had pointed forward to 1914 as the date for “the times of the Gentiles” to end, with serious consequences for the whole world of mankind."

Back in 1876, only a few people were listening. A good number left his Bible study group.  However, has time was getting closer then more started to gain understanding.  In the Bible Students Monthly, on January, 1914, Brother Russell wrote: "'The Earth Abideth Forever' Christ will not return to Earth as a Man - Present Year Believed to Mark Great Change of Dispensation, but World May not discern Immediate Difference."

"Our Lord, in describing His Second Presence, clearly indicated that it would be unnoticed by the world until the cataclysm of trouble should come. Thus He likened the earlier days of His presence to that period before the Flood, when the world, unconscious of the impending catastrophe, continued to build, eat and drink as usual, and knew not. So, says the Master, it will be in the end of this Age. Eating, drinking, building, planting and marrying will proceed as usual; and the world will not know that they are in the PRESENCE of the Son of Man."

And we seen evidence of this even in 2022 on this very board.  They reject and deny that the Last Days have begun. When we preach and let people know we are now at the end of this period, people scoff and ridicule us, majority of those being religious hypocrites!  Denying the very Name of JEHOVAH or sat idly by while apostates were slandering. 

Notice he didn't write Second Coming, but rather 'Second Presence'? Brother Russell was speaking of Christ's PAROUSIA--PRESENCE. He continues, "The Bible nowhere tells that Jesus took the human nature to keep it forever, and to return with it to Heaven, where it would be completely out of order and out of place. The Bible teaches, on the contrary, that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50); and that Jesus was made flesh merely 'that He, by the grace of God, should taste death for every man' (Heb 2:9) and that after doing this work He would "ascend up where He was before." (John 6:62) The great Day of Trouble, noted throughout the Scriptures as the Time of Trouble such as never was since there was a nation, will come upon them suddenly."

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7 hours ago, Peter Carroll said:

provide the scipture not your opinion

She's not a sister but an impostor.   

9 hours ago, Arauna said:

The earthly time of Job was just before Moses came to Oz.... so we can place these literal events in a earthly time frame.  (There is no physical time in heaven).

  • She doesn't even know that Jesus was Crowned in 1914 to become King of God's Kingdom.
  • She also rejected that the Last Days are coming to their End. 
  • She refused to stand up to the apostates when JEHOVAH was being slandered.
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3 hours ago, BroRando said:
  • She doesn't even know that Jesus was Crowned in 1914 to become King of God's Kingdom.
  • She also rejected that the Last Days are coming to their End. 
  • She refused to stand up to the apostates when JEHOVAH was being slandered.

I do not believe any of the above - therefore, you are trying to slander me.  Do you realize that?  This is unchristian behavior.  This is all slander without proof!

I did not agree with your word choices about 1914 - that is all.  I have have been on this forum much longer than you and have partaken in discussions about 1914 and the year 607....... and I can assure you I am one of the few who fully accepts 1914 as the year Jesus was crowned in heaven.  So go and slander someone else.

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56 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not believe any of the above - therefore, you are trying to slander me.  Do you realize that?  This is unchristian behavior.  This is all slander without proof!

I have no need to slander you.  But your weeping and gnashing of teeth give spiritual evidence of what is happening to up. You can cry and scream all you want, it won't change a single thing. 

"Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be." (Matthew 13:40-42)

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

The earthly time of Job was just before Moses came to Oz.... so we can place these literal events in a earthly time frame.  (There is no physical time in heaven).

Not according to scripture. "However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)

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9 hours ago, BroRando said:

N

 There is no time in heaven but Jehovah puts everything in a timeline for us humans here on earth.... so I rephrase what I said above so that you can understand it:  Jehovah allowed Moses to write down what happened in heaven about Job,  so we know that this incident happened in the lifetime of Moses, or just before, in the area of Oz. 

Although events happen in the spiritual realm they are given to us in a certain earthly time frame - so we can understand it was real events in the spiritual realm.  How do we know that Jesus was crowned in the spiritual realm and it was a literal event which really took place? - it is timed with other prophecies which came true on earth..

How do we know when "symbolic"  Babylon the Great will be destroyed? Because we know that the "image of the beast" (which is a symbol which has been laterally identified by JWs) will be prompted by Jehovah to do this.   There are literal events happening -even if it is depicted in a symbolic way.  Literal events are written down for us to understand even they happen in the spiritual realm.

Personal attacks are a sign of weakness on your part - You are NOT a judge for Jehovah... Jehovah is the ultimate judge.

I think you should read the definitions of spiritual, literal, symbolic, before you write another article again.  the meaning of spiritual means it is how it affects a person themself. So when you use this word in a sloppy way it could mean that the person only experienced the event within themself and it was not a real event outside the person.  I tried to indicate to you there is a difference in the meanings but you are too stubborn to even look up  if you could have been wrong.   I could be wrong too....... but I am humble enough to acknowledge it if I make a mistake....... are you?

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