Donald Diamond

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 

 I do not consider this equal. This is where the word worship, as you pointed out, is the act of paying homage. I understand and agree with you on "worship" can mean to bow down, or fall face down. Now what do you do with scriptures that use the same word proskuneō after the description of already being bowed down?

Like for instance Matthew 4:9  "And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” 

Is this just homage or is it actual worship? It would be actual worship because the act of bowing down has already been done, thus there would be more to the word proskuneō based on the context. Don't you agree? 

 

I have not managed to work out how to use selective quotes, so will deal with this part of your response first. 

I don't agree with you.   The Greek verb proskuneo primarily means to bow down by prostration (more like we see Muslims do in their daily prayers).   Falling down is not bowing down.   In the scripture you quote, the action suggested was that Jesus should fall down and prostrate himself.  It was an act of subjection, not religious devotion.  

D.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

 I do not believe that the Father and the Son have equal authority. The Father is over the Son. What I said was that the Son and the Father deserve the same honor as stated in verse 23. This honor is placing value as we discussed earlier in this thread. This value is the point being made. If one values the Father greater than the Son then the value is not equal and this is not proper according to the scripture. I pose the same question to you:

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. Please describe how this is not so. How do you place equal value, but treat them differently?

It is very simple.   I honour my mother as I honour my father.  I honour my mother for different reasons than I honour my father.   In both cases, I honour them, but it is not the "same" honour as it is for different reasons.    Scripture tells us to honour those to whom honour is due - the reasons for that honour is different in each case.   Receiving honour is not a definition of deity.   In scripture we honour the Father for being God - we honour the Son for dying for us - something God could not do as He cannot die.

I do not see in scripture the concept of "equal worship".  The derivation of the word sometimes translated "worship" is simply "to bow the knee".  Sometimes it ids bowing to God, sometimes to humans beings.  The Israelites worshipped Jehovah (YHWH) and the king (I Chron 29:20) 

1Ch 29:20  And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Jehovah your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped Jehovah, and the king. (ASV)

- it is describing one act.  Do you consider this "equal worship"?  It clearly doesn't  mean that the human king is Jehovah.

D.

12 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

Hello  Shiwii,

I am glad that you can see that the passage gives us the reason why we honour the Son as we honour the Father.   But the passage is clearly saying that the Son and the Father God are not equal because the Son derives his authority from the Father.  We honour both the Father and the Son but for different reasons.   It is because the Son derives his authority from the Father, that we honour the Son,  not because they are intrinsically equal in authority which is what you appear to be claiming.   I don't see how you can read this passage in any other way.  The Father does not derive His authority from the Son.

D

16 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

It seems you are not reading the context of John 5:23.  The context gives the reason WHY we honour the Son as we would the Father:

Joh 5:19  So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
Joh 5:20  For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.
Joh 5:21  For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
Joh 5:22  The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23  that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Joh 5:24  Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Joh 5:25  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Joh 5:27  And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
 

This passage is about honouring the Son because of the authority in judgement and raising the dead, which the Father has granted to the Son.  It is not about the equality of the Father and Son.

D