AlanF

Scholar JW Pretendus wrote:
:: Who did the Jews become captive to and servants of? To Nebuchadnezzar and his sons. Until when were they captive? Until the kingdom of Persia began to reign in place of the kingdom of Babylon. In what year was that? In 539 BCE. Therefore the captivity of the Jews to Nebuchadnezzar and his sons ended in 539 BCE -- not in 537 BCE as the Watch Tower Society claims. What fulfilled "Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah"? The ending of the Jews' captivity by their being released by the newly reigning kingdom of Persia . . .   
I did not say they were. I've said consistently that a Jewish remnant left Babylon in early 538 BCE. I've said consistently that the Jews as a whole were no longer captive to "Nebuchadnezzar and his sons" after Babylon was overthrown simply because the Babylonian rulers were no longer in power and therefore could hold no captives.
For many years, Neil, your main tactic of argumentation has been to create straw men by misrepresenting what your oponents say. You're still at it. So unchristian!
538, actually.
So we agree on that. But the declaration of release was made in early (Nisan) 538 BCE, likely in conjunction with ceremonies connected with the beginning of Cyrus' first full regnal year (not his accession year, which began in late 539 shortly after his armies conquered Babylon). Since Ezra and Josephus together provide the only complete testimony (see https://ad1914.com/category/alan-feuerbacher/ ) on when rebuilding of the temple began (537 BCE), 537 is not possible for the return of the Jews to Judah, because temple rebuilding would have to have begun in 536 BCE, thus contradicting both Ezra and Josephus.
:: Also note that Jeremiah prophesied nothing about the land paying off sabbaths, so "Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah" had nothing to do with the paying off of sabbaths. Nor does the passage say that the paying of sabbaths ended when the 70 years ended. It merely says that during the 70 years the land would be paying sabbaths. Since various sources prove that the 70 years were a time of Babylonian supremacy over the Near East, and they most likely began in 609 BCE when Babylon overthrew the last remnants of the Assyrian empire, and they most certainly ended with Babylon's overthrow in 539 BCE, and Jerusalem was overthrown in 587 BCE, the sabbaths were certainly being paid during that time of Babylonian supremacy.
You just proved my point: Jeremiah nowhere makes such a prophecy.
If you disagree, then cite the appropriate passage.
More unevidenced gobble-de-goop. You still can't cite the Bible for evidence.
:: According to this rendering, all that Daniel said was that 70 years must pass before the desolations of Jerusalem would end, not that the end of the desolations would coincide with the end of the 70 years
Wrong. What Daniel says is ambiguous, as I have carefully explained.
Pure speculation and a fine example of circular argumentation. Far more likely, Daniel had already observed the fall of Babylon, and therefore concluded that the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy had ended, based on Jer. 25:11, 12: "'... and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,' declares Jehovah." Since Jehovah had clearly called to account the king of Babylon by removing him (Nabonidus) from power and killing his viceroy (and probably son, Belshazzar) Daniel could only conclude that the 70 years had ended.
:: This passage explicitly proves what I have said: the 70 years refer to Babylonian supremacy, not to the captivity of the Jews as a whole or the desolation of Jerusalem.
It does more than that. In conjunction with Jer. 25 and 27, it defines the 70 years as a period defined by Babylonian supremacy over the entire Near East, not merely supremacy over Judah or the captivity of the Jews. The latter was a minor event in Babylon's history.
     
:: Who are "these nations" that were to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years? The context of Jer. 25 is clear: the Jews and the nations round about. During what time period did they serve? From the beginning of Babylon's rule over the Near East in 609 BCE to its end in 539 when the Persian empire overthrew it.
:: Note that servitude is not the same as captivity. Jeremiah implored the Jews not to rebel against Babylon. If they did not, Jehovah would allow them to remain on their land during the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy. -- Jer. 27:4-11 They rebelled, and so were punished with captivity   
It does, but it mainly describes the 70 years as a period of servitude of Judah and all nations round about to Babylon. Jer. 25:8-11:
<< . . . I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations . . . and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. >>
Judah is not the primary focus; "all these surrounding nations" are a far bigger target.
Exactly. But just as many of them capitulated to Babylon and were not made captive or desolate, so did Judah have the opportunity (Jer. 27) but rejected it, and suffered the consequences.
Why do you continue to ignore Jeremiah 27?
Yes, of Judah and the surrounding nations.
Wrong.
Totally wrong. Keeping on repeating nonsense that was debunked 40 years ago does not make it true.
And of course, Josephus and Ezra prove that a return in 537 is impossible.
AlanF

As usual, JW defenders with their preset agenda are here making pronouncements on subjects they know little or nothing about. I'll disabuse them of some of their notions with facts.
On 1914:
C. T. Russell made the 1914 date the linchpin of his chronological doctrinal structure beginning in 1876. His creation, the Watch Tower Society, has continued with this false structure through today.
How do we know that Russell's chronological structure is false? By many methods, but what I'll mention here is that the proof is in the pudding:
Not a single one of Russell's predictions for visible events based on that structure came true.
Not one of the supposedly Bible-based claims made by Russell's successors in the Watch Tower Society for the post-1914 period are valid:
Famine in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
Pestilence in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
War has been, on average, nearly the same in terms of per capita killed than pre-1914.
Earthquake frequency and intensity have been about the same as pre-1914. The risk of death due to earthquakes is substantially lower than pre-1914; the per-capita death rate in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times lower than in the 20th century.
Had the mass killers of history claimed by the Watch Tower Society to have been operating on an unprecedently high level since 1914 actually been so operating, they would have killed an unprecedently high percentage of world population, resulting in a massive population crash. Yet we see a massive population explosion beginning in the early 1800s and continuing without letup through today.
Yes, today there are many potential severe killers on the loose: global warming, political crises, war, etc. But these do not support the Watch Tower Society's tradition about post-1914 events (e.g. famine, pestilence, war, earthquakes). Thus, trouble in the world today is irrelevent to the Watch Tower Society's claims about events beginning in 1914.

On 607:
The Watch Tower Society's pivotal date for its 1914 chronology is 537 BCE, which it bases on speculation that there were about two years between the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of some Jewish exiles to Judah in 537 BCE. Yet there is no proof of this speculation, and one will find only speculation in Watch Tower publications. Further, the available evidence is that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE, thus wiping out Watch Tower chronology in one fell swoop.
The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone. What Jeremiah predicted was 70 years of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East. Desolation of Judah was to occur only if the Jews refused to bow to Babylonian rule.
Much more could be said, but for now I'll leave it at that.
AlanF

As usual, JW defenders with their preset agenda are here making pronouncements on subjects they know little or nothing about. I'll disabuse them of some of their notions with facts.
On 1914:
C. T. Russell made the 1914 date the linchpin of his chronological doctrinal structure beginning in 1876. His creation, the Watch Tower Society, has continued with this false structure through today.
How do we know that Russell's chronological structure is false? By many methods, but what I'll mention here is that the proof is in the pudding:
Not a single one of Russell's predictions for visible events based on that structure came true.
Not one of the supposedly Bible-based claims made by Russell's successors in the Watch Tower Society for the post-1914 period are valid:
Famine in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
Pestilence in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
War has been, on average, nearly the same in terms of per capita killed than pre-1914.
Earthquake frequency and intensity have been about the same as pre-1914. The risk of death due to earthquakes is substantially lower than pre-1914; the per-capita death rate in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times lower than in the 20th century.
Had the mass killers of history claimed by the Watch Tower Society to have been operating on an unprecedently high level since 1914 actually been so operating, they would have killed an unprecedently high percentage of world population, resulting in a massive population crash. Yet we see a massive population explosion beginning in the early 1800s and continuing without letup through today.
Yes, today there are many potential severe killers on the loose: global warming, political crises, war, etc. But these do not support the Watch Tower Society's tradition about post-1914 events (e.g. famine, pestilence, war, earthquakes). Thus, trouble in the world today is irrelevent to the Watch Tower Society's claims about events beginning in 1914.

On 607:
The Watch Tower Society's pivotal date for its 1914 chronology is 537 BCE, which it bases on speculation that there were about two years between the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of some Jewish exiles to Judah in 537 BCE. Yet there is no proof of this speculation, and one will find only speculation in Watch Tower publications. Further, the available evidence is that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE, thus wiping out Watch Tower chronology in one fell swoop.
The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone. What Jeremiah predicted was 70 years of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East. Desolation of Judah was to occur only if the Jews refused to bow to Babylonian rule.
Much more could be said, but for now I'll leave it at that.
AlanF

As usual, JW defenders with their preset agenda are here making pronouncements on subjects they know little or nothing about. I'll disabuse them of some of their notions with facts.
On 1914:
C. T. Russell made the 1914 date the linchpin of his chronological doctrinal structure beginning in 1876. His creation, the Watch Tower Society, has continued with this false structure through today.
How do we know that Russell's chronological structure is false? By many methods, but what I'll mention here is that the proof is in the pudding:
Not a single one of Russell's predictions for visible events based on that structure came true.
Not one of the supposedly Bible-based claims made by Russell's successors in the Watch Tower Society for the post-1914 period are valid:
Famine in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
Pestilence in the world has, on average, been much less severe than pre-1914.
War has been, on average, nearly the same in terms of per capita killed than pre-1914.
Earthquake frequency and intensity have been about the same as pre-1914. The risk of death due to earthquakes is substantially lower than pre-1914; the per-capita death rate in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times lower than in the 20th century.
Had the mass killers of history claimed by the Watch Tower Society to have been operating on an unprecedently high level since 1914 actually been so operating, they would have killed an unprecedently high percentage of world population, resulting in a massive population crash. Yet we see a massive population explosion beginning in the early 1800s and continuing without letup through today.
Yes, today there are many potential severe killers on the loose: global warming, political crises, war, etc. But these do not support the Watch Tower Society's tradition about post-1914 events (e.g. famine, pestilence, war, earthquakes). Thus, trouble in the world today is irrelevent to the Watch Tower Society's claims about events beginning in 1914.

On 607:
The Watch Tower Society's pivotal date for its 1914 chronology is 537 BCE, which it bases on speculation that there were about two years between the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and the return of some Jewish exiles to Judah in 537 BCE. Yet there is no proof of this speculation, and one will find only speculation in Watch Tower publications. Further, the available evidence is that the Jews returned to Judah in 538 BCE, thus wiping out Watch Tower chronology in one fell swoop.
The claim that the prophet Jeremiah predicted exactly 70 years of desolation of Judah is demonstrably false, using the Bible alone. What Jeremiah predicted was 70 years of Babylonian hegemony over the Near East. Desolation of Judah was to occur only if the Jews refused to bow to Babylonian rule.
Much more could be said, but for now I'll leave it at that.
AlanF