Arauna

We have a saying in my language which translates that one can be caught by your own intelligence and get you in serious trouble! Allan is riding an ego wave here by treating people and relevant thoughts with distain. Everyone answering him is giving his inflated ego another puff of wind to get him bloated up further because he honestly believes he has superior intelligence. He has not carefully thought through all the processes of evolution because he would find the gaps. He only reads material which strengthens his ego - he believes he has superior intelligence and this is why he can understand evolution and us dummies can not. He does not care about morality - as his answers clearly indicate. Morality is going downhill at present in the world because more and more people are moving away from the values (right and wrong) of the bible. Soon we will have a free for all - like in the days before Jehovah gave the law to israel. The Mosaic law kept Israel cleaner than the nations around them. The nations were doing their own thing like burning their children, having sex with whomever they wanted and even violating their own children. Many of the ancient cultures had these practices because they made up their own good and bad values..... We need one set of values in the world to keep people from hurting each other, look after each other and cooperate to fix the earth - this is why I buy into the ideology of Jesus. No other ideology or philosophy can compare to this. Soon the worldly governments will push their values on us to try to maintain a measure of peace and security - but it is NOT going to work..... because wicked people always seek independence from any kind of moral value provided by the true God, Jehovah. False religion, greedy governments, financial opportunists and scientists with no moral values and integrity... they all will be removed!

Apologies for replying this late.... We only had hard winds on one day. We normally have freezing winds in February and Match but many have agreed that this year seems to be not as bad as usual (so far). I have been out on street work at the place we call "Gaza strip" and always dress warmly with layers of clothing, thick hat to cover the ears, thick gloves and scarf ....and very thick coat. With the hard wind I had to close my lips with my scarf because they were burning with dryness and cold from the wind... but it is really not as bad as it sounds if one dresses for the occasion. We have had snow and tonight maybe again. No blizzards so far....

I've seen a different kind of sloppiness from you - and it affects your integrity. You have made wild statements on this forum that were unfounded, such as, only Juda were returned back to their homeland etc... which is an important mistake and affects the outcome to the understanding of the subject 607 BCE. I bet you had the same sloppiness when you investigated that "extremely logical" arguments made by Dawkins. I am honest when I say - I have never met a Dawkins-disciple which has thought Darwinism through properly - they just take his 'expert' religion and follow it like a slave. As I have said before - these theories or other philosophies take the place of religion because one cannot believe in "nothing". I asked you a question before to see how committed you are to your religion. It is a 'blind faith' if it is not based on proper science..... even if most atheist professors and their disciples adhere to its "theories" and profess it as reality and fascistically do not tolerate any opposition in the universities. I am not going to argue this with you because you are committed to your 'faith' but if there is anything that is truthful in you, you will admit that the bone record is scant. It seems that nature made no mistakes at all - almost like a perfect god- most species appeared perfectly formed and every organ working together in perfect synchronization....no mistakes- perfect selections - almost like a theoretical god. There is no record of mistakes...and one would expect millions if we look at the number of different species around and the changes that were ongoing. What scientists cannot answer - and they know this because it is rarely talked about...... is that the different tissues and organs (liver, eyes etc.) developed over millions of years when the earth had " goldilocks" conditions..... long-term stable conditions for perfect selections... And yet, the complex sexual organs had to develop very quickly so the mammal can survive. What is more many mammals have such different sexual organs as to boggle the mind! Read up about it - it will stun you! Many are totally different to other organs. Evolution takes the easies path to survive...... why randomly develop separate sexual organs that function totally differently? .... when it is easier to have everything in one individual? What boggles the mind is that these organs developed totally separately by ...... chance...... and yet the one has sperm and the other eggs... and the shape of them is different and yet fits perfectly....and they can only reproduce when they are in the same area! Unthinking random selections that by chance happen to be totally different but happen to work perfectly together...and happen to develop in close proximity - theoretical god or miracles? And if you try to argue that nature could "cut and paste" the DNA language program - and add a little here and there to make up for the differences - then we need an intelligent programmer don't we - one who will cut and past just the right DNA sequence? Mathematics is also a 'language' which describes phenomena which cannot be described in other languages..... it depends on how the "tool" is utilized and helps to sift out ideas which are illogical..... but is it 'absolute' truth? Some treat math as a substitute god. Many theories for which we have calculations cannot be proven because humans are mortal and history has proven that we often make mistakes in our calculations/assumptions - and then one theory is replaced by another.... This is my last contribution on this subject since it has eaten too much of my time - I have an active life! Thanks to those who were kind and supporting.... I have looked at the Bible again and its consistency regarding the main theme tells me this is the only "reality". World conditions are also progressing as predicted since 1914 and greedy/arrogant scientists are main contributors to its problems - such as the poisons which are polluting our water resources and agricultural land, genetic engineering which is causing many sicknesses and may lead to world hunger because it is removing diversity, bombs which can destroy the earth over and over and much more... other frightening developments. So I will definitely not put my future in the hands of fallible men/scientists who are the brains behind the sciences which is contributing to the destruction of earth and sea (together with governments, false religions, and the economic system of the world which cares only for profits...or power) .........and all those uninformed humans who buy into its powers. The world is such as mess and rolling downhill quite fast.... Soon Jehovah will "prove to be" - as the meaning of his name indicates....the nations shall have to know that I am Jehovah.

WRONG! I agree with Foreigner - AlanF is arrogant about things he is ignorant off. He may have done number punching about the Biblical chronology and some dates but he does not have a clue about the living/social conditions of the time period - which is important to assess timelines as to what really happened on the ground – the practicalities of life such as travelling, dispersion of information etc. Also biblical history - he has no clue of this. He mocks JWs "mother" which is not our legally registered watchtower organization here on earth but actually refers to the heavenly organization in heaven - which of course he does not know of – so I give him credit for not knowing. But by his consistent, offensive and abrasive attitude we all know which "father" taught him his manners. John 8:44 (Anyone can err, I am not proud of my behavior either, but he is consistently derogatory/dismissive/disdainful) – which most aggressive atheists usually are… so he cannot help himself. It is hard to reason with someone with these personality qualities. The above quote of Alan is another FALSEHOOD which Mr AlanF is unaware of because he is following the ideas of useless Jewish scholars who deny their own history because they are atheist….. and the rest of the Jewish nation who do not follow the Torah (bible) but regard the Mishnah/Talmud as the highest authority - which is the human oral tradition - that Jesus rejected when he was on earth. Yes, not the entire the original nation of Israel returned and were scattered, which in modern times gave rise to claims of people's all over the world that they are the lost tribes because they have traditions similar to the Jews. What does the Bible itself say! The Bible gives a long list of the number of peoples who returned from Babylon – stipulating the family heads from the 12 tribes (and the goods). It also states that there were professing Israelites and Levites among them, who could not give proof of their tribal ancestry (genealogy), so there were some religious restrictions placed on the Levites. (Some of the scriptures quoted below.) The LAND was divided into 12 territories in the time of Joshua and by Jewish law – this land was to remain in the ownership of these tribes. A Jewish woman who inherited land had to marry within the tribe so the LAND would remain the property of the tribe - according to Mosaic LAW from Jehovah. So, Israel/Juda would not have come back from Babylon, after being punished by God for disobeying the law, and then break this very law by the rightful tribes being denied their land or another tribe taking over the land. Each tribe would have claimed their own ancestral land. So again what does the Bible say happened….. Prophecy Isiah 10 1. A remnant to return – : Jacob was the father of all 12 tribes 21 Only a remnant will return, The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God. 22 For though your people, O Israel, Are as the grains of sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return. 2. Prophecies which promised return of members of all 12 tribes which came from the lions of Jacob – and Israel and Juda are mentioned separately - in many prophecies: Jer 30 – 3 For “look! the days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will gather the captives of my people, Israel and Judah,” says Jehovah, “and I will bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers, and they will possess it once again.”’” 10 “And you, my servant Jacob, do not be afraid,” declares Jehovah,“And do not be terrified, O Israel. For I will save you from far awayAnd your offspring from the land of their captivity. Jacob will return and be calm and undisturbed,With no one to make them afraid.” 18 This is what Jehovah says: “Here I am gathering the captives of the tents of Jacob, And I will have pity for his tabernacles. 3. Jehovah will collect them from the LANDS OF THEIR ENEMIES (not just the satrap of Babylon) – so they will return from very far away Ezekiel 39:27 When I bring them back from the peoples and collect them together from the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’ 4. They will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them and the LAND will be cultivated Amos 9: 14 + 15 will gather back the captives of my people Israel, And they will rebuild the desolated cities and inhabit them; They will plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit.’ 15 ‘I will plant them on their land,And they will never again be uprooted From their land that I have given them,’ says Jehovah your God.” Juda mentioned separately here: Zep 2:7 5. When the Sabbaths were paid on the land: 2Chronicles 36: 21 – Sabbaths paid to fulfill Jehovah’s word spoken by Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days it lay desolate it kept sabbath, to fulfill 70 years. 6. Cyrus took Title of the ‘king of the four corners of the earth’ on New Year festival Nissan 538 BCE……an emperor with 120 vassals/satraps. Cyrus appointed Darius the Mede as the regent of the satrap of Babylon directly after the fall of Babylon Sept/Oct 539BCE. Cyrus came back for the New Years Festival. After the 12 day New Year’s Festival he issued his edict for nations to take their Gods back to their homelands – Israel and Juda could go back to rebuild the temple. EZRA 1:2 “This is what King Cyrus of Persia says, ‘Jehovah the God of the heavens has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has commissioned me to build him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. (Read my previous comment on how important this New Year’s Festival was in Babylon and also how the prediction of 2-horned goat called Media and Persia would overthrow the king of Babylon) 7. How large was the remnant which were gathered from the empire? 42,360 men and an additional 7,537 slaves and singers made the initial trip back- which took at least 4 months. This would bring the number of the first part of the “remnant” to return to over 200,000 people when one includes wives and children. Some came from the farthest reaches of the empire - from all over Persia Ezra 1:5 to Ezra 2 In Ezra to it tells us that Judah and Benjamin, who came from the jurisdictional district of Babylon, took their own cities in Judah and Jerusalem – it names the elders of the families From verse 3: gives us the leader’s names from the other tribes of Israel. Verse 2b: The number of the Israelite men included:…….. Verse 58 + 59 – some were not able to verify their ancestry! All the temple servants and the sons of the servants of Solʹo·mon were 392. 59 And these went up from Tel-meʹlah, Tel-harʹsha, Cheʹrub, Adʹdon, and Imʹmer, but they were unable to verify their paternal house and their origin, as to whether they were Israelites: Also verse 62: These looked for their records to establish their genealogy, but they did not find them, so they were disqualified from the priesthood. 63 The governor told them that they could not eat from the most holy things until there was a priest who could consult the Uʹrim and Thumʹmim. We see that this repatriation was not a mish-mash operation but done meticulously so everyone could claim their land and verify their tribal origins…. Jehovah inspired his Bible – it is all there! It is a pity that scholars do not respect this book more! It is just a number punching exercise for them 64 The total number of the entire congregation was 42,360, 65 apart from their male and female slaves, who were 7,337; they also had 200 male and female singers. 66 Their horses were 736, their mules 245, 67 their camels 435, their donkeys 6,720. 68 When they arrived at the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem, some of the heads of the paternal houses made voluntary offerings+ for the house of the true God, to rebuild it on its own site.

Great job dear! Very interesting. I like it when we share information where everyone can learn something... even if we do not always agree. Good Move!

We are not talking about the city of Cain or the nomadic settlements in the time of Abraham - (although Ur was a city state and Melchizedek was a priest-king of Jerusalem /Salem) in his time. We are talking about the culture of cities-states which was started by Nimrod (built many cities in Babylon and Assyria) and formed the network of cities which became the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires. comparing apples with .... In Greece they also had city-states...... Athens, A polis consisted of an urban centre, often fortified and with a sacred centre built on a natural acropolis or harbour, which controlled a surrounding territory (chora) of land. The term polis has, therefore, been translated as ‘city-state’ Other cultures had a similar social and political structure, notably, the Babylonians, Etruscans and Phoenicians, among the most important were Athens, Sparta, Corinth, Thebes, Syracuse, Aegina, Rhodes, Argos, Eretria, and Elis. Abraham was looking forward to a 'city' - as described by Paul. This refers to a government with a king which is a priest - like Melchizedek! Later cities: the function of the priests became separated from that of the king.... Most cities had large temples where priests fed and clothed the God of the city and tended to the "God" and people who came for predictions. All were polytheists - so there were many shrines to the other Gods.

1. The Jews from the 10 tribe were scattered ALL over the empire - many of those taken by the Syrian empire were put in Elam and the cities of the Medes....and the river Gozan. Look on a map - this is at the outskirts of the empire territory. The root cause of the ten tribe deportation is given in 2 Kings 18: 11,12 together with the names of the areas they were deported to. The root cause for Israel was the SAME reason for the exile of the Juda - disobedience to the law and the pollution of the land. They broke the covenant of Jehovah excessively with their deity worship. NOT a whim of Jehovah for them to have a change...of ruler Your 'theory' above - not true. It must have taken some time to reach them in the far reaches of the empire! The call went out to ALL of israel to return. 2. 617 BCE - Jehoiachin - The upper class of the population is taken to the Babylon - including the metal workers, mighty warriors, craftsmen, court officials princes, including Daniel and his 3 friends, Ezekiel and their families.... the numbers for the men are given in the scriptures I cited in my response above - the number of men as the numbers of the wives and children are not given. I have already given you the proof that Ezekiel (Ez 1) visited a community of the first group of exiles at the river Chebar...... Not all these people were settled in the city of Babylon itself and they were not in a position to hear any court gossip....too far away... look on your map where they were...(there were two more incursions by Nebuchadnezzar after this - most probably taking all the smaller cities around Jerusalem.) 3. The poor people who were left behind under Zedekia and the prophet Jeremiah - together with a group of high officials - could have been spared being removed from the land BUT as you rightly said - they did not listen to Jeremiah/Jehovah. However! The first group of exiles had already left for Babylon almost 10 years before - it was not the entire group that would have been spared the exile as you have implied in your previous answers. The temple of worship was destroyed and all the rest in the city were taken. Thousands who took refuge in Jerusalem during the 18 month siege (some Jewish sources say 30) died from famine and sickness, war injuries, and the fire which destroyed the temple ( Lam 4:10 With their own hands compassionate women have cooked their own children I remember reading that the Babylonians catapulted dead bodies, which Jews had thrown over the wall (most probably swollen in the heat), they were projected back into the city - the conditions must have been absolutely devastating - especially for Jews who were not supposed to touch a dead body. The Talmud says that almost a million died.... I believe this is exaggerated but it gives one a good idea of the devastation - apart from those who died in other cities. Zedekiah's sons and many, officials, priests etc. were put to death. Only 832 men survived Jerusalem with the remnants of their families. Jer 52:29 (In the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar, 832 people were taken from Jerusalem). Jerusalem and its land was definitely left desolate. Jer 9:11 11 “I will make Jerusalem a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals;and I will lay waste the towns of Judah so no one can live there.” 13...The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, Jer 32: 43 - a wasteland without man and beast Several archeologists confirm that archeological surveys confirm there was not a single known case where a town of Judah was continuously occupied because of the violence that was visited on the Judah. City after city was ceased to be inhabited at this time - some never to be reoccupied. The above scriptures and events prove why the countryside was almost empty - all the deaths and the exile of those who survived - that hegemony was NOT the main reason for the exile but it was disobedience to Jehovah that led to the total devastation of their capital city and its land.

All cities of significance were city-states with a priest-king in highest position in earlier times - especially Babylon because it was the center of worship since its inception! Mostly a place with fortified walls. Later a city state became the central part of a large district it administered.... with a priesthood and a king and a temple to the main deity of the city. Most cities had many shrines to multiple gods but each city had its principal deity - the supreme god of the city. The 10 tribes were scattered all over the empire (and the Judeans at the Chebar river )..... Most of the exports and imports were always done by river or canal because this was faster than a cart. They were ideally situated to 'produce' and export. Pottery could also be practiced at a river but the metal workers were highly valued and would be attached to the capital city because they could manufacture weapons.

1. After initial fall of Jerusalem: 10,000 princes, 7000 mighty warriors, and every craftsman and metal worker which were 1000 - 2kings 24:11-16 - He left the poor behind. A separate number of high ranking MEN are named in 2 Kings 24:14 and these numbered 3,023 Did you notice something about all these numbers? They were only the family heads (men). The children and wives were not numbered. 2. After approximately 10 years (in 607) - Most of the remaining ones were removed from the land - 2Kings 25:11 it is described as "the rest of the population". I do not know where you got your "scholarly ' information - but it is not accurate! Additionally - Ezekiel 1:1 Now it happened in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. Verse 2: In the fith year of exile of Jehoiachin the word of Jehovah came to Ezekiel by the river Chebar……. Some of the first captives were already living at Chebar! 3. The tablets you mentioned above - I quote: “The tablets shed light on the Judeans’ contributions, detailing taxes paid, debts owed, credits accumulated and trade in fruits and other commodities.” These commodities will include agricultural produce, flax (for linen clothing) and food for many animals - which will include animal husbandry. I have a peeve with you - you think if you keep on denying something and ignoring something it will become true. What was the root cause for the exile.... please answer...... their religious disobedience or was the reason that God had a whim to put them in a foreign land for no reason at all?

The 70 years ended when Cyrus took the title of "King of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world" on NEW YEARS DAY (12 day yearly festival) Nissan 538 BCE. Cyrus started his campaign in September 539 BCE when he crossed the Tigris with the subsequent Battle of Opis. After this he went after Nabonidus who had fled to Sippar - who managed to get away again from Sippar. Babylon fell next. Later Nabonidus gave himself up at Babylon because he had no allies. Cyrus issued his edict shortly after his crowning allowing the Jews and other nations to take their gods with them - to their home.

This scripture in Jeremia also refers to the LAND - also read Isiah 1 which I quoted earlier in a previous contribution - the LAND would be without the usual planting. The root cause:: Israel's problem was not hegemony - but religious. God did not send them to Babylon because he wanted a new ruler for them on a whim - it was a punishment because they had defiled the LAND with bad religious practice and not keeping the Sabbaths. So after 70 years when they return and the land is becoming active like before

These dates were made to coincide with Egyptian dates. As I have pointed out many times before, the Egyptian chronology is faulty as it was laid down in stone shortly after Egyptology started in the early 19th century. There are many dissidents of this chronology but they are not allowed to dig in Egypt..... there is intellectual monopoly on this. The most accurate way to test the date of 607 BCE is to go to the Greek sources (olympiads) - they are more accurate and the PIVITOL date is the death of Cyrus from which on can determine the length of his rule and how long it would take the Israelite nation to return to their LAND.

Yes - the domination of Israel is the primary reason for the mention of the 70 years. Babylon put themselves on "high" - above the nation of Jehovah (which is part of the main theme of the Bible). All the prophecies in the bible which indicate other nations (empires) dominating Jehovah's people has to do with the 'gentile times". How gentiles would dominate the nation of God.

If you read my contribution (above) you will notice that Darius was appointed as soon as the city was taken - it would become a satrap in a greater empire - hence the title of king of Babylon, Sumer and Akkad and of the four corners of the world - an imperial title. He took the title in Nissan 538 BCE.

The bible says 70 or 80 years..... but one never finds a generation where everyone is the same age - they all vary.... born in different years.... so they overlap.... 80 if one is strong and 100 if exceptionally strong!.... something I will not see!