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Equivocation

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Equivocation last won the day on April 4 2022

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  1. Not in all other Bibles lol 😆. Non Bible canons were removed from some revisions, the KJV kept it tho. John 7:53 to 8:11 is The Adulterous Woman passage (Pericope de Adultera) - The fact is that it isn't Bible Canon making it spurious and false or an exaggerated story. There are 267 Greek manuscripts, which are the earliest versions, and are considered the most important by textual analysts, and none of those 267 contain this passage about the Adulterous Woman. Newer Bible translations that were compiled, and wrote after the more ancient manuscripts were discovered, either omit/removethe passage or add a note or reference along with the passage, stating it was not found in the more ancient manuscripts. The same case can be made for other passages and or verses, even forgeries. So there was a reason why you won't find it in the NWT or any revised Bible, in the notes of some translations, it explains to you why. Some people like to mess around with whatever Paul or John wrote lol 😆
  2. I never said you said it, I asked in question was Paul in the wrong for taking action? The modern day practice is still similar to how it was in the early days. Disciplinary action isn't simply done by one person, but from the looks of it, a few members in the congregation who act as elders, such as Paul. Dismissal of wrongdoers isn't something apostatized. In fact, to not do so at all, there are already examples today, posted my a few others over the years. There were people in the congregation that had some roles to keep the congregation community clean and maintain pure worship. Yes, that may be the case, but some people were not repented and never brought back into the congregation. This is why I pointed out in my last comment that there are those who are repented and those who are not, but regardless, we clearly see a disciplinary action done in the congregation as noted in Paul's letter. If you were an elder, be it back then or present day, you'd of course welcome back a person who is truly repented, but one who isn't and remains a problem you wouldn't bring him back knowing he would cause problems. This, in turn, can damage thr community. Only congregation ties are cut. If someone is removed from the community, they don't really communicate with members, but they still do with family members, like I said, cultures do play a part in this and I already gave you legitmate experiences. Even if the person is Expelled, they can still see talks and partake in meetings, JWs do not practice censure. Even in commentary, this is also mentioned and these commentaries did not originate with the Watchtower. But by the looks of it, you seem to assume that we practice censure. It should also be known that regular former witnesses and Apostates aren't the same type of people, Apostates are the only ones who really do seek repentance. Former witnesses, some of them, at least try to cling on to some values where Apostates do not. So you are saying that the GB came up with shunning..... When this was something associated with Expelling in a religious sense, even outside of the Watchtower? In regards to shunning, current witnesses do not really associate with anyone Expelled, unless the person in question is indeed seeking repentance and recognizes what they have done was wrong. I even mentioned elders do make an effort to speak with these people, since, these types of former witnesses are more receptive to speaking vs Apostate who refuses to repent. I brought this up some time ago too. 🤷🏾‍♂️ So why assume Christian values and teaching it, from the article, although it being a core teaching of true Christians, as false? Wouldn't it make follow and promote what Jesus taught? This is what I don't get. Ofc, Jesus will indeed come to finish the rest, but that doesn't mean we should remain idle as a community deteriorates because of a problem. We are imperfect but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If expelling is satanic then it contradicts why Jesus established it to begin with, let alone practiced by thr congregations. Makes you think what would happen if Paul didn't expel those who practiced sexual immorality. Even today, since Christendom abandon Expelling, it resulted in marks of false Christendom to plague the congregations, examples like the teaching of God being genderless, same sex marriage, interfaith and a list of other things. 🙅🏾‍♂️ To not deal with problems, you invite them and some negativity splashes over to others indirectly. The irony of it all, if you factor out us Jehovah’s Witnesses, the people you meet while preaching, will mention the same thing, regarding a Godless society.
  3. You are saying this but previously you said, Jehovah’s Witnesses worship thr GB as if they are above God and made an assumption based on the titles of a few articles when, any glance of what is there, tells a different story. You also said the GB said to follow them and ignore God and Christ, I asked where was this said but you never gave an answer to that so, this still remains in the assumption vs what is actually said or mentioned in the articles you listed, I don't see how Christian Values and Bible study amongst family members is false. There is no surprise that some people show a little bit too much honor, however, you wouldn't catch them swapping Jehovah God out for someone else. 🤷🏾‍♂️ Those taking the lead will give provisions but never do they subscribe to Godhood, equality to God. 🤨 Also we don't do idol worship. My last comment, I mentioned idols, images and anything carved isn't associated with true worship, especially in meetings. I even said that some former witnesses would try to state otherwise, but ultimately, refuted, which @Jesus.defender did, although he post some of the stuff here, he did PM some of us here. The good thing is many who learn a thing or two from us Jehovah’s Witnesses is that they have abandoned forms of idol worship. It is also an example of the difference of identifying marks of a True Christian vs current Christendom. If you are unsure what Christian values are, the article in your screenshot mentioned that it is essentially principles followers of Jesus hold as important, and these values are practiced by members of not only the congregation, but a family and or household. Some of these values stem from making good decisions, knowing right from wrong, even maintaining morality. So it is confusing to see something like this seems negative in what you were implying previously. Is it because the GB repeated what Jesus said that makes it false? 🤔
  4. It is one of several verses, and from the comment,several passages, even explicit examples in the Bible itself. The commentary used was not of Watchtower origin however they themselves also cited it, and the context and literal practice is brought up, even with the word Congregation (Church). As for Matthew 18:17, if you didn't see it, there was a reference. Congregation or ekklesia can also mean the members in the congregation including ordained elders, and or individual Christian congregations. Matthew 16:18 is also cited where Jesus not only mentions the members of the congregation but in context is refering to anointed Christians who are also called living stones. Even in example, going back to the Corinthians, Paul, essentially an elder, was informed by a regular congregation member about problems in Corinth, and Paul went to address it by means of letters, Paul clearly was a fellow member along with Corinth, the Romans. Etc. as part of the Christian Congregation that is made up of anointed ones and regular members. So the question is, if excommunication was an issue, why did Jesus establish it and why did Paul actually remove wrongdoers from the congregation if, in your words, it is a wrong practice? And secondly, you never explained how anyone, and or any Jehovah’s Witnesses should deal with a wrongdoer, knowing unrepentant sins can ruin a congregation community. Paul excommunicated Christian who were unrepentant and continued to practice sexual immorality. Paul also excommunicated Hymenaeus and Alexander. Was Paul in the wrong?
  5. Let's hope no congregation raids again (for Peter's sake, since he was verbally attacked), there is already a phenomenon of raiding and disrupting gatherings taking place. Not to mention all the crazy stuff happening around it.
  6. @redHarmonioussparrow Bingo, 100% 👍🏾 @AudreyAnnaNana My knowledge on the UN is not that limited lol, but yeah that sums it up, however like I said people like @JW Insider know their stuff, especially both @Arauna and @Space Merchant. 🤷🏾‍♂️. There was 2 other people I forgot to mention, his name started with a K and another guy who had a profile picture of a black cat sporting a dress tie, I think his name was Outta Here.
  7. @AudreyAnnaNana Unfortunately, Excommunication DOES have some contextual meaning and usages in the Scriptures, and in the Christian congregation (there were people literally excommunicated in the Scriptures; having congregation ties cut). There were points, even Space Merchant made on here that solidifies that, even in example of verses that shows such. Like the early Christians, the JWs apply it (Jehovah’s Witnesses practice Expelling for a reason, it wasn’t something random concerning wrongdoers), we don’t do total censure though, which was a claim someone made a while back. The practice of Expelling (Excommunication or Disfellowshipping) of incorrigible wrongdoers is a clear and explicit teaching in the Bible. As some mentioned before, or in your pervious discussion with SM, it was pointed out that Jesus Christ was the very person to establish this as a requirement for the Christian congregation, to not even recognize this, is a telling sign of what I met about identifying marks of a True Christian, in terms of knowing what the Bible says or what Jesus says. For example, Matthew 18:17, which reads: [17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.] The context of his words points back to how judges and officers represented the nation of Israel in dealing with judicial matters under the Old Law Deut. 16:18. In Jesus’ day, offenders answered to the local courts made up of Jewish elders, and later, men would be appointed by the spirit to act as judges in each Christian congregation. For these offenders would end up being treated as a tax collector of whom the Jew had no dealings with. In the Christian congregation, or in this case, among Jehovah’s Witnesses, Expelling, according to commentary, is an exercise by the Christian Congregation, is not merely founded on the natural right, possessed by all societies, nor merely on the example of the Jewish Church and nation. It was instituted by our Lord… The meaning of this is, cease to have religious intercourse with him... Regard him as obstinate, self-willed, and guilty... We should disown him as a Christian brother...This is the only way of kindness. This is the only way to preserve peace and purity in the church… Christ’s teachings repeatedly showed that a willful incorrigible reprobate would be “cast out” from true worshipers, especially in the “last days” during his second presence. And that “his servants” would be commanded to carry out this command. Obviously, the Apostles understood that Christ commanded the expelling of obstinate sinners since Paul showed that it was done with Christ's authority. Expelling can be permanent or temporary regarding congregation members who were cast out of the community. This practice, specifically mentioned in Matthew's Gospel (Mt.18:15-17) and the Corinthian correspondence (1 Cor.5:5; 2 Cor. 2:6), served 2 purposes. Although congregation ties are cut, Family ties remain (usually depends on the culture in most cases), for, there are former Witnesses, some whom I ran into, who said they’re expelling was justified because of some of the thing they did, some things they do not want to go into detail about, these former witnesses are different from the Apostate types who are very rude and aggressive in some cases, even towards former witnesses who do not share in their thoughts and ideas, in two situations, I had to defend the bullied, in this case, another, regarding someone’s girlfriend, who was studying with us at the time, being the subject of attack by Apostates, resulting in a very angry significant other and an angry community. Anyways those 2 purpose, being, [1] It protects the community from the harmful influence of the sinner (1 Cor.5:6-7). [2] It reminds the sinner of the sin (2 Cor.2:7) in the hope that repentance (7:9) and redemption occur. Expelling can be done instituted via various actions (ofc used in the correct way), for example, serious matters, sexual sins (1 Corinthians 5:1), Unrepentance (Matthew 18:15-17), Facetiousness (Titus 3:10-11) and speaking heresies (Roman 16:17), so we, as True Christians, would need to stop mixing company with such persons. Or other practices that are unclean and or immoral. Anyone who is truly showing repentance, we are to forgive and take that person back, this is why there is a reinstate process to this too (James 5:14-16; Acts 17:30; Proverbs 28:13). The action deals with sinners and or wrongdoers, and it are done to dealt with them quickly and seriously for both the health of the community and the spiritual health cast out. One of the identifying marks of True Christians and a faith is to follow what Jesus said, as is follow the command of the one who sent him, therefore, within a community of Christians who worship the True God together, we are to remove willful sinners on the grounds of sin, even serious sin. We already see the state of those who do not even follow what Jesus command, and now look what entered into their church to fit in with what is seen as normal in today’s society. Just wanted confirmation lol. I bring it up because unlike everyone here I do not log on here as much, but how you constantly post remind me of Witness, in a way, even Jesus.Defender. I think she is a nice person too, but as others have pointed out, even others who aren’t even religious, points out she is misguided. Since we are all talking about core teachings, there were some things that she has said that are both contradicting and or did not make sense in some cases. She was also unfazed and seem supportive of the very people who raided my Hall some years ago. 🤷🏾‍♂️ Indeed, God has not change, but it should not stop us from following his command, as well as the command of his Son. To fail on trying to keep the community clean would only result in problems later on, and upon his return, judgement for not taking action.
  8. Well that is unfortunate, but from the looks of it, maybe you were excommunicated? That disciplinary action made by elders results in congregation ties being cut, but it doesn't stop you from attending meetings or listening to talks. That action wasn't made by man, but if you really look into where it came from, it came from Jesus and later applied by the early Christians, for instance, Paul who instructed the Corinthians. Even if someone is excommunicated, elders can make the attempt to meet with and talk to the person to see what's up. But here is the problem, you implied Religious worship regarding the GB, and ignore what the articles you screenshotted states, you even said that the GB themselves ignored Jesus and to follow them alone, likewise to ignore Jehovah, this is why I asked you specifically where the GB said this but it seems again you are going upon your own assumption. Just from discerning alone you seem to be confusing Religious worship and honor, even brushed over a few examples and what @Araunasaid. As we young people say, that is kinda sus 🤷🏾‍♂️. Last I checked, us JWs do not use idols or graven images in worship to God and honoring his Son. I think some apostates tried to equate logos to idols but, like what happened to @Jesus.defender, that failed. As far as I know there is only a few people here who are very very knowledgeable about the UN itself, @JW Insider is one of them, I learned from him about some stuff, as well as from @Arauna, for I had no idea what the WEF is until she explained it alongside Agenda 21 stuff or all this Globalist stuff that, to be honest, sounds like a Legion of Doom kind of group lol. Then you have the guy who is literally in the crossfire and war zone of all things UN, Babylon and the Beast, and people with agendas, @Space Merchant, who ironically, although cryptic at times, his words have some sense, and often times is true, for example Ukraine, China and the Education system, he was right about the UK, his community tends to know things that are vital from the way he talks on here. The United Nations is a threat but I doubt they would go for bethel first. If you made attention to what those 3 mentioned over the years, you'd realize it. I am not as knowledgeable regarding the subject matter as they are but I know a bit. But that last remark is kind of sus, you sure you aren't @Witness or Pearl? 🤔 because they said similar but got their information on the UN, their actions, etc. mixed up. Just saying. 🤷🏾‍♂️ Well, back to the question, where did the GB specifically said what you mentioned now about following them but not Jehovah or Jesus? 🤔 After all, if you said they say this, clearly you saw it somewhere. By the way, my example from earlier is regarding this story, not only I cited the title, but gave a brief summary of what happened and the aftermath on how these people honored the pilots- https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-metro-hudson-miracle-landing-20190114-story.html
  9. You should be aware of the identifying marks of a True Christian, example, True Christians aren't peddlers of God's word however false Christendom are as such, so much so to even hustle the word of God, at the same time they profane places for worship, i.e. using places of worship for recruitment for other organizations and or political ones, polling, etc. That what you posted several people on this form already dealt with using the Bible, and some basic history (1914, expelling, etc.), so it is not any good to use again, well here, since the only person who constantly came on to cause problems for not only JWs but anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God (Triune) was @Jesus.defender. He sent me this links relating to some of that stuff also. Speaking of which, he's been absent for some time, realizing also @Witness, although not a fan of some of the things Pearl teaches which often times moves away from core, being absent too. 🤔
  10. If that is the case, in the article I put in bold text, can you show me or anyone else here if your implication is true. Other then that there are brothers and sisters who do show a lot of honor but I doubt they show religious worship to anyone other then the very God they preach about. In comparison we can use Sully Sullenberger and Jeffrey Skiles as examples (The Miracle on the Hudson), for what they did, they were given honor, but given way too much honor by a few, but the people who do it do not consider either Sully or Jeffrey above the GB of aircraft, that is, the FAA. From the focused article: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20010515/Building-a-Spiritually-Strong-Family/ Second article from your screenshot: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2003805 So far, I don't see anywhere where it is implied that the GB demands worship in the same sense as God. Or demand superiority in the same sense as Jesus. 🤷🏾‍♂️ Although they, as the early Christians like Paul, Timothy, Titus, etc. Take the lead, none of them even ponder the idea of being equal to or like God himself; which Paul cited in parallel to Jesus in Philippians 2:6. Where did they say this specifically? I'm aware in obeying concerning spiritual provisions and matters (Hebrews 13:17 with CONTEXT ofc), but never have I seen them say to strictly follow them and ignore Jesus, or Jehovah for that matter, which wouldn't make sense at all lol 😆. It's a contradicting statement also because of the Command given to Christians (not sure if you answered that one when I mentioned). Actually it does matter. You said in your other comments about implications of religious worship to the GB and you reinforced that to others here, like @Arauna. To say it doesn't matter now wouldn't make sense if you posted those screenshots. 🤷🏾‍♂️ Weaving false worship? The articles, if read speaks on honoring those who provide spiritually. What is so bad about having Bible study with family and younger ones, let alone cultivating in faith concerning the Bible? I mean, the Corinthians honored Paul for stepping in to resolve an issue in the congregation, as did others, since he and a few others provided that assistance, and never made themselves above Jehovah or Jesus. In addition, some of the articles also encourages values to be applied to an individual and or a family, even a congregation as a whole, this is what some refer to as Christian Values, which, is indeed part of core worship as @Space Merchanthas always talked about, even others, @JW Insider or @Anna to name a few on here from time to time. So, to ignore that, and rely on assumption, can be a problem. Everyone likes Christian Values and believe it or not, be it that core teachings is spoken by the GB or not, it is definitely what this country needs. That is why it is important to know the identifying marks of the Christian faith and how it is vastly different from false Christendom. We might not be judges, but Christians are capable of discerning, this includes both you and me, or anyone else here. Even be, rational or logical, in some cases. What I was referring to, which I thought you'd say it, the 2 routes were those who follow Jesus' command mentioned in Matthew 28:16-20. There are Christians who follow this command, and those that don't. SM already mentioned the Great Commission in this thread. Those that follow the command also understands what Matthew 24:14 implies.
  11. This may be true, but as @Space Merchant said before and I guess here, if you can't recognize core teachings from what isn't core, you are going to have a problem, probably why he gave you that question about different faiths in the first place. You can see @Srecko Sostar's answer about the New Covanant (assuming it was conjured by the GB) vs @Arauna and SM's, both knowing where it originated from, and that is only ONE example. 🤭 Although False Christendom is near it's end, it takes a discerning individual to know what are the true identifying marks of a True Christian or a True faith vs marks of a false Christian or a false faith, this goes for those who ultimately have bad intentions, like people who falsify forgiveness before God while at the same time manipulate others for a gain, something I posted a while back. At the end of the day, yes, some false teachings are to be cast aside but as Christians we were given a specific command, that we must do in this day and age. Doing so or refuse puts Christians on 2 seperate routes.
  12. It is a simple question regarding what you posted in your conversation with @Arauna. So that is where the curiosity sits. From what you posted before, you were implying that we worship the GB as if they were above God himself, even @Arauna raised a brow to it, and the other guy with the long name (can't "@" him for some reason) even questioned you. You then brought up a series of screens to imply worship of a religious kind, even compared using the Shintoist/Buddhism practitioners, even went as far as to use the English definition whereas if any of us already know "worship" has several meanings, just as @Space Merchant. As for the articles listed in your screenshot, when you read it for context, shows something entirely different from what you were suggesting. Example the first article in your screenshot, titled, Building a Strong Spiritual Family. When clicked and read through, the focus is helping to grow Spiritually, as a family and about children; them developing in this sense, in turn builds the family. The discreet slave, in this case, like the first century Christians, do what they can to provide in, in turn, assisting with the Spiritual growth of a child, Matthew 24:45-47, i.e. Bible study with kids, encouraging to read about God everyday, Joshua 1:8, just as Jesus had done as a child. Even in comparison, it is no different in a school board or committee (also a GB in that field) taking a similar role in the educational growth of a child. So, just as early Christians were thankful, even honored, of people like Paul and a few others, doesn't mean they were worshipped religiously like God. Same case today. There may be some who show way too much honor but never in their right mind would they replace the Most High for a follower on the same route as they are on. 🤷🏾‍♂️
  13. @Space Merchant I don't know if she answered it but it is obvious why many faiths even us JWs exist and why only a few actually try to figure out what is true or not. We believe we have the truth in what you state as core teachings. For example, the biggest one being why we do not follow the Trinity, as well as not follow Binitarianism. Jesus made it clear, as his followers, that he is the som of the Living God. Paul was right on where Christianity was going and we see that in history, eventually leading up to other faiths rising up knowing some crumb of truth. A lot of people like to bash Bible Students not realizing that in that era they, among many, were still learning about the Bible and prophecy, so when a mistake is made, more study is done. Even Christians around that time were very very eager of the second coming of Christ so can't really blame them from learning and applying afterwards. Today, more and more people are learning what is the truth about God, so that is definitely a good thing. This goes hand in hand with some traditions, now abandon by some people when they realize the history. When we Jehovah’s Witnesses go out and preach there are legitimately a lot of people who wants to hear about what the Bible teaches or even expand on what they want to know.
  14. So why the assumption vs the article? 🤔. This isn't the first time someone brought this up, I remember this being done in the past on here.
  15. @AudreyAnnaNana I mean, highlighted words is one thing to convey what you assume, but reading what the article(s) says for context is ANOTHER thing. For instance, even if you factor out faiths today, Jehovah God did have people, even a mediator that cares for the others in a spiritual sense, even provide if need be. Anyone of that level do not consider themselves as a God above or equal to Jehovah himself, likewise with the early Christians who provided for the Congregation, namely Paul, who would never ponder on something like that, so much so said the same thing concerning Jesus in comparison to God. Christians do however honor people taking the lead, as seen by early Christians and present day, but never do they religiously worship someone. This is why it is important to read for context, read what is said and the verses used instead of adding what you assume. I can read an article about talking animals in the modern day, but the context of the article doesn't even suggest literal talking. And speaking on this, even my professors have stated that there are some people who only read titles or look for keywords to make an assumption on something without knowing what a story or an article is about. Just be careful next time.
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