Come on, @boyle, are you trying to get the thread locked? You could stop it yourself or are you trying to get that personality puppet reported so you can bring a new one to life? I don't understand you sometimes...
I will lock it for now since you refuse to behave like a gentleman...maybe you'll go make another thread to be silly on.
"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen..."
The Watchtower uses their generations theory but throws out the Greek definition of the word...
"3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage)."
https://biblehub.com/greek/1074.htm
"A whole multitude" is the point. Of the whole multitude of God's name people who are alive during the beginning of the great tribulation, when religion is attacked, some will survive that attack. They will not all pass away in that attack.
Jesus was talking to people who were among God's name people at the time. They were going to face great tribulation when the Romans attacked. He wanted them to know that faithful ones among them would survive, and the same today. God's name people will be attacked when the religious institutions are attacked by the nations at the beginning of the "appointed times of the nations" aka "time times and half a time" or "3 1/2 years". The current way the organization operates is about to be dissolved.
"Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion..."
Love will remain. Truth will remain. The business parts will be gone. The Pharisee parts will be gone.
The "holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion" are not necessarily quantifiable things you write down on a field service report, or a meeting attendance report. The holy acts of conduct are showing love in the way that Jesus commanded, without hypocrisy.
First of all. Thanks for the sentiments in the previous post. I don't plan to focus much on things said here anymore, so you're right that it isn't really going to matter much whether those details about 2016 are explained to me or not.
I've read what the editors of "DTIB" have said about genealogy and it's easy to understand. I also understand what it says about "generations" in those pages you referenced and in other parts of this same "Bible Dictionary." Also, I know that if someone did a search on the term "overlapping generations" among all the Bible commentaries and Bible dictionaries, the term almost never comes up at all except in this particular one: "Dictionary for Theological Interpretation of the Bible" (DTIB). And it only happens on page 244, the first page you quoted. Yes, it's "cool" and "unique" that someone can find a person with academic credentials who used the term "overlapping generations" but its very use here undermines the Watchtower teaching instead of helping to support it.
The problem, of course, is that the editor you recommended here (pp. 244-246), doesn't really believe the Bible's genealogies are trustworthy and accurate as actual genealogies. He prefers to see many of them as unhistorical. But that's typical of modern critical commentaries. However, he quotes Rendsburg who actually does argue that the genealogies of the Pentateuch are reliable and historical. And in that paragraph, he uses the phrase: "overlapping generations." He says that:
Rendsburg "has based his conclusions in part on the observable pattern of overlapping generations so that people of the same age need not be of the same generation."
But it's quite easy to see that this goes completely against what the Watchtower publications have tried to say about generations. In fact, it directly opposes what the Watchtower publications say.
The Watchtower publications NEVER use the expression "overlapping generations" with respect to the generation teaching, because our current teaching is the opposite. Our teaching is that even persons of widely different ages NEED to be part of the SAME GENERATION because Jesus said that "THIS GENERATION" (not "these generations") would not pass away. Our current teaching is that almost all of the people in the first part of the generation do not need to have their lives overlap with most of the people in the second part of that same generation. In fact, our current teaching is supposed to work out even if only ONE person among the thousands in that first part has a lifespan that overlaps with at least ONE person in the second part of that SAME generation. The infamous Splane chart even mentions the possibility that this ONE person might be, using a known example: Brother Frederick W. Franz. If FWF was indeed the last living person from the first group, then his lifespan, in the end, would only need to have overlapped with ONE remaining person from the second part of that same generation by the time the end of this system arrives. Our definition of the current teaching could allow for this even if that overlap had happened for only a few seconds and the overlapping person in the second group had never met or even known about FWF while FWF was alive. And then, by definition, this ONE GENERATION Jesus spoke of can only go on for as long as at least that ONE person from the second group, is still alive.
That might sound complex and I'm using an extreme example. But it's an example that fits the current teaching.
I'm personally not too concerned with whether this teaching is going to hold true, time-wise. It very well might. If it does, I don't think it's necessary that it was because the teaching was right. It could just be a coincidence if the end of this system comes tomorrow.
One reason I'm not too concerned is just based on the very nature of speculative teachings. If the teaching is now correct, then this means that it is the "truth." Yet, if someone believed and promoted this "truth" back in 2004, for example, then it would have been an apostate teaching at that time. Speculative teachings are always this way: they could be an apostate teaching, then a true teaching, then they might become an apostate teaching again in the near future.
I'm not saying the Watchtower is wrong. But I'm not personally concerned with our more speculative teachings. And this one is the kind that creates a range of dates, which, to my conscience, goes against what Jesus and Paul said about not needing anything to be written to us about the times and seasons. These things are in the Father's jurisdiction, not ours.
We should be more concerned with what type of person we ought to be knowing that the end could come at any time.
(Speaking of dimes, didn't Joan Jett sing "Put another dime in the jukebox baby!")
I like music. Do you like music, @boyle?
Here are three songs that use the word "world" in an easy to understand way, just like how Jesus used the word "world" in an easy to understand way. He said even a kid could understand the truth, so it's not surprising that popular songs would capture the appropriate utilization of the word
Quotes from some of the lyrics...
"It's all over and I'm standing pretty
In this dust that was a city
If I could find a souvenir
Just to prove the world was here..."
The "world" that was destroyed in the song wasn't just politicians. It was a way of life. "World" has to do with a particular way of life.
It's a wild world right now.
"But just remember there's a lot of bad and beware
Oh baby baby it's a wild world
And it's hard to get by just upon a smile..."
The word "world" here is synonymous with badness. Satan's world is bad.
Here's another one...
"It's hard to beat the system
When we're standing at a distance
So we keep waiting on (waiting)
Waiting on the world to change..."
Here "world" is the wicked system of things. We too are waiting on the world to change, with God's kingdom to rule in peace and love.
Jesus' words "they are no part of the world" are not complicated. Even a kid can understand what they mean. The Pharisees and scribes like to make up rules and make things complicated. Jesus wasn't making up a new rule or a code of conduct in that phrase. He already told us what the rule was: "You must love one another, as I have loved you, love one another."💞
Oh, don't be sorry about that. I don't know why you got your hopes up. I already knew those things - maybe your expectations were too high? I told you am low and like a kid inside. You can't expect too much from somebody like that, @boyle, come on.😆
"Honest words are not painful!
But what benefit can be found in your reproof?
Are you scheming to reprove my words,
A desperate man’s sayings, which the wind blows away?
You would also cast lots over an orphan
And sell your own friend!"
(Job 6:25-27)
There have been trialsome times when I have had "desperate sayings", but that is not how I feel at present.
Would you consider yourself a bit of a desperado, @boyle?
"You've been out ridin' fences for so long now.
Oh, you're a hard one, but I know that you got your reasons...
It may be rainin', but there's a rainbow above you."
"I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."
(John 17:14-16)
Some information on "the world" from Strong's Concordance showing that "the world" does not mean specifically "politics" in the original language. The opposite of being "worldly" is not being "neutral". The opposite of being "worldly" is being "godly" or "positive towards the cause of the Christ" (the cause of the Christ is Love)...
https://biblehub.com/greek/2889.htm
2889. kosmos ►
Strong's Concordance
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: order, the world
Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
HELPS Word-studies
2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.
[The English term "cosmetic" is derived from 2889 /kósmos, i.e. the order ("ensemble") used of treating the face as a whole.
6. "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου 1 Corinthians 2:12; ἡ σοφία τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, 1 Corinthians 1:20 (here G L T Tr WH omit τούτου); 1 Corinthians 3:19. (τά στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου, Galatians 4:3; Colossians 2:8, 20 (see 5 above, and στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4).)
(Just a note, the screenshots are from today - the "shepherding call" was from a couple of years ago and the reference material on the w-o-l has changed, so the same article isn't there linked for the verse. But I showed the same article I was talking about that used to be there, as well as how another different article from the same year that is still linked to another verse near there, just to show the point - that the guys got mad about a comment from their own Watchtower material.)
To go along with this, voting wasn't even a concept for the regular jews back in Jesus's time.
Since boyle is terribly naive, when a person votes they are not really voting for a person, but what that person believes is right or represents. For example I myself and a more middle of the road conservative, I believe abortion is murder and is wrong so I am going to vote for a candidate who believes the same way and will use their influence to end abortions. Or believe in diplomacy over war, being a good steward of the taxes we pay, etc.
I'm glad the jw version of the paradise isn't going to happen, I couldn't imagine the dictatorship of the governing body would go over very well with Jesus.
Being "no part of the world" means not acting like Satan, who is hateful and likes to lord it over others in a mean way.
Jehovah isn't like them. I am one of Jehovah's witnesses. Jehovah is my Shepherd. A shepherd of Jehovah doesn't act like those guys act.
"Jehovah is my Shepherd. I will lack nothing.
In grassy pastures he makes me lie down;
He leads me to well-watered resting-places.
He refreshes me.
He leads me in the paths of righteousness for the sake of his name.
Though I walk in the valley of deep shadow, I fear no harm,
For you are with me;
Your rod and your staff reassure me.
You prepare a table for me before my enemies.
You refresh my head with oil;
My cup is well-filled.
Surely goodness and loyal love will pursue me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of Jehovah for all my days."
(During the time period of the above shepherding call, Earl and Mary Jo and my husband repeatedly called DHHS and bore false witness against me so they could try to get custody of my children. It was a terrifying time, because the elders were backing the people hurting my family. Ruthanne, mentioned in the transcript, was a sister in M- congregation, and she and two other members of M- helped me since the elders wouldn't. The A- elders let Earl remain HLC coordinator and COBE of the A- congregation until he stepped down later of his own accord. Even though my children were baptized members of the congregation and witnesses to many of the events, the elders wouldn't accept their testimony.)
Okay, @boyle if you want "evidence" here is the transcript of a "shepherding call" done over Zoom. Some background on the people mentioned in the transcript...Jonah is an elder and was my group overseer in the M- congregation. Mark is another elder in the M- congregation. M- was the congregation I went to during the time my husband was on restraining order and he couldn't be in the same hall as me and the kids at the same time. Earl was the COBE in A- congregation at the time, which was the congregation I was in for about 20 years. My young son requested that I record this shepherding call since he knew the shepherding calls had been bad. During the one prior to this one, the CO yelled at me so loud that the kids heard him even though it was over Zoom and they were in the other room with the door closed watching cartoons. The elders didn't "yell" during this one. On another shepherding call after this one, there were three elders present, and I begged them to let a sister be present for my sake, but they said no.
Saturday, February 6, 2021 3:00 pm (transcribed from video recording)
Jonah: Hey, there.
Mark: Hey, Audrey.
Audrey: Hello.
...
[small talk and prayer]
all: Amen.
Audrey: Thank you.
Jonah: So, um, again, thank you for meeting with us. I know there's been a lot of Zoom meetings and stuff going back and forth so, ah, another meeting...it just takes time out of your day. We appreciate your time. And always understanding that all of these meetings are out of love. Jehovah gives us direction right from the scriptures, and that's why we want to talk to you. It's just that, out of love. You're our sister, and we care about you, about the kids.
So, let's, if we can, let's open with a scripture, okay? Let's take a look at Romans chapter 14, and we'll take a look at verse 19. And let me know when you have that.
Audrey: Yep.
Jonah: Okay. So verse 19 says, "So then, let us pursue the things making for peace, and things that build one another up." And I always love the example of the apostle Paul, promoting peace, things like that. That scripture came out of the October 2016 workbook. And I think we, when you first moved in I recommended that. I was like, "Take a look at it. It's a great article because it's about how to give good comments." And good comments being upbuilding, and things like that.
The reason we wanted to talk to you today, Audrey, is because of your comment on Tuesday. (laughs) It was um, it [inaudible] us back, okay?
Audrey: It was what?
Jonah: Because we're...you're comment on Tuesday kind of set us back a bit. Um, because we were talking about Leviticus 26:27.
Audrey: Uh-huh.
Jonah: And then your comment during the digging part, you started off in Leviticus, but then ended up in Jeremiah.
Audrey: Yeah.
Jonah: So we, we um...
Audrey: I have it.
Jonah: Okay.
Audrey: Ah, that was last week's meeting right?
Jonah: Right, this last week. So, the body talked and comments like that, I don't know where they come from, because that one, that was a pretty pointed comment.
Audrey: It was from the Watchtower?
Jonah: Mark.
Mark: It could be from the Watchtower, Audrey, but you know, I was sitting here alone, and sometimes those comments like that, it just felt, it can feel like someone's being attacked, whether it's an individual or the body of elders. It did sound like that to me. It was like, you know, where did that, where did that come from? I mean, everybody's entitled to their opinions, but we don't hear them sometimes if they're really pointed, if we really have a problem, we go to the person or...the comment did sound like it was attacking the body of elders. It did. I mean, in all actuality. From my point of you. And I wasn't sitting with anybody but myself.
Jonah: So, as a body, we felt like, "Wow, that was, again, that was really pointed." And not just pointed, Audrey, but it was also...it wasn't relevant with the material we were talking about.
Audrey: Do you...
Jonah: And I...
Audrey: Do you want me to read it again?
Jonah: What's...Yeah. If you have it written down.
Audrey: Because I'm not that good with commenting like straight out, so I usually write it down ahead of time, and I'll cut and paste it from the Watchtower. Um, so it was actually from the notes for Leviticus 26. It was one of the references in the notes from the w.o.l. um, for that verse? On, ah, on the Sabbath Law? But, anyway, it said: "In regard to God's Sabbath Law in Leviticus 26, Jeremiah denounced the God-dishonoring actions of the elders and religious leaders. Even when persecuted, Jeremiah kept preaching. Was this wise? Wouldn't it have been safer from him to be quiet and go along with things waiting to see the outcome? By speaking up, Jeremiah was taking the course of safety. He lived. The disobedient elders and religious leaders were destroyed. Today we imitate Jeremiah by obeying Jehovah and speaking out boldly against wickedness." And I think the reference, it's in, um, I have to click it. It would have been the reference that you can find for verse 2, but in the w-o-l, but not in the one on the app, but on the online one?
Jonah: And what article does that take you to?
Audrey: Um, it'll take me a second. Hold on. I'm slow, slow with my tablet. So, on w-o-l, Leviticus 26...
Mark: So my question to you, and you haven't even put the references in, and it was referenced, it just seems like, a lot of the comments are directed to this body, would you agree to that?
Audrey: Um, when I comment, like, the question, um, it says on the gems is, "What spiritual gems from this week's Bible reading would you like to share regarding Jehovah, the field ministry, or something else?" So before I do my Bible reading for the week, I pray to Jehovah about what I need, first of all, you know, first of all if there's something I need, that I can see if from the Bible reading, that encourages me, or helps me, or disciplines me, or whatever. And then I also pray if there's anything that I can share that's encouraging to others. But sometimes the thing that I'm sharing is something that was encouraging to me.
Mark: Right, so how would that be encouraging for anybody else? Taking it away from you, how would that encourage anybody else?
Audrey: Because...The question here says, "What spiritual gems would you like to share regarding your reading," though. Since it was encouraging, I shared it.
Mark: Encouraging for you?
Audrey: Yeah, because...
Mark: You know, did you, did you, did you just pick that one out because of your situation that you're dealing with, or how did you feel that that was encouraging, say to Jehovah, or to the field ministry? Like it says, right, or the...
Audrey: Well, I'm imagining it would have been encouraging to Jeremiah in his situation, so, um...we're going to be facing the hailstone message pretty soon, and we're going to have to preach to people, well, not preach anymore, it'll be a judgement message, to people in the world, um. And so it's good for the friends to be encouraged to be able to speak out against wickedness since very soon we're going to have to make that message.
Mark: I totally get that, but it sounds like the wickedness is against the elder body. That's the overriding theme, I thought. That you were speaking out against the elders, right? That's, that what Jeremiah did, and it seems like you're doing that. That's what it sounded like. So I'm just asking, where's the encouragement in that for the congregation, not just, even if I didn't take it, other people in the congregation could take it that way. And some did take it that way. So you know, the mistrust on the elder body is there. So how is that encouraging? It might be encouraging to you, but where is the encouragement, you know, to Jehovah, the ministry, or what? Where was the encouragement for the congregation? Did you understand that, or?
Audrey: I don't really know what you're asking me.
Mark: Where was, where was, where was the encouragement. What was the encouragement we were getting out of that when you made that comment, that just like Jeremiah stood up against the badness of the elders, we need to do the same, how is that encouraging to the congregation? I mean, you know, I get the message is going to be harsh down the road, but do you really think everybody took it that way that took it that they didn't know that you meant that that's, you didn't mention that judgement message, hailstone message. You just said, when the elders do something bad, we stand up for it like Jeremiah. How is that encouraging?
Audrey: Well, we only have 30 seconds for our comment, so I try to time my comment beforehand so it doesn't go over 30 seconds.
Jonah: So when it comes to comments, Audrey, things like that, we might find things that are personally encouraging. This is, you know, but we also have to keep in mind building one another up, like Mark said. It has to, it should be encouraging. There are going to be times in the future that the message that we send to, not our brothers and sisters, but those who don't know Jehovah yet, right? That's going to be the hailstone message. That's going to be those pronouncements of judgement. In the meantime, especially...and hopefully you can understand, from our perspective, a comment like that in context with everything that's been happening for the last several months, when a comment like that is made, and especially, like I said, a lot of this is just being done out of love, because we're thinking, "Let me rethink that. What was the comment? What was the scripture? What was, what was the context?"
You know, we were thinking that about that over and over, like, please, this is...Was that a pointed comment towards the, the disobedient elders? As we've mentioned right?
Audrey: Right. That's I mean...
Jonah: So.
Audrey: Do you want me to, do you want me to, I didn't finish finding the article. Do you want me to find it?
Jonah: Um, I can, if it's on the, if it's on the online web, I can look for that. That's no problem.
Audrey: Yeah. I think, I think it's from the reference near the end of chapter 26, when he's talking about, um, what Jehovah would do if the Sabbath's were not listened to? Like...
Jonah: So, yeah. When it's the body, that's one thing, because we're thinking, and people will say things, will say things to the body, and we'll talk about it amongst ourselves and find the scriptural, ah, background, you know, behind it. But when it gets into the congregation and it upsets people, because we got several calls regarding that. Like, "Hey, that comment, what was that about? What's going on?" What's, do you know a word that, to describe that situation? Mark.
Mark: So, what I was saying, you know, if we had...There's new people in the congregation, that they're studying. Again, what kind of message does that send to someone new in the congregation. You know, what, in all actuality, what Sabbaths are we not adhering to? You know what I'm saying?
Audrey: Well, well, I guess...
Mark: It just makes it sound like we're not following, you know, we're not following direction, or something, something's wrong here. That's, a person could think that, there's something wrong.
Audrey: So if, if there's like, something wrong that goes on in the congregation, and if there were elders that didn't, you know, that supported it or allowed it or condoned it, then, you know...
Mark: We would want to leave that in Jehovah's hands because it would be dis- ...this is Jesus' congregation and, I mean, I could get into a story (laughs) you know, like what I went through personally, Audrey, you know what I'm saying? Um, not to mention any names, but, I went through a lot and I thought, "Oh, man, I'm going to fix the problems in this congregation." You know, I thought I actually got a little presumptuous. But you know something, um, I didn't take into account, ah, the spirituality of my wife at the time, how it damaged her, and damaged myself. I became angry, even my mother, who's not in the truth, saw the anger that was coming out in me. What I had to come to realize, it was actually a substitute C.O., that I was being presumptuous because I said, "I'm going to straighten this out here. (laughs) I'm going to see this straightened out." And what, you know, in the whole situation, again, not to name names, I wound up being removed, the person that I was so angry with didn't, and you know something? It was the right thing. But I didn't go and make comments like, "Oh, oh, they didn't know what they were doing!" My friends came up to me, and a lot of friends came up to me, and felt my, my grief. I just told them, I just kept doing, kept my spiritual routine up, and I said, "Listen to the brothers."
And you know something, it eventually...the moral of the story is, you leave it in Jehovah's hands. He didn't need me to take care of it. It'll get taken care of. It might take awhile. It got taken care of. And I had to learn that, and I had to learn the hard way, Audrey. You know what I mean? But I had to leave it in Jehovah's hands, and it got taken care of. Okay? It got taken care of nicely. But I also learned, I humbled myself and I learned. I learned. But I kept my spiritual routine. But I didn't attack the brothers. I told the friends to support them. It'll all work out. And it did. It did. It did. And so, we're just trying to say, just keep being upbuilding with your comments. You know what I'm saying? Don't try to, don't, don't get in a position where you're trying to attack. We're here for you. We're here for you. We're here for your family. We love you. We love you in our congregation. We want you here. And you know, we learned something, I have to mention, in elders school. One elder or two elders, it doesn't mean anything. But a body of elders, and they, and this comes right from the society, it's a pretty powerful entity, because we represent Jesus Christ the head of the congregation, and eventually Jehovah. Hey, we're not per-, we're not perfect. We're imperfect. But as a body, when we pray for you and your family, which we do, we are, we want it to work out, we want you here, but we want it done the right way. And we are just asking your cooperation in that, and trust in Jesus. He knows everything is being taken care of. Just, you have to trust. And that's what we're asking you to do. We're praying. We're not here to attack you. We aren't, Audrey. We want your family here. We love you guys. And that's what we're trying to come across.
Audrey: So...
Mark: And how do you feel about that?
Audrey: Um, I'm glad you want me here. I'm glad you pray for us. That makes me happy.
Mark: Yeah.
Audrey: Um, so, should I, should I have my comments checked by you before I can make them?
Mark: No, we're not saying that at all, Audrey. But you, you know yourself, ah, maybe you...What, maybe you didn't have an ulterior motive. Maybe you did. I don't know. You only know. I can't, I'm not, no one's accusing you. But what we're asking you to keep your comments upbuilding, just upbuilding for everybody. Instead of tearing down. Because that, that could be perceived as tearing down. You might not have meant it that way. But it can be perceived that way. Could you, can you see that?
Audrey: I...on a previous shepherding call, I was told not to talk to my friends about stuff. And so, I was also told not to email people. Um, so now I feel like I'm being told not to comment without permission. I, I...
Mark: You're taking that wrong. You're taking that wrong. What we're telling you to do is just be upbuilding. That's all.
Audrey: So if I, if I think, if I pray to Jehovah, and I think that the material, it's from the Watchtower, and it's from the Bible, and I've prayed, I've prepared my comment, obviously maybe I have, maybe, what my idea of upbuilding is different than other people. So maybe I should run it by you first?
Mark: No, (laughs) we're not asking that. You know that wouldn't be proper. We're not asking that. We're asking you to keep it upbuilding. But, when the comments are continually, maybe it sounds like it's going after somebody, you, I think you can make a lot better comment being upbuilding. Because you're an upbuilding kind of person. Wouldn't you agree?
Audrey: I, I don't, I feel like, the brothers, I mean, if you feel that...If you don't feel like it applies to you, then it shouldn't feel like it's attacking you?
Jonah: Well, the, when preparing comments, because like you said, it's great that you pray to Jehovah, and for direction on what comment, right? There's a difference between something that applies to me personally, and I'm going to work on that. Or, this applies to my situation, right? It doesn't mean you have to announce that to the congregation either. Um, the question we should ask when we share in the spiritual discussion: how will this comment upbuild, encourage, motivate, and incite to love and fine works? That's the whole point of the meetings, right, to learn and to motivate one another? How will this do that? And, again, out of love, thinking, like, like Mark said, I remember that point from elders school, that the body of elders is a very strong entity because it has Jehovah's holy spirit. We're all thinking, how, where does that fit in? And we understand. We understand in your scenario, where you'd say, we have to keep talking, because as has been brought out multiple times, in emails or whatever, you've, you've voiced your concern that situations have not been dealt with in a proper, in a proper manner. We're not going to get into that. Commenting though is to encourage the congregation. It shouldn't be a, it's not a soapbox. Right? It's not saying, I have this problem now, and everyone needs to know what's going on. That's not proper.
If we think about the, let's, let's look at another scripture. Ah, 1 Corinthians 14. And I, I know you're familiar with these scriptures. In 1 Corinthians 14, it's 14:33 and 40. And these are very serious scriptures, um, obviously with this topic in mind, okay. In verse 33 it says: "For God is a god, not of disorder, but of peace." And then verse 40, "Let all things take place decently and by arrangement." I mean, you've read that, those scriptures before. But when we think about with commenting in mind, we want our comments to be peaceful. Where there's peace, that's an attractive quality to our brothers and sisters. That's a motivating quality to our brothers and sisters. But if there's a lot of comments that, as verse 40 says, "let all things take place decently and by arrangement," if things aren't being done decently and by arrangement, then we might have to take other steps.
For instance, there was a visitor, hmm, years ago. Very disruptive to the congregation. He showed up, ah, to a couple of meetings. Ended up being disruptive, his comments had been stopped. He was, he had comments. At first, they were on topic. And then they started getting pointed. And then he was no longer called on. After that, it got even more disruptive, and he was removed. And just showing that commenting is a privilege. It's a privilege, and it's a way to praise Jehovah. It's a way to encourage, like we've said. But it's also a privilege that can be revoked as well. So, we're not saying that you have, we're not saying that you need us to proofread or have your, your comments approved. That's, that's not by arrangement either, like Mark said. But when we have personal study, how would this comment encourage, how would this be a loving gesture, how can a be a faithful, how can I be an example to the faithful ones with my comments?
Audrey: So, I guess some of the people at the meeting, like you said, are aware of the situation. They're aware that the brother currently serving as the HLC overseer in the area has physically struck me and some things which would be considered sexual abuse by people who work for, um, DHS, people are aware of that. Including my children, and several other people in the congregation? So, by commenting and saying that, anyone who's an elder who is wicked, Jehovah will take care of it, and that's related to the scriptures, and it's quoted from an article in the Watchtower. I don't find that to be attacking the body of elders. I find that to be honest words from Jehovah. Um, his foundation of his throne is on justice. And so to comment on justice in the congregation...the purpose of commenting in the congregation isn't just to encourage one another. That's part of it. But it's also to praise Jehovah, the God of truth and justice. So, I feel that that comment was praising Jehovah in a manner in harmony with his will.
Jonah: Mark?
Mark: In the scriptures, even if we have a cause for complaint, and obviously you have a cause for complaint, we're still supposed to be forgiving, as hard as that is. And, do you believe that it's being handled properly through the channel? Do you, do you, let me ask you firstly, first, do you have faith in this body in Monmouth to handle things correctly?
Audrey: Um, I have forgiven Earl and Mary Jo. In fact, if I hadn't forgiven them, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to be at peace with myself and with them and with Jehovah. Um, as far as how the brothers handle things, that, it, that's between you guys and Jehovah. I can't see what goes on when I'm not there. So, I have faith in Jehovah, and I have faith in Jesus, and I have faith in the faithful slave, and I have faith in the arrangement. So I know that it will work out, and when I comment on something, it's not to attack people. Um, I'm expressing my confidence in the fact that I know Jehovah sees when there is evil, whether it be in a publisher or on the elder body or anywhere, and so by expressing my confidence in that, I think that is encouraging to people who also know what's going on, and who also, you know, have faith in Jehovah.
Mark: But it gets seen, it's, it seems to be...I know what you're saying on one hand. And so, peop-, we all know you situation, obviously, on the body. And other people do. And we sympathize with that. But we don't have to hear how we should handle a certain situation. I think we know you said you had confidence in that. But your, your comments, Audrey, they do seem to have a theme, that theme (laughs) injustice. You don't have to do that theme. What we're asking you, maybe pick another theme (laughs) that's little bit more encouraging. Because everybody, there's enough bad in the world, you could say. You know, and for you to say that you have confidence, too, in the branch, or the way things are being handled, it still, there's still a thorn in your side, it seems, because it has been handled. Maybe not the way that we all want. Not, it's not always done the way that we want. Neither was my situation, or whatever. But it's being done the proper way, through the channels. And it'll continue to be handled through the channels. But we don't need any more disruptive, and that's what we're just asking, don't, we don't need you on top of a soapbox saying, you know, if you're being being abused or if you're, if something's wrong, we will handle it as a body. We will. Jehovah will see to it. We will handle it. But, but we're, it just seems like that's your theme, and I understand it's deep rooted. I do. We get that. But, maybe change your theme. You know what I mean?
The friends, if there's encouragement to be given, or needs to be given in that area, we as a body of elders might think it's a local needs part and we'll do that. But, you know what I'm saying? Can you understand what I'm saying? It does seem to be a theme coming from you, you know, that...you realize that?
Audrey: I, Jehovah is a god of justice, and also of love, and also of wisdom, and also of power, so if we comment on any of his four cardinal attributes, it only goes in harmony with what we know about him.
Mark: I, I get that. I get that. But because you've let a lot of people know and your situation, those comments seem to be geared a certain way. It doesn't mean, and it seems to be more justice. We know Jehovah's just. Everybody knows that. But it just seems like, um, and you know it's like, oh, woe is me, and we understand that. We do sympathize. But do you get that? It just seems to be a theme. It just seems to be a running theme with your comments. Do you, would you agree to that?
Audrey: No. Um...
Mark: You don't? You don't think you're leaning towards that? That way?
Audrey: I love Jehovah. And when I comment...
Mark: We all love Jehovah.
Audrey: I comment, when I comment, I comment for Jehovah. So I do my research, and I meditate, and then I take the Watchtower reference in particular, and I try to shrink it down to 30 seconds so that it doesn't disrupt, taking up too much time. I don't talk about anyone in particular. I talk about, I take the message that's in the Watchtower and I make it shorter so, I mean...
Mark: So but somebody could, someone could take that personally, wouldn't you say?
Audrey: If someone...
Mark: That comment that you made Tuesday, you said if, like, it wasn't directed towards me, but I felt it. So, but, is it wrong for me to feel that?
Audrey: That's...
Mark: When I don't have anything to hide? You're, you're trying to say that if you're making a comment like that, and it, and I'm not doing anything wrong it shouldn't affect me. It does affect me. It affected me because even if it was geared on someone else on the body, as a body we're unified. We're a congregation. We're trying to get over being disruptive. We, we, we dealt with that for years. We, we're trying to get close and stay close now. You know, we had it bad for a lot of years (laughs) and we're, but we feel really really good about our congregation and we want to keep it that way. Can you understand that?
Audrey: All of Jehovah's people should be together that way.
Mark: Right. Right. We should feel, we should feel that way.
Jonah: So...
Mark: Are...
Jonah: I'm sorry, Mark. I was going to say, so our concern primarily was because of the nature of it, again, the body knowing, if, if the body, amongst the body, we would say something amongst us. What was concerning was that the comment seemed to have more of a divisive effect amongst the congregation, and that's where our concern is. When we have, we get people, just calling different elders and saying, what was that about? Did you notice this? This also, again, when we think about it, how would this encourage? How would this motivate someone to join in the field ministry? I'm not saying, we're not taking anything away. We all know that Jehovah is love. We know that that love is what guides his jus-, what guides his power, what guides his wisdom. We get that. We do. But especially with a lot of the, um, what do you call it, sorry, I lost my word. The communication going, no matter what medium. If it's a, the emails, or within different shepherding calls, things like that. Everything in context, it seemed like an attack, and again, with a lot of people, you had let a lot of people know what's going on. Things like that, that shows that there might be, and we're not speculating, but there could be possibly some kind of stance against the body of elders. And that's something like Mark said, the body has been working for years on trying to be united because Satan's world is very divisive. So when we have our comments, how can we...we can say whatever we want, we can. Um, 1 Corinthians 10, "all things are lawful" we can do whatever we want. But not all things build up. So that's again, when you take a Watchtower article, is it in context, and yeah, you found a scripture in the weekly reading, took that Watchtower article, shrunk it down to 30 seconds. That's great. But we've been talking about, we have been talking about this one comment for over a half an hour. And how it affected just us. But there's also other people who've been affected too, not built up, not encouraged. But afraid. Mark?
Mark: And then, Audrey, if you send emails to people, and try to tell them that so-and-so doesn't like me and somebody's doing this or someone is doing that, and they're on the body, personally, and then you make a comment like that, how do you think that the people in the congregation are going to take that?
Audrey: I guess you need to clarify that more, I don't really know what you are saying.
Mark: If you send an email to somebody that's saying somebody made a comment that they don't like, they don't like, say it was an elder. You, you, and you sent out an email, you know, making it sound like they're not doing this right, or they're not, they're not handling this right, or they said this, or they said that. And then you make a comment like that against the elders, like Jeremiah, standing up for injustice, how do you think the people that you sent those emails to, how do you think, what do you think how they're interpreting that?
Audrey: I don't know what you're talking about, Mark. You have to be more specific.
Mark: Have you sent emails to friends that, commenting to them that so, certain people don't like you?
Audrey: Not really. I've talked to my friends specifically about Earl hurting me, and I've had Ruthanne ask me how things went on a call specifically. But...
Mark: Yeah.
Audrey: I mean, I can print off for you what I sent to her if you want. I don't talk bad about the elders. If there's someone doing something bad, I will report it to someone. So, if that someone is on the elder body, if that someone is at Bethel, if that someone is a circuit overseer, I'm going to, I mean, I'm going to report to the authorities. I do have friends, so when I have talked to people like Judy before, Judy knew me when I was in Auburn, back before when I first came in the truth. Um, and she knew some of the details about Earl and Mary Jo in my relationship with them before. So with people who knew me before ask me how Earl and Mary Jo are, or if they ask me something about that and I say, no, I'm not, we had something sketchy happen, um, you know.
Again, we talked before, and some of the brothers told me not to send emails to my friends. So I don't know if I need to, like, have you edit my messages before I send them to people, or if I'm not allowed to talk to people about the things that go on in my life. It's, it's getting to that point where I'm like, "Am I allowed to talk, or do I have to ask permission first?" Um.
Mark: It's the detail, it's the details that you send about your life that people probably shouldn't know, because things are being handled by certain things.
Audrey: I...
Mark: Like your husband, like your husband. No one should know the details on that except like an elder body and you personally. To send that out in an email to people that really have no right to know that. You know?
Audrey: So, I guess, who specifically do you mean that I share details with that I shouldn't? Because if I know, then I'll know what you're talking about more clearly. But if you're generic, it's hard for me to know what you're saying.
Mark: Well, you sent, you sent one to my wife.
Audrey: Yep.
Mark: Okay.
Audrey: I...
Mark: With details, wait a minute! And she came back to you that she was going to pray for you but she didn't need to know the details of what your husband did, because that's being handled judicially, see what I'm saying? But now that she knows, that's not fair to your husband. So that's what I'm saying. When you send out emails, you send out details, they know there's trouble, and sometimes if you can slant it like it's not being handled right, certain situations, that's not being generic, then everybody says, wait, what's going on here? What's going on here? Nothing's being handled.
Audrey: So with Donna, Donna is your wife, and I view you as one of the, on the body of elders, as a mature man, and I view her as a mature woman. So, when I decided to send it to Donna, it's because I was looking for help as a mother figure, because I view Donna that way. I trust her, we, she's in the ministry. I view her, I mean, I hear her comments at the Kingdom Hall and I look up to her. So I wasn't try to like share details with random people on facebook. When I picked Donna, it's because I trust her, and I need someone, because when I told the brothers that my husband committed adultery and his girlfriend contacted me, I really didn't get a shepherding call or anyone comforting me. So I was looking to a sister that I could trust to comfort me. And I thought Donna might be somebody that would do that. And if I didn't tell, I didn't think she'd go sharing all the details with everyone. I do love my husband. I do respect him, and I do not want everybody under the sun to know everything, and I didn't expect that Donna would tell everybody. I thought she could keep a confidence, so that's why I chose, I was looking to her for help.
Mark: She didn't tell everybody, but I read it and she...
Audrey: Well, I figured she would share it with you.
Mark: Yeah.
Audrey: But I just mean, that's why I chose Donna and not, you know, and so...
Mark: But do you see what I'm saying, it just seems just like there's an overriding theme here. (laughs)
Jonah: So, we, like Mark said, we understand that you're going through a lot. We do. And that's an understatement. We understand that it's always on your mind. COVID doesn't help either. Right? Because we have nothing else to do, except for service, to keep our minds occupied. But when it comes to, it's just a request. We're not going to edit. We're not going to censor, we're not going to revise or whatever, tell you, but it's a suggestion as the, as the article brought up - be upbuilding.
What I like to think is upbuilding might not be, um, what's the word, relevant to the discussion that we're having. That might be a one-on-one conversation. But again, when it starts disrupting the congregation, that's when we're concerned. So, none of the elders, whenever we give a talk, we never have any kind of personal background on something. And we don't, we don't put that in our agenda, right? We follow, the Watchtower conductor follows the outline in the Watchtower, the public speaker follows the outline for the public talk. And that's what we follow. And that is all upbuilding and encouraging.
We're just asking that you just watch what you say. And we would, we would recommend that to anyone as well. And we have, too. People who have pointed comments, we go to them and say, "Are you okay?" (laughs) We have regular communication and we know, again, what you're going through. But something like that, it raises, it, it's a caution to just change on what we talk about and what we discuss. Mark, did you have something?
Mark: Yep, it, it, it's something like, Audrey, you can pray for your comment to be good, and no one's telling you what to say, but we know about Jehovah's justice, but are there other things you could be upbuilding about? Of course there are. We have a, we have a ton of people in our congregation that, frankly saying, are dying, right before our very faces. You know. We've got several that are on the brink of dying. Maybe they can use encouragement about endurance. Maybe even if you had your situation and geared it towards endurance or something. You don't have to always be about justice or misjustice or, you hear what I'm saying? You hear what I'm saying, kind of? Be upbuilding. Gear it towards another way, that's all. Just a, just a suggestion.
Audrey: I write a lot of personal cards to people, that's part of what the kids and I try to do. And so I do, you know, try to do that on a personal level for the, especially the older ones in the congregation. We write them letters, and we make it encouraging and personal...
Mark: That's commendable.
Audrey: So usually when I'm doing my comment for praising Jehovah, I'm focusing more on Jehovah and my relationship with him, in praising him in the congregation. Um, but, I do think about the friends a lot and pray about them a lot.
Mark: All of us want to gear, his biggest attribute is what, love, right? So we want to love one another, all of us. And even though things aren't perfect, and we're imperfect men, and we acknowledge that, there are things that we have cause for complaint, as the scriptures say. All of us have gone through it. But, right? We're going to kill it with love, more love. That's all we can do, you know? And a lot of things won't be right this side of Armageddon. They're just not going to be. But, again, just to keep the unity, we just want to keep displaying love among one another. That's what we want to do.
Audrey: But I know we also have to show love for Jehovah's name. And sometimes something's not the popular course, but if it's showing love for Jehovah's name above all else, that's important, too.
Mark: And what, what what, what are you saying? What exactly are you talking about? Like, that's kind of generic. Give me something, what would be an attack on Jehovah's name?
Audrey: Um, allowing something reproachful to continue inside the circuit.
Mark: Well, why should that...
Jonah: Well, we already...
Mark: Why should that be your, your concern, if you're relying, if you're relying on, on, on the chain of command, branch, all the way down?
Audrey: Because...
Mark: Why would that be your concern?
Audrey: Because I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Mark: (laughs) I get that. I get that. But you don't think it's going to be handled? You see an injustice, there's a lot of injustices in the circuit. You've got to rely on Jehovah. If your love is for Jehovah, and you've got to know he sees everything. It'll be handled, right? But we don't have to get on a soapbox. It'll be handled. I mean, certain situa-, for 14 years, certain things will straighten out will take a lot of years. Right? But we have to leave it in Jehovah's hands. Not on our timetable, right, wouldn't you say?
Audrey: Well, leaving things in Jehovah's hands doesn't imply necessarily silence if there's something going on that needs to be reported. So, like in Jeremiah's case, Jeremiah knew Jehovah was going to take care of matters in time, but he didn't stop preaching, and he didn't, whatever his, you know, in his case, what his assignment was was different than mine or anyone else's. So we, as individuals, have to, you know, pray to Jehovah, look at our own circumstance, and look at the research and follow the direction of the faithful slave. Though in my case, I'm not an elder, so it's not my job to do what you guys do, um, but you know, I have my...
Mark: You have your own opinion, but do you think you make our job any easier by continuing to do, what you're going to do, whatever you're seeing here in the circuit that you think what you don't think is being done right, where is the confidence in this elder body? Or where is the confidence on the circuit level? Or on the branch level? If you continually, it seems to be continually, don't think things are being handled correctly, where is the confidence? How do I feel confident in that? Where, where do I get confidence in that?
Audrey: It's, it's Jehovah's opinion that's important, not my opinion. But, as far as confidence, the brothers make these arrangements for field service, for the meetings, for distribution of literature, for distribution of food when we have the food boxes, for teaching the congregation, for shepherding the sheep. So all of those, those, those organizational jobs that you guys do, you know, that's, that's from Jehovah, and so we support that. And I support that wholeheartedly. Just like...
Mark: Yeah, but, it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem that way when you keep speaking out. Because your making it sound like you have to speak out about the injustice where you're not showing confidence in Jehovah, who has a channel of command, Jesus Christ head of the congregation, who he has the elders in his hand, and we get direction from the faithful slave how to handle these, these things, and you're not showing confidence, it doesn't sound like, in that chain...you're saying you believe in Jehovah, that we're doing this and this, yeah, I can give out food, but we're also in Jesus hands to take things on if something's not being done right. But I don't see your confidence in that. You say you trust in Jehovah, but Jehovah's chain of command starts locally in the elder body. Would you agree with that?
Audrey: If I quote a piece of the Watchtower in my comment, then I feel I am showing confidence in Jehovah's chain of command.
Mark: No, you're not. No. You, you're missing the whole thing. Where is your confidence in the chain of command to handle the situations that you think aren't being handled right?
Audrey: Well, that's why I'm meeting with you right now. If I didn't have confidence in the chain of command, I wouldn't have met with you. So I do have confidence in the chain of command, that's why I'm here.
Mark: Yes, but not by your comments, Audrey. It seems to be pointing the fingers that it's not being handled right at the elder body. It's coming across that way. And so, you can say whatever you want to say that you think you pray about it in your comments and you have faith in Jehovah. If you had faith in Jehovah, you would back the arrangement that he has in place. You need to do that. Can you see that?
Audrey: I don't feel that I'm not backing Jehovah or his arrangement. I, I do support his arrangement.
Mark: Can you, can you just say that again? You just said, what did you just say at the beginning?
Audrey: Okay. I don't feel that I'm not supporting Jehovah. I do feel that I am supporting his arrangement.
Mark: How do you feel that, though? Do you really think that we feel trusted by you, or have confidence by your comments? Do you feel like that we feel like you have confidence in us?
Audrey: I can't change how you, I can't...
Mark: Would you honestly say that?
Audrey: I don't know how you feel except for what you say. I, I can't control how you feel and I wouldn't want to try to. I, that's not my job to control anybody or to tell them how to feel or not feel or what to say or not say. Jehovah gives us free, and so you're going to feel how you feel and that's okay. Um, I'm you're sister, and I'm going to be your Christian sister and...
Mark: I understand that, but if you keep making comments (laughs) like you did Tuesday. How is, how is that making me feel, I want, I want to make you feel good. You're my sister. I'm you're brother. Don't you want to make me feel...How are you making me feel good if you keep commenting like that against, it sounds like, the elders? That's what it comes across as. And I'm not the only one. I mean, that's the overall, you know, people are, are taking it that way. So don't you think, well if they're taking it that way, you can't turn around and say, oo! They're taking it that way, I can't, I can't, I'm not responsible for what they feel, if they, if a, if a large part of the congregation feels that way, Audrey, you should take note of that, don't you think?
Audrey: My husband attacked me one night, and he felt that I didn't love him. Now, my actions showed I loved him, because I sat right here in this chair next to us, and I just sat still and I didn't talk back while he screamed at me abuses for hours. Um, on another occasion, he attacked me and the police came and took him away. He can tell people day and night that I don't love him. But I love that man so much that I forgave him when he committed adultery against me. I love that man. And I love you, Mark, and I love you, Jonah. So you may not feel that I love you. I can't change that. But I can keep just going to meetings and doing what I feel that Jehovah is telling me to do through the faithful and discreet slave, through the organization, through the meetings, keep doing the ministry, keep taking care of my kids. And someday you'll know how much I love you.
Jonah: So what, like I said, what we wanted to, we, I know you keep talking round and around and we just want to bring our concerns to you regarding that comment. So and how, how the reaction was towards that. So we want to let you know about that. We wanted to kind of share with you also those scriptures, just to keep in mind peace, maintaining order, um, being encouraging and upbuilding. And you know what? It's, it is, it has been said that when it comes to the ministry, you guys are upbuilding. You guys are there everyday, from what I hear. I'm not there every day. Um, and when, and when we hear something that's slightly off, like that, it perks our ears up, like what? What happened? So we just want you to, to be aware of, of that. Just consider our counsel, please. And, um, and, Mark?
Mark: And so, we're meeting with you totally out of love, Audrey. Totally. But at the same time, we want to be firm, too. That if the comments continue to be negative, if we perceive it that you continue to attack the body, your privileges of commenting can be, could be ended. We just want to make that clear. We're not saying that we're doing that. That they could be. We're just trying to tell you to be upbuilding. And we're doing this out of love. We truly do love you and your family. And I know you're going through, we're trying to move, move on, and we want you here, it's just. We want you to be aware of it. We just want to make you aware of it.
Audrey: Thank you for meeting with me.
Jonah: If we can, if I could say a prayer for all of us, okay?
"Does YouTube keep Deleted Videos?
Yes, YouTube keeps deleted videos and there are numerous ways to recover them. This includes Recovery tools that are used to access the videos. You can either watch the deleted YouTube videos using the link or find the deleted YouTube videos from your backup."
Being "no part of the world" means being loving, loving righteousness and justice, and taking care of lowly ones rather than attacking them.
I did have evidence of a typical "shepherding call" that was not loving. I deleted the evidence out of fear, but since I'm not afraid anymore, I wish I could get the evidence back. I don't know if it would be useful to anybody or not. It might not be. I just know Bethel really didn't want me to keep it after I sent them a transcript of it. (I don't have the transcript anymore either.😕)
Here are some useless deleted links...
https://youtu.be/hDU2qqDbdE8
https://youtu.be/HSwG70PAZks
I am the owner of the videos that were linked. They link to "nothing" right now. I tried the "wayback machine" to get them again but it didn't work. There is no backup of the videos, the devices used to record it have been wiped. The videos are of a secretly recorded "shepherding call". One video is no audio, it is a screen recording of a Zoom shepherding call. The other video is the audio recorded from a separate device for that same shepherding call.
If a person was able to retrieve them, I would be willing to explain the circumstances of the "shepherding call" in more detail.
But, if there's no way to get them back, this may just be a useless post, as you say, "that means nothing." 🙂 But all things are possible with God, and if it is Jehovah's will, maybe they'll turn out to not be useless after all. (Jehovah can make something out of nothing. He does it all the time.☺️)
I am not disfellowshipped by Jehovah. He gives me His holy spirit, and He wouldn't do that if the "disfellowshipping doctrine" was in harmony with His spirit inspired Word. The disfellowshipping doctrine is Satan's way of doing things, it's part of this world.
I live about a minute and a half from the KH. We moved to this house so we could be close to the KH. I've known the people there a long time. One sister was in the room when I had my kids. Another sister and her family, we were there after she lost her son in a tragic accident and we were together through so many of the tears. Another sister, we supplicated Jehovah that her son could come over from Africa because it was a difficult situation, and then he finally got here. I've visited those people in nursing homes and hospitals, and we've shared meals together and our lives. The people are my mothers and sisters and brothers. My kids' friends are there. When those bad elders disfellowshipped me, it was like I lost a whole nation of people to death at once. I didn't die, spiritually or otherwise. It's like they all did. Except I still see them around town, and they act strange.
It's not their fault - it's the governing body's fault. Hopefully they repent. The ransom is enough for them if they haven't sinned against the spirit. They teach lies about the Bible and lies about Jehovah. And they know better. They know the history of the organization, how disfellowshipping wasn't always a thing. It's like they don't have a heart anymore - it's gone dark. They are acting like "part of the world."
Jesus is coming to remedy the situation. I'm not the only one, obviously, who has had to deal with the fallout from false doctrines. Every single member of the organization has been hurt by them. And the whole world, really, who hear about Jehovah's Witnesses and these awful false doctrines, they are hurt too because it makes them think bad of Jehovah and not want to get to know Him. Most of all, Jehovah's been hurt by these false doctrines - seeing His kids get treated so horribly and the guys taking the lead saying "it's in Jehovah's name we do this." Yikes!
I don't know what helps other "disfellowshipped" ones cope, but it helps me to view those in the organization as asleep. Jesus will wake them up, just like he woke Lazarus up. Until then, it's like I get to watch them dreaming...I miss them. But I know whatever things we miss out on together now, Jehovah can give back tenfold in the future. Everlasting life is a long time, and Jehovah has a way of giving superabundantly beyond all we can ask or conceive. I will wait for it.
(I'll see you when you "wake up", too, @boyle...🥲😘😌Love you, my brother...."Until we meet again..."🌿🌷)
I don't think I said anything that could be considered "stupid talk about that country" @boyle, but out of respect for you and whichever brother you mean, I will refrain from the topic if it pleases you.🙂
I'm not disfellowshipped by Jehovah, or by His Friends. Jehovah's Friends (the ones who are awake) know that Jesus' ransom is enough for me. (The other ones are sleeping, but they'll wake up eventually.)
How magnanimous of you.😁
I don't think @Witness is bad. I think she's just a little mixed up at present. I don't follow Pearl - I follow Jesus. I'm not an apostate. I believe the Bible is God's Word and I put God's Word ahead of what any imperfect person teaches.
What are you talking about? I know God's name is Jehovah. Jehovah left His Name on Jehovah's Witnesses. He could remove it if He wanted too. But He hasn't. I know Jehovah will clean up the organization bearing His Name, because His Name Means He Causes To Become. His Name is associated with His Reputation, the God of Love. Jehovah will never fail to come for us, to save us, to rescue us. I am waiting for Him. His name is the "signal" for us. Jesus' name means "Jehovah is Salvation." I will wait where Jehovah's name is. Even if I'm "just outside the walls" so-to-speak, because bad guy elder wolves threw me out for telling the truth.
Hi, @boyle. Was this is the Watchtower article you were talking about? It's from April 2016, "Maintain Your Neutrality in a Divided World" - it's reviewed again in the midweek meeting this week.
Here's the thing, the scriptures cited in the article don't support the points that are made in the article. Below are some of the scriptures cited in the paragraphs that are about "neutrality". I also will attach screenshots from the article, but I can't see how these specific scriptures are supporting the statements of the writer of that article...(by the way, this Watchtower is the one also that said Jehovah's Witnesses don't vote...)
Matthew 22:21 "They said: “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them: “Pay back, therefore, Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.”"
Jesus was talking about paying taxes. He wasn't talking about neutrality. In fact, paying taxes isn't really neutral if you think about it, because it funds the military and abortion clinics in some places and political leaders. Paying taxes is one of the least neutral things you can do. And yet Jesus said to do it.
Isaiah 2:4 "He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore."
This verse is about not taking part in war. It doesn't talk about politics or social issues or voting.
John 6:15 "Then Jesus, knowing that they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again to the mountain all alone."
This verse doesn't say that Jesus wasn't interested in social issues. Jesus obviously was very interested in social issues. He fed the hungry. He comforted the depressed. He ministered to the sick and downtrodden. He raised money for the poor. He taught about fair treatment for women and those people who others were prejudiced against.
When Jesus left the scene in that verse, it wasn't because he didn't care about social issues. It just wasn't his Father's time for Jesus to be king yet. It wasn't about neutrality. It was about timing.
John 17:16 "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."
The entire chapter of John 17 is about life and truth and joy and being united in love with Jehovah. There is nothing there about politics or neutrality. It's all about love. "No part of the world" means not acting like Satan, the ruler of the world. It means not being attached to his way of doing things, which is the way of hate and pride and competition and selfishness. It doesn't mean "don't support a soup kitchen" or "don't donate to save the whales" or "don't vote for a local representative for city hall."
1 Peter 2:17 "Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers, be in fear of God, honor the king."
This verse doesn't talk about neutrality either, but it is cited right after a sentence in the article that talks about it again.
Ephesians 2:2 "in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience."
The verse here is used in the article to condemn protesters. When Jehovah's Witnesses did information marches like "Religion is a Snare and a Racket", were those like a form of protest against false religion? When Jehovah's Witnesses wrote letters to Putin, wasn't that a form of activist campaigning? Being active in protesting a situation does not necessitate that that expression is a "disobedient" one from God's point of view. When we protest that our brothers are arrested in Russia for keeping their integrity and manifest that protest by means of an appeal to the government authorities, that is not "the spirit of disobedience" yet it is a form of protest. So is the organization also not being neutral when they preach or appeal for the arrested brothers?
John 16:33 "I have said these things to you so that by means of me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.”
Conquering the world means conquering hatred. It is not about "neutrality" in social issues.
(There are other issues mixed in with "neutrality" in the article the way it is written. Idol worship is bad, yes. Pledging allegiance to a flag is a form of idol worship, yes. Murder is bad, truly. Jesus told us not to pick up the sword. We have specific commands that tell us not to kill and not to do false worship. But what does that have to do with the neutrality issue as applied in the article, which does not have any scriptural grounds as the article is written? Personally, I have no desire to either vote or to get involved in political issues, but I don't like it when the scriptures are misapplied and twisted to make it look like they're saying something that they're not really saying.
The video that goes along with the article is even more ridiculous. After reading the Watchtower article, the poor lady feels guilty for watching the news. Another one feels bad because she cares about people. And the young guy feels bad for liking soccer games. The real thing they should feel bad about is worshipping the governing body and obeying men ahead of obeying God, since that's false worship of idols and disobedience to Jehovah.)
What was she reinstated as?
Did you stop viewing her as your sister for awhile and then you changed your mind?
Why did you abandon her when she needed you most, if she was potentially spiritually weak or sick?
Didn't Jesus tell an illustration about taking care of a beat up unconscious person?
If you considered her to be spiritually unconscious, how could you just abandon her and leave her for dead?
What do you mean by "status"?
Did Jehovah have the spirit come down in bodily form like a dove so that you could be aware of His approval of her or the lack thereof?
How do you measure genuine repentance if you can't read the heart?
Where does it say anywhere in the Bible the process utilized by the congregation at present for these "reinstatement" rituals?
If you can't literally see "the Devil take her over" as you say, why would you conclude such a thing?
And if that did happen, how could you leave her with him and expect counseling to help?
How did you measure that one, that she "left Jehovah's hands"?
How do you know she ever "left Jehovah's hands" if you can't see Jehovah?
If she had been visiting with you for a period of time, as you make it sound, why didn't you forgive her the very first day she came to you, since Jesus said "if you brother comes to you even 77 times a day and repents you must forgive him..."?
Why would you make her suffer by treating her as an outcast in God's house just because of some dumb rules from headquarters that are opposed to Jehovah's holy spirit and Christ's commands?
(Just wondering.🥹 From my point of view, that whole "reinstatement ritual" seems pretty "worldly"/satanic. Not really what Christ would do at all. I know you're just following orders from the GB. Please, @boyle, I do hope you will reconsider that someday. I just know Jesus has so much more good work for you to do in the future, and even now, to comfort people like the Christ did, if only that GB rhetoric wasn't getting in the way of showing love.)💖
Oh, @Pudgy, I know nothing I do is going to "help". Nothing is going to change until it is Jehovah's appointed time. I know that.
It's just in the meantime, a matter of principle. I am not trying to be disruptive, that is not my motive, but it is a result of their response to my keeping integrity. I can't help that.
I obeyed the rules of the congregation as published, as well as the rules of the Bible. Those guys broke their own rules, and then punished me for it. Fine. Whatever. But now I am not going to stop loving people just because they want to kick me out. Their lack of integrity doesn't change my integrity.
I am not going to stop talking to people just because some guys want to say "shun her!" It doesn't work that way. They can make all the decrees they want, but that doesn't change that Jehovah decrees I do everything I can to encourage my family. There are some in the congregation who know I didn't do anything for which to be shunned. They know it. And they got strength when they saw me out there with that sign. The little ones. They saw, and they got strength. I won't leave them.
When there are brothers and sisters in the prisons, who goes to clap for them? When there are sick ones in the hospitals or nursing homes, who goes to visit them? We should. We can't always, but it's good if we do. My family is in prison in the organization to wicked men who make God-dishonoring decrees. I'm not leaving them. I can't be with them at every meeting - I won't bring my kids there anymore because of current circumstances - but I can go to the assembly and convention and CO visit once in awhile and show that I am not a hater and I am not guilty of the charges. It's the principle of it. If I didn't go, then it'd be like I gave up. I can't do that.
Even when I feel like giving up, Jehovah gives me the strength again. Praise Jehovah. I am confident that soon He will get rid of the disfellowshipping doctrine and the other God-dishonoring teachings in the organization. I am 100% confident. I will be outside the "walls" when they fall, and I will be ready to comfort all those brothers. They are going to need to be comforted. They're not used to thinking and reasoning on the Bible for themselves.
