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Foreigner

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  1. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Although it may leave a lot of scars, callouses, and actually make you stronger and more aware ... "Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger".
    If you want a good audience laugh ... use me as a good example.
     
  2. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Hmmmm. It's usually easy to identify anyone's remarks here as their opinion, and I have expressed my opinion. If I had said, or "published" as you say, that the city of Sodom must not be destroyed forever in the final judgment and they are therefore coming back in the resurrection, or that only the babies and children killed in the Flood of Noah's day are coming back in the resurrection, then you might immediately recognize that this was an opinion, even if I used Scriptures to back up my opinion. Especially if you recognized that I was using a different set of scriptures than our publications use in order to back up my opinion.
    No matter whether I think that something you or Tom or Witness, or John, or Anna or Jack or others might be right or wrong, if I can recognize that it is different from the most recent published presentation in the publications or from the platform, then I know that you or they have formed an opinion, no matter how sure anyone is about that opinion.
    But I would expect you (or them) to provide (publish) a reasonable and hopefully scriptural argument for that opinion. And I might expect that the argument could be very good or could very well be flawed. Just as my own opinion might be flawed.
    An opinion can very well be in opposition to the majority opinion, or accepted doctrine. My mention of the fact that perhaps thousands might think this way is an acknowledgment of the fact that I have heard these opinions from others too, and I extrapolate because I don't think I'm so unique or special in any way, nor is this congregation.
    I think sensitivities to differences on this particular opinion have been weighted by the fact that it is fast becoming the most repeated unique doctrine in the Watchtower study articles. Since 2014, the expressions "faithful slave" and "faithful and discreet slave" have regularly edged out "1914" and "generation" and "Armageddon." In fact, from 2016 to 2018, the date 1919 was used far more in the Watchtower than 1914. I think you can guess why.
  3. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Well it's only my opinion but if a person in not part of the solution then they are part of the problem.
    If a person does not believe what the GB / W/t / JW Org says, yet still supports them by attending meetings and even worse doing ministry, which involves distributing literature 'of a dubious nature' and giving bible studies which are not truly bible studies but indoctrination from GB / W/t books, then that person is part of the problem. 
    And back to what Tom calls my favourite subject, if a person invites families with young children to the KH, knowing that the KH might not be a 'safe place' to be, then that person is also part of that problem.  But that problem is caused by the GB rules of course, which allows for the hiding of 'unkind' people in the congregations. 
    James, none of your cartoons hide the facts that a person cannot sit on the fence. A person either supports the whole rotten lot or does not support them. Them being the GB / W/t / JW Org as a complete bundle. 
  4. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    YOU ARE MAKING A GENERAL STATEMENT THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO ME, ON ALL POINTS.
    ... and there is no hypocrisy on my part.
    No one has EVER accused me of being "Brother Watchtower", nor have I ever been, or represented myself as such.
    If I was "two faced", my head would have a LOT more hair!

  5. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    @Anna  So here you do go back on your word, well as you spoke it to me anyway. I think you were being slightly sarcastic to me, so I had to laugh when I read you latest comment, which seemed to go back on all you'd said to me. 
    Quote " I realize it seems like I am contradicting myself since I said that one " should have all those "own opinions on scripture" cleared up, otherwise one wouldn't get baptized as one of JW since one of the requirements is to agree with all 100 questions asked in the "organized book" "
    Yes completely contradicting yourself Anna. 
    Of course when I was going through the questions in the 80’s there was no mention of the  FDS applying exclusively to the GB. We know this has been a recent change as is evident in the 2015 version of the book.
    That's a good one to show Tom as he thinks there hasn't been important changes made. Like i say, breach of contract in the real world. 
    Quote Anna " I  know for sure @James Thomas Rook Jr. only agrees with about 15% of the interpretations made by the GB and yet he remains a part of the congregation as far as I am aware. "
    Yeh now that is what I call hypocrisy big time.   I mean a person could remain a Catholic with those principals. A Catholic could say 'You know like, i really dig the pope and the Catholic religion, but i don't believe half of what they say, but I'll stay Catholic anyway'.   
    That is how stupid JW's sound when they stay physically in but spiritually / emotionally out. But I've said before, we all know why they do it. It's that Blackmail of losing everyone and everything. It frightens some people too much. 
  6. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Yeah ... I don't expect much from people, and less from people getting free money.
    What they do or do not do does not affect the TRUTH, that I could not have learned anywhere else, and has been a blessing to me my whole life .... keeping me out of the hospital, prison, and the graveyard. Knowing the TRUTH has set me free, and KEPT me free.
    ..but I can completely do without Caleb and Sophia, and nutso stuff like the "overlapping generations", which is so transparently completely fake, and completely contrary to ANYTHING Jesus taught.
    ..... ad 85 percentum.

  7. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    .... and have the Governing Body solemnly charge the Watchtower Lawyers to pursue JUSTICE, wherever it may be found ... NOT to forsake and pervert justice, to preserve the WTB&TS Treasury, and Warwick lifestyle.
  8. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I see no evidence that the Governing Body is trying to "extricate" themselves from the 100 and more years of failed false prophesy, and all the arrogant presumptuousness that accompanies their brazen self-aggrandizement,
    I think, JWI that your considered assessment is a hopeful fantasy ... until they openly and completely and unambiguously make a full and public written apology for all the harm they have caused over the last at least 60 years with their arrogant and transparent manipulations for the sake of power and money, and real estate.
    .... and put into effect policies and procedures for it not to happen .... again, and again, and again, and again, as we have watched for half a century.
    .... and fer crying out loud .... throw those atrocious "Telly Awards" in the trash.
    Nothing is more embarrassing than watching a con-man that is not good at it....
    ... and get those Caleb and Sophia dolls out of Tight Pants Tony's Office!

  9. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    We have met the ENEMY ..... and he is us!   -   Pogo
    (my emphasis)
  10. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Quite the opposite. I stated that I think the GB have a desire to do God's work and to obey God, and that they are worthy of double honor (especially as they work hard in speaking and teaching). They have reached out for the office of overseer, and as the scripture I quoted states, they are therefore desirous of a fine work. This is their goal, as I stated:
    Somehow you decided that this means they are not worthy?
    My concern was that a few of these men, evidently, have also succumbed to some ideas, based on doctrinal traditions that have been handed down to us since at least Rutherford's time. Those traditions include trying to maneuver 1914 into Jesus' parables even when it becomes clear that it won't work. They have therefore cornered themselves into making a declaration of their own righteousness and faithfulness in a presumptuous manner rather than faithfully and discreetly waiting upon Jesus to make that judgment.
    This is just a false step that our brothers have taken, presumably before they were aware of it. Many Witnesses have noticed this. I would assume that thousands have noticed this and are therefore concerned. In fact, I now think that the GB themselves are aware of this doctrinal conundrum and have begun trying to extricate themselves. The first step is admitting that it is presumptuous to declare a specific group or class as Jehovah's "sole channel." Then admitting that many of the doctrines through the years have been false, and that even current doctrines and procedures are subject to error.  And if we are aware of a false step, our responsibility is to say something.
    *** od p. 193 Part 2 Jehovah’s Righteous Requirements ***
    25. In addition to confessing his own sins, each person has what responsibility regarding serious wrongdoing by others that could threaten the spiritual or moral cleanness of the congregation?
    “If someone sins because he has heard a public call to testify and he is a witness or has seen or learned about it and he does not report it, then he will answer for his error.”—Lev. 5:1.
     
  11. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    With the above as the basis, we can now begin to see an issue with the explanation.
    After arriving in 1914, Jesus was supposed to have appointed the GB as the FDS in 1919. But the original parable is about Jesus appointing the FDS and then departing for an unknown amount of time.
    If Jesus arrived in 1914, and appointed the FDS in 1919, then when did he depart?  Where did he depart to? For a time, after 1916, Rutherford got very quiet about the 40 years of harvest running from 1874 to 1914, and, in fact, he changed those 40 years, and made them run from 1878 to 1918.  At the time, recall, 1914 was still considered an embarrassing, failed expectation. It had not yet been tied to any invisible presence [still 1874] or the start of Christ's Kingdom [still 1878], or the casting down of Satan. And the "first resurrection" was not yet tied to 1918; it was still 1881. So Rutherford would soon begin to speak of Jesus having "arrived" in 1918 for the inspection and cleansing of the Temple. In spite of a great European War in 1914, it was pretty clear to Rutherford that nothing Biblically significant had happened in 1914. That was supposed to be the final VISIBLE manifestation of an invisible presence that started 40 years earlier. After inspection, 1919 would be the new fresh start. In the early 1920's, Rutherford reaffirmed the chronology, including 1874, 1878, 1881, and 1914 in preparation for the sureness of his 1925 prediction. But he also said that there was more proof for 1925 than there had been for 1914.
    So now we move onto the details. Luke says there are four classes of slave:
    Faithful and Discreet who will be appointed over all belongings on the Master's arrival Unfaithful Slave who will be beaten with greatest severity Understanding Slave who didn't get ready and is beaten with many strokes Misunderstanding Slave who gets beaten with few strokes. This of course matches the parable of the talents where a master makes appointments to various servants, and a NWT cross-reference points us to Matthew 25:
    (Matthew 25:14-30) . . .“For it is just like a man about to travel abroad who summoned his slaves and entrusted his belongings to them. 15 He gave five talents to one, two to another, and one to still another, to each according to his own ability, and he went abroad. . . . 19 “After a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one who had received the five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, . . . 21 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 Next the one who had received the two talents . . . 23 His master said to him: ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent . . . In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, . . . 29 For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 30 And throw the good-for-nothing slave out into the darkness outside.. . .
    It ends with an idea similar to the way Luke ends the parable of the faithful and wise steward:
    (Luke 12:48) . . .Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
    In fact, we have a situation in several parables (marriage feast, where the idea is always that the Master makes an appointment over some of his belongings to his servants, and then the master departs to travel abroad, and then the master returns (at a time they didn't expect) and the Master judges those slaves.
    Another short one is in Mark (the doorkeeper), where Jesus gives authority to his slaves, to each one his work.
    (Mark 13:34) It is like a man traveling abroad who left his house and gave the authority to his slaves, to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to keep on the watch. 35 Keep on the watch, therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether late in the day or at midnight or before dawn or early in the morning, 36 in order that when he comes suddenly, he does not find you sleeping.
    Back when Jesus departed in 33 to travel abroad, these parables made more sense. After all he assigned persons like Peter to "feed his little sheep" in 33 CE and then departed. He then returned in 1914 or 1918 for an inspection (of the Temple) and judged a group as ready for a greater assignment. But now Jesus arrives in 1914, to makes an assignment, but remains present to arrive later to make a judgment and greater appointments over all his belongings. Obviously the whole thing was turned into a mess in order to twist 1914 and 1919 into the mix, but it doesn't work anymore, because Jesus never departs after making the assignments.
    And of course, in the Watchtower version, we have now eliminated the evil slave as a non-existent hypothetical, even though Jesus always considered two three or four or even more slaves, each one according to his work. The Watchtower avoids Luke's version altogether because it might require thinking about who is represented by the non-existent hypothetical second slave who gets punished severely, and the third non-existent hypothetical slave who gets many strokes, and the fourth non-existent hypothetical slave that gets few strokes.
    But here's the most indiscreet part:
    No one is declared the "faithful and wise servant" until after that judgment by Jesus. None of them were supposed to presumptuously claim that they were already to be identified as that slave and that any chance of becoming evil or punished is only hypothetical or non-existent. It's up to Jesus to make that judgment when he returns.
    And of course this points up another major flaw when we claim that this final judgment as faithful results in appointment over all his belongings. At this point, the Watchtower explains that we are no longer talking about the FDS anymore, but the time when ALL the anointed, the GB along with the other 143,966 anointed, are equally appointed over all his belongings at the same time. (With no concern over who those other classes of faithful, less faithful, and unfaithful servants might have been.)
  12. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Witness in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Jesus knew it was coming.
    Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings (elder body) of the Gentiles (those not anointed) exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ (GB)  26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.  Luke 22:24-27
    They are called "benefactors"
    "Benefactors" - A title of honor, conferred on such as had done their country service, and upon princes, equivalent to Soter, Pater Patriae. ("Father of the Country")
     I believe JWs will agree that the GB/"faithful and discreet slave" has done their "country service"; yet totally blind to their true identity as "dictators".  
  13. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    This is, in fact, a pretty easy question to answer. You did hit the nail on the head, as it were, with the definition of "discreet."
    Here's where we can begin to see why.
    The primary Watchtower that changed our current definition of the FDS was back in July 15, 2013. The article claimed that the FDS was now specifically and uniquely associated with the Governing Body. There we see the following, which I am including again here, not for you, but mostly for those who might not have read it carefully.
    *** w13 7/15 p. 20 par. 3 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
    In the past, our publications have said the following: At Pentecost 33 C.E., Jesus appointed the faithful slave over his domestics. The slave represents all anointed Christians on earth as a group at any one time since then. The domestics refer to the same anointed ones as individuals. In 1919, Jesus appointed the faithful slave “over all his belongings”—all his earthly Kingdom interests.
    The first part of that old view goes back to Russell: that all of the anointed made up the faithful slave. Russell kept that view from 1879 to until about 1897. The assumption was that they would be appointed over all his belongings at the time of their resurrection. Then, in 1897, Russell discreetly published an article stating that the slave was only one person, one individual. Then, very indiscreetly, began publishing letters and articles that addressed himself as that faithful and wise servant (FDS), allowed himself to be referred to like this at conventions, and began referring to the Watchtower publications as "food at the proper time" or "meat in due season."
    Watchtower publications have said that Russell personally admitted to being the FDS in private. The publications have also stated that, when asked, he would sometimes respond: "Some say the Society is [that servant] . . . some say that I am."
    An attempt to apply another faithful steward parable to Rutherford began shortly after Russell died. But Rutherford himself continued to teach that Russell had personally been that faithful and wise servant. 
    That didn't last more than a decade, though, because Rutherford went back to Russell's original view that all the 144,000 made up the faithful slave class, and that they fed one another, including themselves, as the domestics. Later it was added that 1919 had been the year that they were appointed over all Christ's belongings. By the 1950's, the "governing body" as the representative officers of the Watch Tower Society began associating themselves more directly with the work of that "faithful and discreet slave."
    *** w58 1/15 pp. 45-47 pars. 17-23 Overseers in Apocalyptic Times ***
    Can it still be true that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the congregations of true Christians today? Since the spirit is God’s invisible active force and is silent and unfeelable, how could we be sure that the appointing of overseers is by it today? The Holy Bible, God’s Word, makes this certain.. . .  Since 1919 God’s organization has risen up to let the light of his glory shine amid the gross darkness of this world, and the time has come for the fulfillment of his promise: “I will . . . make thy chiefs peaceful and thine overseers righteous.” (Isa. 60:1, 2, 17, AS; LXX; Thomson; Bagster) We are living also in the time of final fulfillment of the prophecy to which the apostle Peter referred on the day of Pentecost, namely: “It shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.” (Joel 2:28, 29, AS; Acts 2:16-18) We should therefore expect the spirit’s activity to include appointing overseers.
    19 As in the days of the apostles, the Christian flock of Jehovah God has over it a visible governing body. It acts for and in expression of the “faithful and discreet slave” whom Jesus Christ has appointed since coming into his kingdom in the heavens in 1914. When warning his apostles about his coming for the judgment of his followers at an unknown hour in the time of the end of this old world, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matt. 24:45-47) Since 1919 this “faithful and discreet slave,” who is a composite person made up of all anointed Christian joint heirs of Jesus Christ, has been taking care of “all his belongings” on earth. The slave has been faithfully giving out the spiritual, Biblical food at the proper time, so that there is no spiritual famine among the Christian witnesses of Jehovah. To make this “faithful and discreet slave” class equal to their heavy responsibilities in these last days, God through Christ has poured out his spirit upon them in these last days, in complete fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
    20 The governing body of the “faithful and discreet slave” class is taken from the members of this same anointed, spirit-filled class. By God’s spirit it is functioning. So, then, when the appointment of overseers is made by this governing body in harmony with the requirements laid down for overseers, it is really by the spirit that such overseers are appointed, although through human intermediaries. As the modern history of Jehovah’s witnesses shows, this is specially true since 1932, when the system of elective elders and deacons [ministerial servants] was done away with in their congregations.
    21 The governing body of mature members of the “faithful and discreet slave” class always seeks the guidance of God’s holy spirit in appointing responsible men in the congregations overseers, together with their assistants, the ministerial servants. They do not act according to any personal favoritism or any bias. . . .
    22 When, now, the governing body designates overseers that meet those plainly stated requirements, it is really the holy spirit that leads to the appointing of such overseers; it is really the holy spirit that makes such overseers. This fact becomes more evident when we note that it is also the fullness of the indwelling of the holy spirit in the candidate for the office of overseer that influences his appointment. The candidate must show that he is filled with the spirit by the way he conducts himself and his family (if he has one). . . .
    23 In consideration of the spirit’s fruitage produced by the candidate and in harmony with the written requirements set out in the Holy Scriptures written by men under the operation of the holy spirit, the governing body acts, being itself moved by the holy spirit for which it prays to God that it may guide the governing body. In every respect, then, the spirit of God comes to the fore in the matter of appointing overseers. So today as well as in Paul’s day it may be said that the holy spirit appoints overseers over the flock of God that he purchased “with the blood of his own Son.” (Acts 20:28, Schonfield) If in course of time any overseer turns out bad, we must remember that even Judas Iscariot, whom Jesus himself selected to be an apostolic overseer, turned out bad, betraying his own Overseer, the Chief Shepherd, to his enemies to be killed.
    I included a little extra from the context of the earlier Watchtower as foundation for discussing some related aspects such as the actual meaning of spirit-led organization, etc. But the main point is to keep in mind the two primary views most of us have held during our lifetime as Witnesses:
    (1950's-2013) The GB, especially since 1919, acts for and in expression of the FDS, which has included all the anointed since 33 CE., but which has been appointed over all Christ's belongings since 1919. (2013-present) The GB, since 1919, is now the same thing as the FDS, which no longer includes all the anointed, but only the GB, and has only been appointed since 1919, but will not be appointed over all Christ's belongings until a future time when all of the anointed are in heaven.
  14. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I agree, but people claiming to represent the words of God are quite sure, and they apparently care a great deal ... and will disfellowship us if we admit we do not believe them.
  15. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    In fact.... we need no personal conscience whatsoever!
    Anything not specifically approved .... is forbidden..
    ...try using unapproved words and extra-magazine phrases and concepts to make a comment at the Watchtower Study, and it will be like someone threw a brick through a plate glass window.
     
     
     
  16. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Noble Berean in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    (At this stage, haven't words like GB, organization, and Jehovah become conflated?)
    What you're saying here is very true, but does the history of the organization reflect that? The GB has already admitted to giving incorrect direction to its members. Throughout all of these changes, JWs have remained staunchly loyal to the GB in the old thinking and the new.
    The GB can hand-wave away their errant direction. I am sure they would say it's direction has never truly conflicted with God. But there aren't variations of the truth -- there is only right and wrong. If a change is made, then that means there was something false with the previous direction. You might see that as an overly critical mindset, but I am only scrutinizing the GB with the same level of scrutiny that they impose on all of us.
    Now, I know that there have been JWs that recognized an incorrect doctrine ahead of an "adjustment" by the GB. I say that with certainty, because I have hardcore JW family that experienced this personally. That is why Jackson's comment is highly disingenuous, because JWs have never had the right to act in harmony with their own views. Again, I'll direct you to the organization's comments:
    "At the same time, we recognize that our knowledge of God's purpose is not perfect; our understanding has undergone adjustments over the years. Loyal Christians are content to wait on Jehovah for all such refinements." (W04 Feb 15 p.17)
    "Some may feel that they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. Since 1919, the glorified Jesus Christ has been using that slave to help his followers understand God’s own Book and heed its directives. By obeying the instructions found in the Bible, we promote cleanness, peace, and unity in the congregation. Each one of us does well to ask himself, ‘Am I loyal to the channel that Jesus is using today?'" (Nov. 2016 WT)
    The WT makes it clear that it is not our place to form our own understanding of doctrine. Jackson's statement is illogical from a WT perspective -- that's not how the organization has ever functioned. Direction has always been revealed through the organization since it is "spirit directed" by God. If we have personal doubts, we are instructed to wait for the GB to make an adjustment. At no point do we act on our own understanding. This can never change, or the GB will lose its control over members. Control is of utmost concern to them - that is their chief priority.
     
  17. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I hope you meant that in a positive way, as I use the normal common usage of words ... even the word "Grok", which can be looked up ... but my favorite, is the standard definition of the word "generation", which some have stretched, and bent into a pretzel
    When Jesus used the expression " ... this generation will not pass away until all these things occur ...", how did the people he spoke it to understand what he meant?
    Whatever that understanding was ... that's how we should understand it ... because ..... that is what he ACTUALLY said.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok
     
  18. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    JW congregants are not supposed to think rationally.  That's what all the meetings are for, to tell you what to think and tell you what to say to others. The Work Book and the Watchtower mags dictate the 'thinking' that JW's do. The NWT is written in such a way so as to dictate the GB's way of thinking. The tracts are supposed to 'do the talking' for you. JW's no longer have to think. Because remember, JW congregants are not supposed to have their own opinions. And if they do have their own opinions they are not allowed to express them. 
    Outa Here is a great example of how a person can be dictated to and be soooo brainwashed in the worst possible way. 
    Just look at this :  But the Governing Body? Well my life depends on recognising who they are 
    I would have thought his/her life would depend on how they serve God through Christ. 
     
  19. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    If you continually change the definitions of words, and people trust you, you can short-circuit even their ability to think rationally.
      "New Light" is stroboscopic, and can give you cognitive epilepsy.

  20. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I do remember noting that "Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger", was fraught with lots of scars, and callouses.

  21. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    There is only one solution to the way the Devil is trying his best to run this world. 
    Jesus died so that God could put it all right, but God will chose His own time. 
    I've said many times that there is not a useable Organisation here on Earth right now for God to use properly. So God would probably have to work on that one. Whether God will 'sort out' the JW Org or build a new Org is not for me to guess. (I leave the guessing to the GB & Co). 
    As for humanity, well I think it has a while yet to keep on keeping on. The Earth is still quite useable and no serious damage had been done by nukes. Although many people die, the human race keeps increasing, so it is not the full on disaster that 'science' seems to say it is. There could be another hundred years yet. 
    There does not seem to me to be any seriousness in serving God though. Some on here keep comparing the  GB / JW org to the early Christians, but those early Christians gave up everything and had basically nothing. In contrast some pioneers here in the UK will not accept second hand items from people, and they will only buy new. JW's live in luxury in many places compared to the early Christians. I'm not including places like Russia as that situation is totally different, but in UK I know of JW's still having posh houses built for them. So maybe God is wanting people to serve Him more seriously. 
  22. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JOHN BUTLER in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    I will always laugh when anyone on here compares the idea of serving God properly with some sort of worldly 'dealings'. 
    The only way of comparing serving God properly is with what God has had written as instruction in His written word the Bible. (I presume that God guided not only the writings but also the gathering of the 66 books). 
    The reason God commanded us to be in subjection to the "Superior Authorities" is NOT because they are even right most of the time .... but because even the VERY WORST are better than anarchy.
    That is obvious, but not so obvious to the Soc /Org, that they couldn't leave that scripture alone. They even had to deliberately change the meaning of it to gain power for themselves. 
    Quote "The TRUTH sets us free." Yes true truth would. Or are you caught up in that trick of the Soc/Org's, that using the word truth means they speak truth or teach truth ?  Can you not see the con in that ? The deliberate deception. It is done to work on the emotions / sub conscious or what ever gives people that 'good' feeling. By calling it the 'truth', 'being in the truth', people let down their guard, they start to believe ALL of it. They do not question anything that comes from the Watchtower mags or from the platform.  Add to that, that congregants are told not to have their own opinion and/or not to discuss anything that may differ from 'instructions'. 
    HOW MUCH FREEDOM DOES THAT GIVE PEOPLE, BEING DICTATED TO BY THE GB RIGHT DOWN TO THE ELDERS. Being frightened of being d/fed for the slightest thing. Is that the freedom you get from the JW Org ? 
    Quote : "Humans are just nasty, selfish and no-good".  You must mix with the wrong crowd James. Oh yes you mix with JW's. 
    I get involved in automobilia auctions, I go to classic car shows, I go to vintage motor scooter shows, I spend too much time viewing all sorts of auctions, and the people are great. Very friendly and sociable. In fact I tend to meet up with the same people regularly at auctions and there is no bitterness if I win lots or if they do. 
    Your view of humans being nasty, selfish and no good, is just a JW viewpoint to try to frighten people from mixing with 'outsiders'.  But haven't we seen where the trouble really lies ? Inside that JW org. That's where many of the nasty, selfish, no goods are. Including the GB in my opinion. 
    Oh by the way, do you honestly think God wants a GB or an Org that is only 50% obedient, or only gets 50% right ? 
     
     
  23. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    .... remember Billy, the anagram of God, is doG.
    karb?
    oops....
    Grok?
     
  24. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Very, very true ... but the first step to becoming invincible ( which is only a goal you might get CLOSE to ..) is to grit your teeth, and form an unbreakable resolve that that is who you WANT to be.
    The following poem helped me a great deal ... written by a man who was dying of disease. I was taught it in the 8th grade in public school, and it took me 40 years of repetition to learn it by heart, without missing lines.
    Invictus
    By William Ernest Henley
    Out of the night that covers me,       Black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be       For my unconquerable soul.   In the fell clutch of circumstance       I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance       My head is bloody, but unbowed.   Beyond this place of wrath and tears       Looms but the Horror of the shade, And yet the menace of the years       Finds and shall find me unafraid.   It matters not how strait the gate,       How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate,       I am the captain of my soul.   Also, it may help to watch about 5 or 10 times, John Wayne's last movie, "The Shootist",  made as he was dying of cancer in real life. At that time, one lung had been removed, and the other was failing.   He had to rest between "takes".    
     
  25. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?   
    Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.
    But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.
    This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:
    "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  
    And a similar one here:
    *** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
    One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.
    We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."
    Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 
    But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.
    The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.
    (Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
    30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .
    20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
    24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.
    I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)
    We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.
    (1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:
    (1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . . (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God. (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand. (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.
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