AlanF

Yep, completely looney.
AlanF

Completely looney people can hardly be accused of lying when they muck up as badly as you have.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
As I said above, this is entirely irrelevant. That scattering occurred a hundred years earlier, and those Jews were not part of the Return from Babylon.
Once again: Wrong. The cause of the deportation of Judah was the Jews' failure to submit to Babylon. The cause for God's giving Babylon 70 years of supremacy in the Near East was the wickedness of the inhabitants.
Totally wrong. By that time the 10 tribes were scattered to the four winds. Need I remind you of what the Bible says?
Wrong on the dating. Daniel and a few others were taken in 605/604. A lot more were taken in 597, and another batch in 587 and afterwards.
Like I said: what of it?
I said nothing about court gossip. I described Daniel and others possible notification that big things were in the works -- hardly gossip.
Yes, and to where? To the close vicinity of Babylon.
You don't know the Bible at all. As I said, Daniel and a few others were taken in 605/604. In early 597 Zedekiah was made king, and that was when Jeremiah received God's word pleading with the Jews to remain on their land by submitting to Babylon. They had another decade to submit before Nebuchadnezzar came against them again because Zedekiah refused to submit. So most of the Jews could have avoided deportation.
Yes, all of which occurred between 589 and 587 BCE.
Once again, this desolation was contingent on the Jews failing to reform and submit. Jer. 9 is part of a larger plea given by God through Jeremiah for the Jews to reform, or else. In Jer. 7:3-7 God says:
<< Reform your ways and your actions, and I will allow you to keep residing in this place. . . For if you truly reform your ways and actions; if you truly uphold justice between a man and his neighbor; 6 if you do not oppress foreign residents, orphans, and widows; if you do not shed innocent blood in this place; and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm; 7 then I will allow you to keep residing in this place, in the land I gave to your forefathers for all time. >>
Oh yeah, you don't believe the Bible.
A prophecy made in Zedekiah's 10th year, while Jerusalem was under siege. By then it was too late for God to show mercy and let the Jews remain. Again you don't know the Bible.
AlanF

Already debunked.
AlanF

allensmitth28 wrote:
I'll let readers decide if you're looney, a liar or just plain stupid.
I posted this link:
http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html
This is shown in the red-outlined URL in your page copy of my post.
You somehow managed to change it:
http://www.biblehistory.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html
Using your changed URL, you then marched out to left field.
LOL!
AlanF

allensmith28 said:
LOL! I posted no such nonsense. YOU posted it. Either you're completely looney, or a pathological liar.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
Wrong. You keep shooting from the hip.
In the OT, a city doesn't have to be significant to be called a city. Note Genesis 4:17, for example:
<< Afterward Cain had sexual relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Eʹnoch. Then he engaged in building a city and named the city after his son Eʹnoch. >>
How many people do you think inhabited Cain's city right after he built it?
Note Genesis 19:4-5, for example, and the story of Lot:
<< Before they could lie down to sleep, the men of the city—the men of Sodʹom from boy to old man, all of them—surrounded the house in one mob. 5 And they kept calling out to Lot and saying to him: “Where are the men who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we may have sex with them.” >>
How many men do you think surrounded Lot's house?
From "Strong's Comprehensive Concordance of The Bible", entry for "city" in the "Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary" section, p. 88; entry 5892: << `iyr: a city (a place guarded by waking or a watch) in the widest sense (even of a mere encampment or post). >>
From the Brown-Driver-Briggs "Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament", p. 746: << `iyr ... city, town ... 1. city, town, abode of men Gn 4:17 ... >>
From "Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament", Vol. XI, p. 55: << The settlements to which `ir refers range in size from small refuges to fortified cities. >>
Continuing to be mostly wrong:
Again continuing to be mostly wrong, and unsupported with source references:
Irrelevant. That scattering occurred a hundred years earlier, and those Jews were not part of the Return from Babylon.
And?
More or less as I've said.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
And?
I posted the URLs along with the quotations. Can't you read?
What of it?
Right. No problem for my argument.
 
 
You've lost the thread, my dear. See if you can get back on track: your denial of my argument that news of Cyrus' coming Edict could easily be spread among the captive Jews in plenty of time for them to get ready for a Return Journey in either 538 or 537 BCE. You continue to ignore this, but focus on a tiny piece of my argument.
 
 
There was one root cause for the 49 years of the Exile: the Jews failed to humbly submit to Babylon. -- Jer. 27.
The root cause of the 70 years of Babylonian supremacy was God's displeasure with the wickedness of the Jews and the nations round about. He forced them to serve the king of Babylon, as opposed to being independent. Whether they served on their own land or in captivity/exile depended on their submission to Babylon.
AlanF

So says someone too ignorant to answer the least of my challenges.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
Wrong. They ended in October, 539 BCE when Cyrus' armies conquered Babylon, called the king of Babylon to account by killing Belshazzar and taking over his empire, and installed the Persian empire as ruler of the Near East -- all of which events are described clearly in the Bible.
But you don't actually believe the Bible -- you believe Mommy Watch Tower.
You've failed to cite a single scripture to support your claims. Rather, you've just made bald assertions.
Your description of events is essentially correct, but your conclusion directly contradicts Daniel 5, as I have repeatedly shown.
Correct.
AlanF

By all means, show us how this should be done. And again, give your source references.
AlanF

Foreigner wrote:
So far so good.
Duh. The point is not about adding 70 to some date to go back 70 years, but what that 70 years means. Mommy Watch Tower claims it means 70 years of captivity and exile of the Jews, and total desolation of Judah. The Bible says it means 70 years of Babylonian supremacy over the Near East.
Nonsense. The Watch Tower's and C. T. Russell's notion of "the Gentile times" is unbiblical nonsense, based on a weak chain of speculation about various unrelated scriptures. JW Insider has shown that when one combines the references in Luke and Revelation to get something like "the Gentile times", one comes up with 1,260 years -- not 2,520 years. This is pretty much what John Aquila Brown came up with in his 1823 book.
More speculation contradicted by the Bible:
<< Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." >> -- Matt. 28:18
Yet the Watch Tower Society claims that Jesus was given MORE THAN "all authority" in 1914!
Pure gobble-de-goop.
AlanF

allensmitth28 wrote:
I'll let readers decide if you're looney, a liar or just plain stupid.
I posted this link:
http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html
This is shown in the red-outlined URL in your page copy of my post.
You somehow managed to change it:
http://www.biblehistory.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html
Using your changed URL, you then marched out to left field.
LOL!
AlanF

Already debunked.
AlanF

By all means, show us how this should be done. And again, give your source references.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
Your statements appear to be self-contradictory among various posts. Please set forth a clear timeline showing which king you think was appointed when, his years of reign, and so forth. Back up your timeline with solid source references. In particular, give source references for your claim that Darius "took the title in Nissan 538 BCE."
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
:: scientifically competent people
:: Unclear thinkers often spew out so many false or ridiculous ideas that debate, or even rational discussion, is impossible without clearing the field of the nonsense.
:: Keep in mind that Daniel had been made third ruler in Babylon by Belshazzar, with great fanfare (Dan. 5:29), and continued in a high position under Darius, so Daniel could well have known about Cyrus' coming Decree before it was officially announced. Daniel would then have communicated the news to his fellow captives, and it would have been spread among the Jews in Babylon very quickly.
Did I ever say that these notions constitute proof? No. What I've said or implied is that they constitute plausibility arguments that show why a scenario is possible. This is to contradict claims that the scenarios are impossible, made by Watch Tower apologists.
Of course -- unless Daniel or other officials decided to tell them.
Generally, of course. But when Cyrus' armies overthrew the city, and Belshazzar was killed, to whom would Daniel and his close associates owe loyalty? First and foremost, to Jehovah. And given the actual account of his praying to God shortly after Babylon's overthrow, he certainly was eager to see the prophecies fulfilled, and would naturally have expressed his eagerness to other Jews.
Pure speculation.
But my speculation is better than yours, nyah nyah nyah!
AlanF

Foreigner wrote:
So far so good.
Duh. The point is not about adding 70 to some date to go back 70 years, but what that 70 years means. Mommy Watch Tower claims it means 70 years of captivity and exile of the Jews, and total desolation of Judah. The Bible says it means 70 years of Babylonian supremacy over the Near East.
Nonsense. The Watch Tower's and C. T. Russell's notion of "the Gentile times" is unbiblical nonsense, based on a weak chain of speculation about various unrelated scriptures. JW Insider has shown that when one combines the references in Luke and Revelation to get something like "the Gentile times", one comes up with 1,260 years -- not 2,520 years. This is pretty much what John Aquila Brown came up with in his 1823 book.
More speculation contradicted by the Bible:
<< Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." >> -- Matt. 28:18
Yet the Watch Tower Society claims that Jesus was given MORE THAN "all authority" in 1914!
Pure gobble-de-goop.
AlanF

More incoherent gobble-de-goop.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
I either have given or can give proof for what I say.
I didn't say "just". I said this:
<< The Jews and other captives lived in the cities, like Daniel, and were generally business people. They were not farmers. >>
Probably I should have said, "The Jews lived mostly in the cities". This is based on the common understanding among historians that it was mostly the elite Jews who were deported. As this reference states ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-babylonian-exile ):
<< The deportations were large, but certainly didn't involve the entire nation. Somewhere around 10,000 people were forced to relocate to the city of Babylon . . . Nebuchadnezzar, the king of the Chaldeans, only deported the most prominent citizens of Judah: professionals, priests, craftsmen, and the wealthy. The "people of the land" (am-hares ) were allowed to stay. . . the deported Jews formed their own community in Babylon and retained their religion, practices, and philosophies. >>
Here is another ( http://www.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Ancient-tablets-reveal-daily-life-of-exiled-Jews-in-Babylon-2500-years-ago-389864 ):
<< Technically not slaves, Nebuchadnezzar allowed the Judeans in Babylonia to become merchants or assist administering his growing kingdom.
“They were free to go about their lives; they weren’t slaves,” Vukosavovic said. “Nebuchadnezzar wasn’t a brutal ruler in that respect. He knew he needed the Judeans to help revive the struggling Babylonian economy.” >>
And another ( http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html ):
<< The Jewish people survived in Babylon because the Babylonian policy allowed the Jews to settle in towns and villages along the Chebar River, which was an irrigation channel. The Jews were allowed to live together in communities, they were allowed to farm and perform other sorts of labor to earn income. Many Jews eventually became wealthy. This was probably because of the influence of certain Jews who ministered in the palace of Babylon, like Daniel and his friends. >>
People who live "in towns and villages" are also known as people who live in cities in the Bible, since in OT usage a "city" can mean what we today call a village of a few dozen people.
My above references prove that it is you who don't understand. The above quotations clearly show that farming by the Jews was a tiny part of farming in Babylonia.
It's also called eisegesis -- something that Watch Tower followers are very good at.
Right, because that is what the appropriate scriptures actually say. Of course, I have repeatedly quoted them to prove this.
Let's look at the rest of the relevant context of Jer. 25:
<< 8 “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘“Because you would not obey my words, 9 I am sending for all the families of the north,” declares Jehovah, “sending for King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of horror and something to whistle at and a perpetual ruin. 10 I will put an end to the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing from them, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’
12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time. >>
In context, then, and in view of my above-quoted references, the phrase "the land will become ruined (or desolated)" means that the land will become largely devoid of inhabitants and will contain a mere ruined shadow of its once vibrant community. Furthermore, verse 9 says that this happens to "this land and ... its inhabitants and ... all these surrounding nations." And "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years." Which nations? The Jews and the nations round about.
Because we know that many of the "nations round about" did not go into captivity at all, much less for 70 years, the phrase "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years" cannot mean that they would all become captive for 70 years.
And as I have repeatedly shown, Jer. 27  and 29:10 prove that neither the Jews nor any other nation round about were firmly destined to go into captivity, but were firmly destined to serve the Babylonian hegemony for 70 years:
<< 'the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,' declares Jehovah, 'to cultivate it and dwell in it.' >> -- Jer. 27:11.
<< For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfil to you my promise and bring you back to this place. >> -- Jer. 29:10; ESV
And of course, the fact that all these things happened to the Jews exactly as prophesied, after they failed to submit to Babylon, is shown by the following fulfillments of Jer. 25:12 described in Daniel and 2 Chronicles:
<< 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: MEʹNE, MEʹNE, TEʹKEL, and PARʹSIN.
26 “This is the interpretation of the words: MEʹNE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end.
27 “TEʹKEL, you have been weighed in the balances and found lacking.
28 “PEʹRES, your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians.”
29 Then Bel·shazʹzar gave the command, and they clothed Daniel with purple and placed a gold necklace around his neck; and they heralded concerning him that he was to become the third ruler in the kingdom.
30 That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom  >> -- Dan. 5:25-30
<< [Nebuchadnezzar] carried off captive to Babylon those who escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia began to reign . . . >> -- 2 Chron. 36:20
When was Belshazzar's kingdom divided and given to the Medes and the Persians? In October, 539 BCE. When did Jehovah "call to account the king of Babylon"? In October, 539 BCE. Until when were the Jews servants to Nebuchadnezzar "and his sons"? Until October, 539 BCE. Therefore, when were the 70 years "completed for Babylon"? In October, 539 BCE.
Once again, it is you who are guilty of eisegesis.
Yes, we know all that.
Hmm, Jeremiah clearly states that if the Jews and other nations humbly submitted to Babylon, they would not have been deported, but would have been allowed to stay on their land. But that means Jehovah, through Jeremiah is contradicting himself by means of Isaiah! Wow, you've certainly solved many exegetical problems this way!
Actually there is a very good explanation for the apparent contradiction. You can find it if you look hard. Hint: Jeremiah says nothing about a sabbath rest for the land.
There is ZERO evidence, just speculation. And you've given zero evidence, just speculation that contradicts many clear scriptures.
Continuing to contradict Daniel 5: << God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end. . .
your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians. . . That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom . >>
Again contradicting Daniel, Jeremiah and 2 Chronicles -- and even the Watch Tower Society, which agrees that Cyrus began ruling over Babylon in October, 539 BCE.
Again contradicting Mommy Watch Tower on the dates. There is a difference between an inauguration that occurs at the beginning of a king's 1st regnal year and an accession to the throne that occurs when he actually becomes king in his accession year.
[ Mostly irrelevant exposition snipped ]
Again disagreeing with Mommy Watch Tower that Cyrus began his rule in October, 539 BCE, and that his 1st regnal year began in Nisan, 538.
Exactly the same logistics are involved in a 538 scenario and a 537 scenario, to within one month, as I've shown in my post above. Even scholar JW has admitted this.
But we all, including Mommy Watch Tower, agree that the journey must have been about four months.
Here's your problem: since 538 and 537 have pretty much the same logistics, there is no way to decide between them based on those logistics. The ONLY way to decide is by OTHER information -- information such as provided by combining the accounts in Ezra and Josephus, as I have repeatedly explained. That information breaks the tie in favor of 538.
If you disagree with my argument, then by all means show why combining Ezra and Josephus is wrong, or shaky or whatever you like. But you already know you can't, which is why you haven't touched it.
Indeed.
It is a simple fact that the risk of death due to earthquakes in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times as great as in the 20th century. That's easy enough to prove for yourself, by spending some time on the website of the National Earthquake Information Service and finding its calculator for earthquake statistics.
The other major sorts of disasters -- famine, pestilence and war -- are more difficult to find statistics on, but any careful study will prove what I said. For example, it was fairly common before the 20th century for 10-30% of the population of a fairly large region to be killed by famine, pestilence and war. While the 20th century figures are large in an absolute sense, they are far smaller in percentage. Why do you think the world has a population explosion?
In "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" Harvard author Steven Pinker marshalls a massive amount of proof that on the whole, violence in the world has declined. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature .
Where's your evidence? I'll warn you, though: everything the Watch Tower has published on this has been thoroughly debunked.
Actually it's the other way around. The complete failure of every visible thing that C. T. Russell predicted for 1914, and the total failure of the Watch Tower's claims about disasters since 1914, result in the claim that JWs are wrong about 1914.
LOL! Which slave? Russell himself? The one that was comprised of all the anointed since 1919? Or the one that appeared sometime after 2000 (sorry, I don't keep up with the dizzying rate of changes).
Remember that Russell got every prediction of visible events wrong. Some track record for "the slave", eh?
So what? There have been many turning points in history. Some more significant than 1914.
Why don't you write to Mommy Watch Tower and tell them to back off?
It's no ploy. It's a sincere and concerted effort to show in what ways the Watch Tower has lied and lied about its history. This is really a public service. Do you really want to be part of a religion that has lied to you so broadly?
Meaningless generic rationalizations. The fact is that at all times, Watch Tower leaders have claimed to be either inspired or totally guided by God himself, or Jesus, or the angels, for each action they've taken and each thing they've written. They continue in this tradition today by demanding that JWs treat their words and actions as if they came from Jehovah himself, even while admitting that they're fallible and have made many errors. This practice is called "talking out of both sides of your mouth". Of course, they're never in error right now, and God help the JW who disputes them.
Actually there was much archaeology available by 1875 to guide them to conclusions accurate by today's standards. But it appears that God did not see fit to guide them to it. For example, it appears that God failed to guide them to the year 607 BCE for the start of the Gentile Times until 1943, and to 607 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction until 1944. Such a joker God is!
Lots of people claim such love, and look what that has accomplished in the world.
So what? The point is that they always claimed that God guided/inspired them and they treated those with different views as heretics.
To a certain extent, yes. But plenty was available even before 1900 to allow the formation of accurate conclusions. For example, around 1912 one of Russell's closest advisors informed him that Russell's traditional date of 606 BCE was wrong, and gave him appropriate historical information to prove it. But Russell failed to update "Studies in the Scriptures" appropriately. The 1917 book "The Finished Mystery" also used 607 rather than 606. So did a 1931 booklet. So why did it take until 1943 and 1944 to get the date to what it is today? God certainly had nothing to do with guiding any of this nonsense, contrary to what Watch Tower leaders have always claimed.
Again: Nisan 538 BCE was the beginning of Cyrus' 1st regnal year -- not his accession to the throne of Babylon.
Try giving a source reference: "Antiquities of the Jews", Book 11, Chapter 1, Section 1 (a.k.a. "Antiquities", XI,1,1).
Yet again mistaking the 1st regnal year for the accession to the throne.
Nope. Again read my above quotations.
This is similar to what I quoted above, but it does not contradict my basic point: most of the Jewish captives, being of the elite, were businessmen or artisans of some sort, not farmers. They would have been concentrated in and near Babylon, in villages and towns and in Babylon itself.
Except that the many "people of the land" that remained in Judah forgot how to grow food, right?
Nice speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The overall point I made is that the Jews were close enough to Babylon that news of an Edict of Release would have spread extremely rapidly.
 
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
Your statements appear to be self-contradictory among various posts. Please set forth a clear timeline showing which king you think was appointed when, his years of reign, and so forth. Back up your timeline with solid source references. In particular, give source references for your claim that Darius "took the title in Nissan 538 BCE."
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
:: scientifically competent people
:: Unclear thinkers often spew out so many false or ridiculous ideas that debate, or even rational discussion, is impossible without clearing the field of the nonsense.
:: Keep in mind that Daniel had been made third ruler in Babylon by Belshazzar, with great fanfare (Dan. 5:29), and continued in a high position under Darius, so Daniel could well have known about Cyrus' coming Decree before it was officially announced. Daniel would then have communicated the news to his fellow captives, and it would have been spread among the Jews in Babylon very quickly.
Did I ever say that these notions constitute proof? No. What I've said or implied is that they constitute plausibility arguments that show why a scenario is possible. This is to contradict claims that the scenarios are impossible, made by Watch Tower apologists.
Of course -- unless Daniel or other officials decided to tell them.
Generally, of course. But when Cyrus' armies overthrew the city, and Belshazzar was killed, to whom would Daniel and his close associates owe loyalty? First and foremost, to Jehovah. And given the actual account of his praying to God shortly after Babylon's overthrow, he certainly was eager to see the prophecies fulfilled, and would naturally have expressed his eagerness to other Jews.
Pure speculation.
But my speculation is better than yours, nyah nyah nyah!
AlanF

Foreigner wrote:
So far so good.
Duh. The point is not about adding 70 to some date to go back 70 years, but what that 70 years means. Mommy Watch Tower claims it means 70 years of captivity and exile of the Jews, and total desolation of Judah. The Bible says it means 70 years of Babylonian supremacy over the Near East.
Nonsense. The Watch Tower's and C. T. Russell's notion of "the Gentile times" is unbiblical nonsense, based on a weak chain of speculation about various unrelated scriptures. JW Insider has shown that when one combines the references in Luke and Revelation to get something like "the Gentile times", one comes up with 1,260 years -- not 2,520 years. This is pretty much what John Aquila Brown came up with in his 1823 book.
More speculation contradicted by the Bible:
<< Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." >> -- Matt. 28:18
Yet the Watch Tower Society claims that Jesus was given MORE THAN "all authority" in 1914!
Pure gobble-de-goop.
AlanF

More incoherent gobble-de-goop.
AlanF

Arauna wrote:
I either have given or can give proof for what I say.
I didn't say "just". I said this:
<< The Jews and other captives lived in the cities, like Daniel, and were generally business people. They were not farmers. >>
Probably I should have said, "The Jews lived mostly in the cities". This is based on the common understanding among historians that it was mostly the elite Jews who were deported. As this reference states ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-babylonian-exile ):
<< The deportations were large, but certainly didn't involve the entire nation. Somewhere around 10,000 people were forced to relocate to the city of Babylon . . . Nebuchadnezzar, the king of the Chaldeans, only deported the most prominent citizens of Judah: professionals, priests, craftsmen, and the wealthy. The "people of the land" (am-hares ) were allowed to stay. . . the deported Jews formed their own community in Babylon and retained their religion, practices, and philosophies. >>
Here is another ( http://www.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Ancient-tablets-reveal-daily-life-of-exiled-Jews-in-Babylon-2500-years-ago-389864 ):
<< Technically not slaves, Nebuchadnezzar allowed the Judeans in Babylonia to become merchants or assist administering his growing kingdom.
“They were free to go about their lives; they weren’t slaves,” Vukosavovic said. “Nebuchadnezzar wasn’t a brutal ruler in that respect. He knew he needed the Judeans to help revive the struggling Babylonian economy.” >>
And another ( http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_treatment_of_the_jews_in_babylon.html ):
<< The Jewish people survived in Babylon because the Babylonian policy allowed the Jews to settle in towns and villages along the Chebar River, which was an irrigation channel. The Jews were allowed to live together in communities, they were allowed to farm and perform other sorts of labor to earn income. Many Jews eventually became wealthy. This was probably because of the influence of certain Jews who ministered in the palace of Babylon, like Daniel and his friends. >>
People who live "in towns and villages" are also known as people who live in cities in the Bible, since in OT usage a "city" can mean what we today call a village of a few dozen people.
My above references prove that it is you who don't understand. The above quotations clearly show that farming by the Jews was a tiny part of farming in Babylonia.
It's also called eisegesis -- something that Watch Tower followers are very good at.
Right, because that is what the appropriate scriptures actually say. Of course, I have repeatedly quoted them to prove this.
Let's look at the rest of the relevant context of Jer. 25:
<< 8 “Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘“Because you would not obey my words, 9 I am sending for all the families of the north,” declares Jehovah, “sending for King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these surrounding nations. I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of horror and something to whistle at and a perpetual ruin. 10 I will put an end to the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing from them, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. 11 And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.”’
12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chal·deʹans a desolate wasteland for all time. >>
In context, then, and in view of my above-quoted references, the phrase "the land will become ruined (or desolated)" means that the land will become largely devoid of inhabitants and will contain a mere ruined shadow of its once vibrant community. Furthermore, verse 9 says that this happens to "this land and ... its inhabitants and ... all these surrounding nations." And "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years." Which nations? The Jews and the nations round about.
Because we know that many of the "nations round about" did not go into captivity at all, much less for 70 years, the phrase "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years" cannot mean that they would all become captive for 70 years.
And as I have repeatedly shown, Jer. 27  and 29:10 prove that neither the Jews nor any other nation round about were firmly destined to go into captivity, but were firmly destined to serve the Babylonian hegemony for 70 years:
<< 'the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,' declares Jehovah, 'to cultivate it and dwell in it.' >> -- Jer. 27:11.
<< For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfil to you my promise and bring you back to this place. >> -- Jer. 29:10; ESV
And of course, the fact that all these things happened to the Jews exactly as prophesied, after they failed to submit to Babylon, is shown by the following fulfillments of Jer. 25:12 described in Daniel and 2 Chronicles:
<< 25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: MEʹNE, MEʹNE, TEʹKEL, and PARʹSIN.
26 “This is the interpretation of the words: MEʹNE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end.
27 “TEʹKEL, you have been weighed in the balances and found lacking.
28 “PEʹRES, your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians.”
29 Then Bel·shazʹzar gave the command, and they clothed Daniel with purple and placed a gold necklace around his neck; and they heralded concerning him that he was to become the third ruler in the kingdom.
30 That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom  >> -- Dan. 5:25-30
<< [Nebuchadnezzar] carried off captive to Babylon those who escaped the sword, and they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia began to reign . . . >> -- 2 Chron. 36:20
When was Belshazzar's kingdom divided and given to the Medes and the Persians? In October, 539 BCE. When did Jehovah "call to account the king of Babylon"? In October, 539 BCE. Until when were the Jews servants to Nebuchadnezzar "and his sons"? Until October, 539 BCE. Therefore, when were the 70 years "completed for Babylon"? In October, 539 BCE.
Once again, it is you who are guilty of eisegesis.
Yes, we know all that.
Hmm, Jeremiah clearly states that if the Jews and other nations humbly submitted to Babylon, they would not have been deported, but would have been allowed to stay on their land. But that means Jehovah, through Jeremiah is contradicting himself by means of Isaiah! Wow, you've certainly solved many exegetical problems this way!
Actually there is a very good explanation for the apparent contradiction. You can find it if you look hard. Hint: Jeremiah says nothing about a sabbath rest for the land.
There is ZERO evidence, just speculation. And you've given zero evidence, just speculation that contradicts many clear scriptures.
Continuing to contradict Daniel 5: << God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end. . .
your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians. . . That very night Bel·shazʹzar the Chal·deʹan king was killed. 31 And Da·riʹus the Mede received the kingdom . >>
Again contradicting Daniel, Jeremiah and 2 Chronicles -- and even the Watch Tower Society, which agrees that Cyrus began ruling over Babylon in October, 539 BCE.
Again contradicting Mommy Watch Tower on the dates. There is a difference between an inauguration that occurs at the beginning of a king's 1st regnal year and an accession to the throne that occurs when he actually becomes king in his accession year.
[ Mostly irrelevant exposition snipped ]
Again disagreeing with Mommy Watch Tower that Cyrus began his rule in October, 539 BCE, and that his 1st regnal year began in Nisan, 538.
Exactly the same logistics are involved in a 538 scenario and a 537 scenario, to within one month, as I've shown in my post above. Even scholar JW has admitted this.
But we all, including Mommy Watch Tower, agree that the journey must have been about four months.
Here's your problem: since 538 and 537 have pretty much the same logistics, there is no way to decide between them based on those logistics. The ONLY way to decide is by OTHER information -- information such as provided by combining the accounts in Ezra and Josephus, as I have repeatedly explained. That information breaks the tie in favor of 538.
If you disagree with my argument, then by all means show why combining Ezra and Josephus is wrong, or shaky or whatever you like. But you already know you can't, which is why you haven't touched it.
Indeed.
It is a simple fact that the risk of death due to earthquakes in the 18th century was about 2 1/2 times as great as in the 20th century. That's easy enough to prove for yourself, by spending some time on the website of the National Earthquake Information Service and finding its calculator for earthquake statistics.
The other major sorts of disasters -- famine, pestilence and war -- are more difficult to find statistics on, but any careful study will prove what I said. For example, it was fairly common before the 20th century for 10-30% of the population of a fairly large region to be killed by famine, pestilence and war. While the 20th century figures are large in an absolute sense, they are far smaller in percentage. Why do you think the world has a population explosion?
In "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" Harvard author Steven Pinker marshalls a massive amount of proof that on the whole, violence in the world has declined. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature .
Where's your evidence? I'll warn you, though: everything the Watch Tower has published on this has been thoroughly debunked.
Actually it's the other way around. The complete failure of every visible thing that C. T. Russell predicted for 1914, and the total failure of the Watch Tower's claims about disasters since 1914, result in the claim that JWs are wrong about 1914.
LOL! Which slave? Russell himself? The one that was comprised of all the anointed since 1919? Or the one that appeared sometime after 2000 (sorry, I don't keep up with the dizzying rate of changes).
Remember that Russell got every prediction of visible events wrong. Some track record for "the slave", eh?
So what? There have been many turning points in history. Some more significant than 1914.
Why don't you write to Mommy Watch Tower and tell them to back off?
It's no ploy. It's a sincere and concerted effort to show in what ways the Watch Tower has lied and lied about its history. This is really a public service. Do you really want to be part of a religion that has lied to you so broadly?
Meaningless generic rationalizations. The fact is that at all times, Watch Tower leaders have claimed to be either inspired or totally guided by God himself, or Jesus, or the angels, for each action they've taken and each thing they've written. They continue in this tradition today by demanding that JWs treat their words and actions as if they came from Jehovah himself, even while admitting that they're fallible and have made many errors. This practice is called "talking out of both sides of your mouth". Of course, they're never in error right now, and God help the JW who disputes them.
Actually there was much archaeology available by 1875 to guide them to conclusions accurate by today's standards. But it appears that God did not see fit to guide them to it. For example, it appears that God failed to guide them to the year 607 BCE for the start of the Gentile Times until 1943, and to 607 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction until 1944. Such a joker God is!
Lots of people claim such love, and look what that has accomplished in the world.
So what? The point is that they always claimed that God guided/inspired them and they treated those with different views as heretics.
To a certain extent, yes. But plenty was available even before 1900 to allow the formation of accurate conclusions. For example, around 1912 one of Russell's closest advisors informed him that Russell's traditional date of 606 BCE was wrong, and gave him appropriate historical information to prove it. But Russell failed to update "Studies in the Scriptures" appropriately. The 1917 book "The Finished Mystery" also used 607 rather than 606. So did a 1931 booklet. So why did it take until 1943 and 1944 to get the date to what it is today? God certainly had nothing to do with guiding any of this nonsense, contrary to what Watch Tower leaders have always claimed.
Again: Nisan 538 BCE was the beginning of Cyrus' 1st regnal year -- not his accession to the throne of Babylon.
Try giving a source reference: "Antiquities of the Jews", Book 11, Chapter 1, Section 1 (a.k.a. "Antiquities", XI,1,1).
Yet again mistaking the 1st regnal year for the accession to the throne.
Nope. Again read my above quotations.
This is similar to what I quoted above, but it does not contradict my basic point: most of the Jewish captives, being of the elite, were businessmen or artisans of some sort, not farmers. They would have been concentrated in and near Babylon, in villages and towns and in Babylon itself.
Except that the many "people of the land" that remained in Judah forgot how to grow food, right?
Nice speculation, but speculation nonetheless. The overall point I made is that the Jews were close enough to Babylon that news of an Edict of Release would have spread extremely rapidly.
 
AlanF