Grey Reformer

Grey Reformer is no reformer at all .... he is completely "Doubleplusgood" agenda driven.

No one here is being honest nor fair. They just assume as former witnesses do.

As in the movie "The Matrix" it all boils down to what is acceptable to you personally .... do you want to live in a peaceful, tranquil world of complete fantasy (The Blue Pill), or the dangerous and hard world of reality (The Red Pill).
If you refuse to choose, you get force-fed the Blue Pill, from the unplugged refrigerator.

We (they) are batting ZERO, after a hundred and more years of trying.
I suppose some delusions are helpful, short term. 
It keeps some parents from drowning their ugly babies.
 

... remember "Evidence"?
Faith Healers, Witch Doctors, and Shamans perhaps can "heal" a persons being hard of hearing (Or perhaps they had ear wax...).
Call me when they heal an amputee.

When you are claiming to represent Jehovah God,  the standards are higher than " ... we were all just self-deluded incompetent fools, looking to preserve our jobs and positions".
If they are NOT .... those PRETENDING to be God's channel of communication have forgotten to plug dat 'ol regriratator into the wall... and the "food at the proper time" is THERE ..... but it is LONG SPOILED.
A reasonable person might expect SOMETHING ..... ANYTHING "prophesied" to be right ...
Even a blind pig will OCCASIONALLY find an acorn.
How have  we done on that issue? (..and I am NOT talking about literal acorns)?
Hmmm?

With the COMPLETE and TOTAL absence of any EVIDENCE to the contrary .... yes, it does.

... the Universe does not care, as we are all biodegradable.

I rest my case .....

Yes, to see the term 6000 years come to its conclusion. The focus of the Watchtower with its view in world problems went beyond 1975. This I don’t need to copy/paste from an apostate site and agree with their wrongful conclusions.

Just because the writing department wrote phrases like “. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man’s existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. “The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,” said a conventioneer.” Didn’t define that Armageddon would follow on that year. To intelligent people, it meant we were one step closer to Armageddon since no one knows the day or the hour. That is true then as it is today if we use 2018. In 2018, we are one step closer to Armageddon.

Jehovah can pull the plug whenever he wishes, but he is allowing prophesy to complete itself. The next phase is the great tribulation when the sheep from the goats get separated, and none of this will matter to those that became a skeptic or left because of their self-inflicted conclusions.

Of course it should include them. But it would give opposers ammunition if the writers of Watchtower articles ever took personal responsibility for things they said. So far, I have only seen one Watchtower writer take personal responsibility in a public way, and apologize for mistakes he made while in the Writing Department. And he didn't do this until after he was disfellowshipped.
Whether it was the intention to have the public and other Witnesses conclude that the writers of Watch Tower publications were including themselves might become clearer if we look at a few more examples. I will just pick up a few more WT quotes that jwfacts.com had selected:
These first two are with respect to the failed predictions about 1914:
“There is no doubt that many throughout this period were overzealous in their statements as to what could be expected. Some read into the Watch Tower statements that were never intended.” Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose p.52 “There were also other expectations concerning 1914. Alexander H. Macmillan, who had been baptized in September 1900, later recalled: "A few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October. Had some been attracted by the thought of their own early salvation rather than love for God and a strong desire to do his will?” Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.61 The idea is clear that "some" were reading into Watch Tower statements things which the Watch Tower publications never intended. There will always be "some" truth to such a statement. Yet the Watch Tower statements, especially those from Circuit and District Assemblies of the time, had derided people as lacking faith, lacking trust in the Lord, if they did not read those intentions into their statements. The very motives of Watch Tower followers were questioned because they believed what the Watch Tower said.
About "1975" it was already pointed out that the 1976 and 1977 responses never made any effort to clarify that WTS writers and leaders were to be included in the explanation of the mistake:
If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” Watchtower 1976 Jul 15 p.441 Knowing that this was a missed opportunity, the Watch Tower Yearbook in 1980 finally added this about statements made during the 1979 summer conventions. (The brother who included this in the original talk outline was not disfellowshipped but was dismissed from Bethel later in 1980 possibly for admitting his beliefs about 1914 under interrogation):
"The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975." Yearbook 1980 pp.30-31 Then the Watchtower itself, just a few months later, said in the March 15, 1980 issue:
There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility . It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated. In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: "If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises." In saying "anyone," The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah's Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date. The first quote about probabilities vs possibilities was an echo of talk surrounding the 1925 predictions, too. But it also reminds me of what Ray Franz says about recordings of the talks that Fred Franz had been giving, found here on page 13 of 17 in the pdf,  http://web.archive.org/web/20031209184316/http://users.volja.net/izobcenec4/coc/9.pdf :
In his talk, the vice president spoke of 1975 as a “year of great possibilities, tremendous probabilities.” He told his audience that, according to the Hebrew calendar, they were “already in the fifth lunar month of 1975,” with less than seven lunar months remaining. He emphasized several times that the Hebrew year would close with Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year, on September 5, 1975.

Privately, that old mariner knew he had to wear an albatross-like "A" around his neck. But he did not wear the "A" in public as a scarlet letter.  Instead, just as with other times, the Watch Tower publications blamed the 'rank-and-file' for believing as they did. The next three of the following examples were picked by jwfacts.com at https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/quotes/blame-members.php :

Since God’s authority and punishment of the Israelites are being questioned, why not ask him directly? Just donÂ’t wait for a bolt of lightning to hit you. Judgment will come later when your question gets answered. Just donÂ’t cry about it, when it does. Especially, when people know through baptism, but didnÂ’t keep their promise. Instead, they allowed former witnesses and world society influence their decision to rebel. Romans 3:22-31 Duck, Duck, Goose.

The laws of probability are not whether you compare apples to kangaroos, much rather than see the kangaroo take possession of the apple and eat it.


 

From an outsider standpoint of view, it would seem difficult to comprehend why God is patient. To a JW, it is as simple as understanding the structure in scripture. Therefore, the posted question is too conflicting to its meaning.

*** ws18 August p. 27 Patience—Endurance With a Purpose ***

We all want the new world to come as soon as possible. But we learn to be more patient when we think about how patient Jehovah has been with us. The Bible assures us: “Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) So when we think about Jehovah’s patience with us, we will also be more patient with others. (Romans 2:4) What are some situations where we need to be patient?


 
Now, if you have a better reference from any other God other than the true God of Israel, I will be happy to review your evidence. Since the purpose of disfellowshipping is to keep the congregation clean. Therefore as the above subscribes, showing repentance is the key. Can someone simply say, I’m sorry, and then everything is forgiven? Can you do that in a court of law? Can someone simply tell the Judge, I’m sorry I hurt that person because I needed drugs so badly, and the Judge releases that person out of the goodness of his heart. How far are you willing to exasperate the question?


 
*** w16 November p. 12 Organized in Harmony With God’s Own Book ***

MAINTAIN CLEANNESS, PEACE, AND UNITY

14 We can contribute to the spiritual cleanness of the congregation by following the direction found in God’s Word. Consider the situation in ancient Corinth. Paul had poured himself out preaching in that city, and he loved his fellow “holy ones” there. (1 Cor. 1:1, 2) But how troubling it must have been for him to have to address the problem of sexual immorality that was being tolerated in that congregation! Paul directed the elders to hand the immoral man over to Satan—in other words, to disfellowship him. To preserve the congregation’s purity, the elders needed to clear out the “leaven.” (1 Cor. 5:1, 5-7, 12) When we support the elders’ decision to disfellowship an unrepentant wrongdoer, we help to maintain the cleanness of the congregation and perhaps move the person to repent and seek Jehovah’s forgiveness


In this world, everyone who is guilty is innocent. That's what they want people to think. Are there innocent people? maybe in a real court of law. Does that mean a judicial committee holds the same standards as an outside court of law? NO! the Elders are there to see if unchristian conduct deserves having a person disfellowshipped. If the conduct goes beyond a judicial committee's capability? the affected party is duly notified to seek legal compensation through due process.

How about that. You took the words right out of my mouth. Before anyone can honestly criticize someone’s doctrine, they need to understand the principles of scripture. Perhaps, “James” will eventually learn scripture the correct way, by not making erroneous claims that can be corrected by true Bible knowledge.

If you did, you would understand the context of Matthew 5:3-12 with the emphasis on verses 10-11. Something Jehovah Witnesses have endured and will continue to endure from hostile sources.

So, let’s bring back the posted question without further deviation from someone’s personal opinion on other matters.

Since you were absolute about your comment, I was hoping to see some concrete evidence on your claim. It turns out to be bluster from the opposition. Let me know when your guardian angel decides to let you in on God’s plans, directly.

Meanwhile, when submitting proof. It would be well advised to understand the context.

You mentioned the Watchtower is not spirit directed. I’m not after your personal opinion, show me the proof. So, start from there. I will be no more than happy to review your submission.

Then, can you kindly prove this organization is not spirit directed since you seem to be absolute with your remark? Many religions believe in the same. Does that mean none are? Are you suggesting you are? Even though you seem to break Jesus commandments of love, and causing strife? It appears, that you are above God’s law to make such a statement.

How can one person believe in one thing, while doing the contrary? Maybe, while making comments that can’t possibly be appreciated by any Christian, there could be a more practical relation to the truth.

Either way, please provide this overwhelming evidence you seem to have, that the Watchtower is not spirit directed. I would enjoy seeing such proof.

As for secrecy. Other than former witnesses and present outsiders that make such false claims, please proved proof that Elders judicial system is done in secret, even though the congregation is eventually made aware of, peoples Christian conduct, and how the ARC was able to receive documents from the branch office by the congregation Elders. Perhaps, you might not understand the meaning of the word secret.

What does that prove, if his views were wrong? Are Witnesses supposed to follow a wrong instrument of God’s Truth?

I don’t recall, with your implication, when the Watchtower used Gestapo tactics. However, it wouldn’t have mattered, since Ray took his error in understanding to his grave.

Although if you have proof of such atrocities by the Watchtower, feel free to post them.

I wonder how many Catholic churches allow for the teachings of Sharia Law. So, let me know when the Watchtower starts to use waterboarding.

That depends on what you mean, new light. 1914 stands as it always has. Therefore, no one that I can think of has been disfellowshipped for an error in their of opinion they might have. There are former witnesses that have challenged the Watchtower doctrine by authorship and have been disfellowshipped, but only at a cost of them being wrong in their understanding.

However, the Watchtower is run by God’s Holy Spirit, not individual men as many former witnesses now contend, regardless of how that view is made by obscured opinions.

Since God’s authority and punishment of the Israelites are being questioned, why not ask him directly? Just donÂ’t wait for a bolt of lightning to hit you. Judgment will come later when your question gets answered. Just donÂ’t cry about it, when it does. Especially, when people know through baptism, but didnÂ’t keep their promise. Instead, they allowed former witnesses and world society influence their decision to rebel. Romans 3:22-31 Duck, Duck, Goose.

The laws of probability are not whether you compare apples to kangaroos, much rather than see the kangaroo take possession of the apple and eat it.


 

That’s why obeying God is good, and disobeying God is bad. There is no middle ground in which you can stand in a firm footing. Either you are a true Christian or you’re not. The one who will ultimately judge your mortal soul will be God and Christ. How does a reviler convince God his/her intentions were honorable?
However, the expectation is something many cling to. The Elders get to the bottom of all situations. The lack of reasoning shows, that a committee of Elders would wrongfully pass judgment on someone without the proper proof first. Even when the government needs to be informed, the Elders give everyone the opportunity to seek outside help and due process by outside authority. The problem there lies that too many former witnesses that now attack the Watchtower fail to see that they were given that admonishment that they probably failed to act upon because of their closeness to Jehovah, but has changed because social laws have changed, and there are many sharks preying to make money however it comes. 
 
Once again, those lawyers usually fail to put that admonishment in print for others to make that argument. Just like the confirmation of kavanaugh. The President now uses presidential privilege to not show 100,000 pages of kavanaugh's work in the Whitehouse under, Bush.
 

Do people have a need to argue an untenable point by extreme outsiders, just because former witnesses, other religious cults, and atheist have nothing better to do than insult the intelligence of people, which is driven by their own blinded hate?
But, since you asked. I will give you an example of how former witnesses like to think. Let’s make light of an individual, a blowhard that enjoys criticizing the Watchtower, and the GB. That in itself is not a charge that can be levied against this big mouth. However, the mentality of such people become cluttered by a simple truth. You can say or show all the disdain against an individual or organization all you want, as long as you keep that big mouth to yourself.
Then God will Judge you on your personal merits. But as soon as that individual decides to SHARE his disdain of others within an organization, then you are opposing Christ Message to true Christians, about causing strife, and divisions in the congregations. Then it is up to the Elders to get to the bottom of that person's issue. One thing they cannot do is allow that person to poison the minds of others.
HereÂ’s a simple outtake. How many people can honestly say, I go to work and openly criticize my boss every day? And think you wonÂ’t get FIRED at some point. LetÂ’s not clutter peopleÂ’s mindset with outrageous conclusions. This isnÂ’t Trump's world.
So, if that blowhard doesnÂ’t understand or refuses to make a change to keep the congregation with unity? Then the Elders would be correct to disfellowship or reprove such an obstructionist. Here is when people start crying foul. I donÂ’t understand why the Watchtower DÂ’fd me. What kind of cruel place is it, when people canÂ’t speak their minds? If you were reproved for being an obstructionist, and continue as an obstructionist, then that is where disfellowship comes in. So, a person has been warned to make the necessary changes. Yet you have former witnesses making it seem, they canÂ’t understand why they were dÂ’fd or why. They come to these forums spilling all sort of lies. I donÂ’t know why I was dÂ’fd, I was only cheating on my wife, and I love both women, and I want to keep them both. It's not the societies business what I do with my personal life. It's my life. Everyone in this world cheats. Everyone lies, cheat and steal. The Catholic Church allows drunks and drug addicts. Why does the Watchtower need to be so hard? Because itÂ’s not the Watchtower that is hard, its GodÂ’s law that need to be obeyed. It is through this understanding the Watchtower operates. So, those who criticize the Watchtower are actually criticizing GodÂ’s law or God himself for showing us the way to be good Christians with a good clean Christian life under the cover of imperfection.
Remember, you can drag the Watchtower through the sewer, all you want by your own thought, but according to scripture, once you cross that red line, then it becomes a moral standard dilemma, and it needs to be taken by the severity of that personÂ’s Christian conduct.
Now, in that person's mind, they can say, will wait a minute, even the apostle argued. So, whatÂ’s the difference? The difference is, everyone, back them were LEARNING from each other, and making adjustments accordingly until scripture could finally be used as a reference guide on how to live a Christian life under God laws. Just as Jesus rebuked his apostles, so can the ones in authority rebuke (disfellowship) those that are not in harmony with a good Christian life. Here, the mentality of some that have cluttered their minds with confusion, canÂ’t see beyond their rhetoric. To such people, look at the definition of words.
Rebuke:


The beauty of mentality is when people use it with reasoning, understanding, and wisdom. Playing to their own false assumptions corrupt not only the mind but the heart as well.
If a person shows true repentance, then that person can be reinstated. But if that person continues being an obstructionist? Then that person shows no willingness to reform. So, is disfellowship automatic? NO! Is reinstating automatic? NO!
 
Can imperfect men make a mistake? Yes, and if a mistake has been made, they would have learned the truth before publicly announcing a person has been disfellowshipped. The truth comes out, one way or another. Those with no remorse and fail to abide by God's laws, and have been baptized to do just that, then God expects that person to keep their promise, and if not, there is no middle ground, maybe I'll support this but not that, such person cannot be part of unity by being an obstructionist.
 
(James 5:13-16) 13 Is there anyone suffering hardship among you? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is there anyone sick among you? Let him call the elders of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him, applying oil to him in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect.
Who will not inherit the earth?  1 Corinthians 6:9-10  and still be part of Christ body.

There is a purpose for the GB to fulfill God’s promise to humanity, what is yours as an outsider. The day, God chooses you as his representative, you too can fly on an $11,000 dollar ticket, since it would be proving your worth to God. Although, there might be an exaggeration when flying coach.