FelixCA

Unfortunately, I don’t share your views and value about, bad association. I am not here for the association but rather show how Ex’JW’s distort Watchtower publications to benefit what is clearly a misapplication of them. The 1943 Watchtower that was posted by Anna comes to show, how vital it is to have good expectations rather than try to satisfy the status quo. It also appears this is being done with the claim of being an active member whereas if these thoughts and outdrawn misguided conclusions were set before the congregation, they would have nothing to do with such ideology. Therefore, this place has become a bully pulpit for misinformation, nothing more. I can understand your need to receive opposition input to frame your own books, however, that in itself is no excuse to malign, or distort the truth. Another area of how the early brethren dealt with issues, was by being direct and frank. A characterization of Fred, seen as a hardnose can be applied to Raymond in private since he was hypocritical in public, but how the early Bible Students which Fred was baptized under and the Jehovah Witnesses that took a different direction. This example on an exchange comes to mind. Dear Brother Woodworth:- Your editorial of July 8, 1931, entitled "Bible Students Radio Echo", has been read with much interest. Both you and I have often gloried in the privilege of scripturally refuting the audacious claims of the various Babylonian sects who boast that they constitute the only divine channel and repository of all truth. How often have you punctured the pompous pretensions of popes, priests, and ministers who have said that they possess God-given authority to judge and excommunicate all dissenters from their views, no matter how conscientious and devout such "heretics" might be! We have both known and long taught that the Christian is called unto liberty, and that every child of God is divinely authorized to preach the Truth as he sees it. Is it possible that we are forgetting these past sound teachings and have come to ignore that precious heritage of Christian liberty that has long been ours? Are we now willing to adopt the "human ordination" arguments policies of the clergy whom we have so strenuously condemned? Are we now ready to consign to everlasting destruction sincere Christians who have done no wrong greater than that of proclaiming Christ's Kingdom without first having been authorized by man or by a man-made organization? I cannot bring myself to believe, dear Brother Woodworth, that you and thousands of other Bible Students or Witnesses of Jehovah are giving your willing assent to such God-dishonoring theories and practices as your article implies. Hence, in the spirit of the Golden Rule, and with no thought whatsoever of retaliation, I write this letter in the hope that I may help you to arouse yourself from the spiritual stupor into which circumstances seem to have gradually forced you, manifestly against your better judgment. In your attack against brethren who are preaching the Kingdom message without authority from the Society, you make no attempt to show that they are teaching error. Your argument is that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the only instrument that the Lord would possibly use to proclaim Christ's Kingdom (although no scriptural reason for such a conclusion is given); and upon this premise you reason that any independent effort to proclaim the Truth is displeasing to the Lord, no matter how sincere or how effective such an effort may be, and that the Lord will vengefully visit upon such tellers of His Truth swift and lasting destruction. You will agree, I am sure, that Jesus is the Head of His church, and that all laws governing that body must come from Him. In spite of this, you have lent your name to a wholesale condemnation of consecrated Christians--your brethren--who are proclaiming the Kingdom message because they love it; and in support of your rash action you have not attempted to produce any authorization from the divinely-appointed Head of the church-evidently for the very obvious reason that no such authorization exists. Haman Class seek to Monopolize Both you and I well know that after the apostles fell asleep the early church departed from the faith and from the freedom in Christ which the Lord and His apostles had instituted. Priests and bishops then began to usurp authority; to claim a monopoly of the Truth, and to assert an autocratic control over believers. They claimed infallibility for the pope; all independent Bible study and teaching was banned; the priceless heritage of Christian liberty was taken away; and thus was brought about that dark, dismal period in the church's history during which thousands of Christians were burned at the stake or otherwise cruelly mistreated, when they tried to break away from that unauthorized, unchristian bondage of men and claim the liberty wherewith Christ had made them free. Finally, a successful break for liberty was made and the Protestant Reformation was launched. But one after another of the Protestant sects soon fell away to the very same error against which they had protested; boastingly to assert that they had the power to open and shut the doors of heaven to whomsoever they would. Is history again repeating itself? This is the kind of openness the Watchtower framers had. Did, it make these people less qualified for their openness, and direct approach? Perhaps, you yourself would suggest this can be seen as a bad association. If this is the case, it would be applied to justify the end means, not the truth. This type of OPED’s can be seen throughout the Watchtower history, including the Zion Tower. Also, with this illustration, it should be able to give more clarity to other issues.

It could be, that’s the problem. Loyalty. I wouldn’t lose my personal relationship with God, for the sake of writing a book that is being collaborated by someone who is clearly a bad association and influence my decision to have an input of that book, right or wrong. Proverbs 3:3-13, 1 Corinthians 15:33 Too much of that kind have, authored books about the Watchtower, that allowed misinterpreted claims to stand. Raymond was one of them. 1 Corinthians 5:11 That just means, the desire of this world still dwells in the heart and minds of many Christians, instead of willfully trusting in Jehovah for guidance if they have a desire to print. 2 Corinthians 6:14 Could this be the reason TrueTom and JWinsider conspired to remove this Allen Smith JWI is so obsessed about? When it seems people like Butler can be more obnoxious yet still hold an account here? That would lead me to believe this person was proving some false claims here. That type of action should be embarrassing and shameful.

It appears you have the same reservation as Raymond when it comes to fully understand scripture on an ecclesiastical level. Perhaps that’s why you hate Fred so much. Let’s take your comment about the 144,000 thousand that isn’t mentioned in scripture as a literal number. We both know this comment is a flat lie. But let’s see where you fail to understand the exegesis. Let’s take 14th part C of Revelation. We know the saints (anointed) were purchased for the lamb, would amount to men gathered from the earth that wasn’t tainted and loyal to Christ. This, of course, doesn’t mean sinless just in case you want to misapply my words as you usually attempt to do to confuse the narrative. These men are composed to reflect the 12 tribes of Israel. A symbolic initiative with literal numbers. Meaning, after Christ included others rather than just the Jews, ALL nations on earth were given that opportunity to serve in heaven as saints, and all the nations would receive the opportunity to be saved. Of course about the 12 tribes, we are referring to this literal number of 144,000 saints (anointed). Shouldn’t these saints be positioned in a specific place somewhere in the new heavenly kingdom of Jerusalem? Just wondering with the other numbers mentioned. I guess I would have to ask if you believe that we will get to see Jesus and the 144,000 saints in mount Zion, even though if we take that as a literal meaning, it wouldn’t be possible for millions that weren’t around a certain part of the world at that time to marvel and witness the Glory of Christ, since it would be impossible to literally see it from another part of the world. Ezekiel 37:22 Therefore, I guess all the nations that would stand to see Christ glory and victory from heaven is false, and shouldn’t be included in scripture. Perhaps I can see where you might agree with Raymond. A quiet man in public, but just as loud as Fred in private. Revelation 7:9 King James Version (KJV) 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; I guess that would be the difference, Fred was not a hypocrite to hide his true nature like Raymond. Did it make him any less qualified? I wonder when I read the historical facts about PETER and PAUL. Since we all should know, 144,000 thousand saints is a literal number, my question to Raymond and Fred early on in my life, was, if some saints were still earthbound, would these saints be the ones to automatically be raptured into heaven to complete the cycle. After all, everything would have to be complete and set in place in heaven so the heavenly kingdom would have full control of all the earthbound survivors. Now, I appreciated Fred’s answer even though it wasn’t an answer. If the Holy Spirit truly dwells in you, there is no question as to what scripture means. Perhaps I didn’t quite understand then because of my age, but it sunk in as I grew older. On the other hand, when Raymond set me aside, he expressed an opinion with regard to rapture. This is when I asked him to elaborate since scripture clearly states the accounts of Enoch, Genesis 5:24 and Elijah, Second Kings 2:11. After his comment, this is why stupid children need to grow up to understand, I left it alone. I’m assuming here since he never had kids of his own he had no patience with children. This, however, would be a good argument for the final rapture of the saints “if” there are still some left. Now, not everyone who partakes will eventually be of the anointed class. I had a second cousin that started partaking of the emblems. That was a joke since we knew what kind of person he was. That just means there are some that have a passion to believe. He eventually stopped. Now, all my nephews and nieces that attended Bethel, are successful and righteous in serving Jehovah without reservations whatsoever. They don’t dwell in the past and keep their eye on the prize, promised by God. So, which 12,000 do you think we should do away with? Luke 12:32 King James Version (KJV) 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. John 10:16 King James Version (KJV) 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Revelation 7:3-8 New International Version (NIV) 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, 6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, 7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000. Since you seem to be the favorite of True Tom and Anna with ecclesiastic wizardry, how far back do you wish to argue the interpretation of scripture? I say this because you are so good with grammar and words that people tend to admire someone for the wrong reason. Well, at least TTH. So, which ones should we dismiss, or where would you like to ADD to scripture to allow others aside from the 144,000 thousand anointed to rule in heaven as kings and priest? Now, don’t respond with Watchtower literature. I’ve had enough distortion on the subject. Stick to scripture if it’s at all possible. Just like the obsession you have with the 6000 years. Maybe if you look at it by someone else’s perspective. It’s pretty drawn clear you don’t trust or care for the Watchtower literature unless you find something to criticize about it. Perhaps this is the objective of this site and always has been. To find the same kind of people with no faith and a weak heart. HA1423 Similarly the pseudo- Barnabas, a very ancient though Apocryphal writer: "Consider, my children, what that signifies, He finished them in six days. The meaning is, that in 6000 years the Lord will bring all things to an end," &c. The same expectation as to the six days of creation typifying 6000 years, as the term of the present world's duration, continued, as we have seen, (see p. 230, &c, supra) even among the anti- premillennarian fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries. Only they explained the sabbatical seventh day as typical, not of a seventh sabbatical Millennium of rest, but an eternal Sabbath: - - a view generally adopted afterwards.

This would depend on how you see the operation of the Presidency versus the Governing Body. Who is anointed, and who worked closely with the anointed enough though they were not part of the anointed class. People seem to forget Brother F. Franz knew C.T. Russell. What CTR administrative obligations were and what he would delegate to a board of directors. Did F.Franz proofread the writing department articles to see if they were consistent with scripture, or was that a responsibility he passes on to the GB? The GB does that now. I can recall an assembly talk where Fred stated, that's what the book says, its here in print. NO one really truly knew the Presidents just like they don't really know the GB. Those are hypotheticals by witnesses that "interact" at some point with them. Therefore no one has the right to speak about someone they truly don't know. That's the bottom line if you want to continue calling ourselves Christian. The problem with Bethel at that time was a cleansing of apostates. Perhaps JWI lost a good friend by being disfellowshipped. But still, that's no excuse under God's law. Yes, Fred was the framer on how elders should conduct a committee to ensure the congregation would be maintained clean under scriptural bases. That didn't make him a hardnose, or an inhumane person to stick with the bylaws of scripture. That was part of the Bethel gossip along with his ability to understand scripture. Some people thought he wasn't qualified. That was a question I asked JWI. Fred was more qualified than anyone at that time. That's why he enjoyed translating scripture into different languages. There is far more that can be said, it would take a book to yield such information.

Yes, I can understand your sarcasm and your obsession with Fred and the year 1975. I'm sure your motive goes beyond this site into others that share the same view as you do. It was a very interesting year that brought many changes to humanity. This, of course, was the urgency Fred was referring to. Time was of the essence to prepare the faithful sheep for hard times too difficult to deal with. By god, if that revelation didn’t come true if we are here arguing about 1975. 2 Timothy 3:1-17 Therefore, your subtle perspective is still only your opinion, based on how you are viewing the information cited. Therefore, how can you justify Raymond Franz blatant disregard for Bible truth when he cited that others besides the 144,000 would join Christ in heaven. Give a scriptural example? You might as well tell people once they die, they go to heaven as Michael waits to welcome them at the pearly gates of heaven. If you knew Raymond, you don't need to read his book. 😉

I am afraid I disagree with that assessment. It takes much more than just having breakfast with the GB at Bethel to really know someone. You seem to forget, these are highly spiritual people that won't involve themselves in the daily struggles of their personal lives. They concentrate on the spiritual needs of all the worldwide brotherhood. That in itself is a monumental task to think of others before your own. JWI assessment is of an angry hateful person bent on maligning FRED, bottom line. Therefore, NO! it's not an honest assessment by any standard. Since you are an author, I would think your research is for the truth, not some halfbaked drawn conclusions by an individual that has made up his mind to align himself with opposers and try to persuade people he still holds the truth in his heart. I'm, sorry friend, the world doesn't revolve around JWI, for as much as you admire his limited knowledge of Bethel. I would enjoy hearing what the excuse is going to be, come judgment day. This is another indicator: · Who gets called "The Oracle"? · Who realizes that the primary scripture that stands in the way of his 1975 obsession was when Jesus said that no one knows the day or the hour, and then he himself toys with that very verse in a dismissive way by saying that 'now is not the time to toy with that verse'? · Who calls the non-governing Jehovah's Witnesses the "rank and file"? · Who writes all of the explanations for parables and prophecies as if they are doctrines from on high which cannot be questioned? · Who claimed that even doubting 1914 was a form of apostasy whether one stated it out loud or not? · Who would rant angrily that Jesus can't be the mediator of "every Tom Dick and Harry" but is only the mediator of the 144,000? · Who would refer to the Society as if it was not only the Lord's mouthpiece, but that its pronouncements were the same as "the Lord" himself speaking? Example: Here is how Franz put it in the July 1, 1943 Watchtower (p.205):  Yes, it was among the favs from the apostate site free-minds. I don’t know if they are still around, but it’s an oldie but goodie by opposers. I would encourage any sensible person to read the full context of “Righteous Requirements” for themselves instead of relying on a misrepresented, snipped. Although, I have no clue if Fred was the author of that article piece, if someone lays claim to being absolute it was FRED, I would ask for proof. After all, we need to distinguish rants from one another. The only thing proven here is personal resentment and hatred for one individual. The good thing, it’s all meaningless. *** w71 12/15 p. 760 A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation *** Once again, I would refer people to read the full context to understand how the presidency and the governing body worked at that time. It appears the misinformation is laying a foundation into a false claim. *** w71 12/15 p. 755 A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation *** A Governing Body as Different from a Legal Corporation I believe the topic of how the Holy Spirit works by different people has been proven by scripture which can be tied to the operation of the Watchtower. Ex’JW’s insist in combining everything to make their argument solid. It hasn’t worked yet. Now I'm not saying the early leaders weren't direct. If you asked a stupid question, you would get a profound hard response. One thing is dealing with imperfection, it's quite another thing to say they were doing things, for themselves. Only a blind man cannot see the advances and changes the Watchtower has adapted to by generation.

What expectation do you think the first-century governing body would have to send people out to evangelize the gospel of Christ? A person they despised enough to kill. Why, would Fred mention such an irrational thought. Perhaps what is false, is your way of thinking.

I believe the substantiated evidence comes from your personal thoughts and rhetoric. Unless you are blind to your own words, there’s no further need to share the evidence that is before you. If you want to justify the means, that’s not a defense from your conduct unbecoming a Christian. Philippians 1:27 Referring to the same obsession you have about Fred. How does the same type of obsession work? Fred’s obsession as you call it was for the 6000 years. What is your obsession against Fred? Romans 8:6-16 How do you see the many thousands that continued to college after high school at that time? Witnesses were encouraged to seek first the kingdom of God. This has always been a calling from the Watchtower. Should we think any less of those that went to college? Should we be thinking any less of those that decided not to be part of Bethel? It seems you harbor some kind of resentment for not having pursued a different course in your life you clearly hoped you had, instead of having spent time pioneering and spending time at Bethel. That shows more about your character, with personal ambition. If you think you lost out on something, it was never too late to attend college or some type of vocational to earn a better skill, and better pay if you’re into materialism. I entered college in my 30’s. So, don’t blame the Watchtower for the personal decisions you have made throughout your life. Hebrews 13:5 New International Version (NIV) 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. I have a college degree, but I guarantee you, I live a poorer life than you. Therefore, a piece of paper shouldn't make or break a person. How different was that with Raymond that thought the same way? Fred believed he could handle the responsibility given him. I wouldn’t characterize him as negative as you make him out to be, and evil self-righteous individual, but some of us knew Fred in a personal level. I will be the first to dispute your character assassination attempt. Proverbs 26:24-25, Ephesians 4:29-32 Once again, this says more about you than those you have disdain for since the subject about administrative responsibilities were for maintaining spiritual food. The process is the same even though it has changed from a presidency to the governing body. As president Fred still delegated certain responsibilities to others. No different from today. Wasn’t he referring to the first century governing bodies that didn’t think about sending out people to teach Christ gospel? What part of that is false? Remember don’t confuse the objective. It appears you are reading too much into the article. There is nothing between the lines. You misread your own tea leaves. That doesn’t help your cause just like it doesn’t help the cause, coming from apostates. *** w68 5/1 p. 271 par. 5 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time *** 5 Therefore, God’s seventh day and the time man has been on earth apparently run parallel. To calculate where man is in the stream of time relative to God’s seventh day of 7,000 years, we need to determine how long a time has elapsed from the year of Adam and Eve’s creation in 4026 B.C.E. From the autumn of that year to the autumn of 1 B.C.E., there would be 4,025 years. From the autumn of 1 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1 C.E. is one year (there was no zero year). From the autumn of 1 C.E. to the autumn of 1967 is a total of 1,966 years. Adding 4,025 and 1 and 1,966, we get 5,992 years from the autumn of 4026 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1967. Thus, eight years remain to account for a full 6,000 years of the seventh day. Eight years from the autumn of 1967 would bring us to the autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God’s seventh day, his rest day. *** w68 5/1 pp. 272-273 par. 8 Making Wise Use of the Remaining Time *** 8 Does this mean that the year 1975 will bring the battle of Armageddon? No one can say with certainty what any particular year will bring. Jesus said: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows.” (Mark 13:32) Sufficient is it for God’s servants to know for a certainty that, for this system under Satan, time is running out rapidly. How foolish a person would be not to be awake and alert to the limited time remaining, to the earthshaking events soon to take place, and to the need to work out one’s salvation! Wasn’t that the same assumption apostate’s use for Pastor Russell? That he, in a subtle way was saying the end of the world would come in 1914 when he never directly or indirectly made that claim. It was a wait and see. That’s always been a Christian view for staying alert to the signs. 1975 just happen to be just another sign of how humanity would become worse if God was resting. What part of humanity increasing lawlessness, corruption, frequent natural disaster, economy, etc. isn't a sign? Matthew 24:42-43 I suppose you believe the accounts of Genesis is unscriptural. I guess the words of the psalmist, and Peter is unscriptural and false as well. When did God give you this new light that we should add to scripture with your understanding? Or is it just a problem you have with a fellow Christian that makes it unchristian to harbor such ideology among Christians. Perhaps you had more loyalty to Raymond, but once again you are simply using conjecture to justify your behavior. This obsession with Fred’s obsession about 1975 was to confirm the theory of the 6000 years, not the end of the world, as you speculate indirectly. Whatever, was going on in the minds of your parents and your own, should have been on how to best serve Jehovah, since, if the 6000 years was a true indicator of worse thing to come, it would be better to serve as righteous people than to allow the deteriorating conditions soon to follow, distract us from our mission. If millions understood, why, should the actions of a few be exalted? Titus 3:3-7 New International Version (NIV) 3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Therefore, there is still no justification you can offer for your attitude and responsibility. This bears witness on how careless your words have been. However, it is pointless to argue an account with a closed mind. A person that has already become a judge. Romans 14:10

word. This is not a classroom and you are not a teacher to correct. If anything, correct your own mistakes first, just like it states in scripture. Matthew 7:5 5You hypocrite! First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Your behavior is a subtle way of poking fun at people you want to quietly want to degrade. My evidence was to prove your own fallacy. We should always keep an eye on the prize no matter what. Philippians 3. If God doesn’t reveal something to us, it’s because we have become unworthy. Then it becomes as Jesus stated in Matthew 22.

That’s good you see your grammar mistakes in order to stop your attempts of degrading others as well as their word usage even if it’s a common word. You don’t have control over certain words to make nonsensical corrections. Let that be a listen to you, that we are all imperfect and your writings skill “fail” just like the rest of us. Then I would have to say not only are you lying to others, your lying to yourself. This is a good example of not trusting you as a man. Especially when you forced yourself to come to the wrong conclusion by your expressed statement about quietly criticizing Fred Franz a man you obviously never really knew, but through some interviews and Watchtower publications you clearly distort. What does the *** w75 11/1 p. 671 Graduates of Gilead’s 59th Class Urged to Stick to the Work *** Graduates of Gilead’s 59th Class Urged to Stick to the Work What does the 59th Gilead class have to do with some witnesses failing to understand what was really happening in 1975? I hope you have personal experience with living that year as many of us did. It was even brought up in the congregation just last week, and it’s on video on how some mistakenly took the value and significance of 1975. Perhaps you could have learned something when the same kind of hysteria was shown by some delusional witnesses in Canada last year. That type of hysteria also started in Canada for 1975 end of the world nonsense. What people should really look at is the motive of certain people like this apostate M. James Penton that could have curved the misinformation but instead kept quiet to make it a talking point in his book, apocalypse delayed. The same kind of distorted rhetoric offered by Raymond Franz. A personal friend turned missionary in central America was encouraged to maintain their due course to continue their fine works given them through the Holy Spirit instead of thinking it was a directive coming from the Watchtower headquarters. There’s nothing wrong to give the same illustration given by Jesus action to send people out to evangelize through him and not the high priest that new the laws but didn’t practice what they preached. Luke 10:1-23 New International Version (NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two 10 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road. That is an inconclusive argument in your part to show bias, not actual wisdom since the Watchtower does adhere to the inspired word. Therefore, Fred Franz was correct is saying Jesus had their back and support. Its written in scripture for those who dedicate their lives to God through the true gospel of Christ. Romans 12 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW) Dedicate Your Lives to God 12 Brothers and sisters, in view of all we have just shared about God’s compassion, I encourage you to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, dedicated to God and pleasing to him. This kind of worship is appropriate for you. 2 Don’t become like the people of this world. Instead, change the way you think. Then you will always be able to determine what God really wants—what is good, pleasing, and perfect. With your illustration, it is more evident, the Watchtower expectation went beyond 1975. Therefore, the evidence itself contradicts your claim and argument. Now with your rambling on with CTR, I fail to see what the “end of the gentile times” in 1914 have to do with obscuring the year 1975 by some that didn’t understand the 6000 years. Once again, by your insinuation, you hold the Watchtower personally responsible for the lack of understanding some had, apparently along with your view. CTR had a presence of mind to understand what 1914 held with the enthronement of Christ as king in the heavens. He had no other expectation by his writings. So their early expectation about the 6000 years was 1873, not 1975. However, there are still some competing thoughts by the Bible Students as to the 6000 years. Redeker still holds the position of 1873 while other Bible Students have changed their chronology to 2043AD. None of which belong to the Jehovah’s witnesses understanding of 1975. Well, now, the Lord may have something of that character for us, and for all I know the Church may be here during that time of trouble or during a portion of that time of trouble. There is nothing in the Bible that says just as soon as the Gentile times are ended all the Church will be glorified. The Church may be here after the trouble is begun, perhaps. Perhaps. It is possible. We'll see. And we'll be content whatever we see, won't we! That is the situation, dear friends! "Content, whatever lot I see, since 'tis my God that leadeth me." Could we be otherwise than content with God's leading? We may be sure that all the leadings of our Heavenly Father and of our Heavenly Lord will all be for good, that we will have every reason to enjoy His leadings. This shows you are combining to separate understandings to fabricate an unconscionable situation. I believe, Raymond called it a crisis even though he created that crisis by his erred understanding. He shoulda stuck with the truth instead of listening to a failed man’s treatise, only to ruin his heavenly hope. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17703483 https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/24/teenagers-generation-in-crisis It would stand to reason that after 1975 6000 years if humanity would be entering into the 7th day when God rested, there would be evidence of, more chaos. I believe humanity has proven that point and has not disappointed a true chronologist.

Perhaps someday you should pay “close” attention to your own words to find the same deception you think Fred Franz was offering without clinging to the word “assumption” to make your case about 1975, "while not quite saying it." Upvoting what is clearly a misguided view by “witness” understanding just made my case stand on solid ground. If no one has ever asked you to resign, let me be the first to offer it. It is better to have never known righteousness. 2 Peter 2:22 You already have everything in common with Srecko, Bulter, witness and all that oppose the Org. Being lukewarm for the sake of fear is no defense. by the way "fact that he never every claimed" your choice of grammar here makes no sense.

Let me take a stab at this. Your claim is you don't have any reservation on the validity of Fred Franz talk. You mention your proof is not the manipulated version that can be found in any apostate site, most common AD1914. It seems to be the favorite with a greater amount of lies and nonsense. My question JWinsider, What did you mean by this statement, then? "I listened again this morning and got a slightly different opinion of it. I realize that Frederick W Franz was actually using deception, pure and simple, to get people to think he was saying one thing while not quite saying it, saying something only slightly different. And it was working very well. He had a good part of the audience "reading between the lines" as you can tell by their applause." What kind of a double standard are you claiming to have if the same result you think Fred was doing, you are doing also, meaning, being deceptive? Does this make sense with your updated explanation? Where's this Allen Smith comments to get a fair perspective.

Since you like to insinuate, allow me to state, If doctoral theology or ecclesiastical endorsement means nothing to a person that professes to have Bible knowledge, there is really nothing more that can be added for the wisdom of such a person. The exegesis defines and intellectuals understanding. Perhaps it’s beyond the comprehension for some. To some, it is clear what is meant in Romans 12:2 Can I take it to mean Anna and JWinsider are husband and wife? since you have the same form of writing style? or is it just another overreach in your part. Perhaps other things are far more important than personal silliness.

As usual. Once again, you are wrong to think I have any input on what others were saying. So, don’t put words in my mouth to make an insulting conclusion. What does selective service have to do with anything Raymond corrupted because of his action? It appears you continue to evade the issue on why the claim of apostasy was levied on him. If he was an innocent man, why did he evade having to justify what he referred to about 3 simple principles? 1. 144,000 interpretation 2. 33AD interpretation 3. 1914 interpretation Initially, he had the first meeting taped, even though he claimed he was wronged by not getting a copy. He wasn’t wronged as he stated since the first committee didn’t involve the allegation of GOSSIP, by many Bethel members. He could have simply stated his position but instead evaded. This is when a member referenced he resign. An innocent man would not have resigned. That just shows, either he was too proud, or the claims were true, not just on his position of rejecting those 3 claims, but also being involved in the Gossip of certain high ranking members teaching such a doctrine at the kingdom halls. So, your attempts of proof to justify Raymond’s actions are meant to obscure what really went on at Bethel, just as you are attempting to sway the same ideology for him. Therefore, your submissions are inconsequential.

I didn’t mean to imply anything negative. I have no knowledge of your personal relationships. If I made you feel uncomfortable, my apologies. Cynthia passed away supporting her husband to the very end. Any good wife would. Right or wrong. This is why Raymond left a bad taste on some peoples mouth. Being conflicted when he shouldn’t have been.

I figured you would use wordplay here. I had to swallow my pride to show your bias, with Raymond’s books. That doesn’t mean I will continue to indulge you in promoting a failed man’s ideals. 😉 The End: Eschatological Re-Enchantment 295 “They 'seemed stunned but refused to admit that they and they alone were responsible for the cognitive dissonance that was now so common among Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide'.'07 Later, in 1976, Raymond Franz, who was to become President of the organization on 7 June 1977, conceded that there had been a prophecy, but explained its apparent failure to a large gathering in a way that distanced the leadership from blame: 'It was because you expected something to happen.' In other words, as Penton says, 'since Jesus had predicted that no one would know "the day or hour" of his coming to judge mankind, the Witnesses should not have believed that they could know that it would occur in 1975.'108 The leadership also provided an exegetical explanation for the failure: 'The answer has been to recognise that 6000 years since the creation of man may have properly begun, not with Adam, but only when creation was complete - when God made Adam and Eve.'109 Noting that prior to Eve's creation, Adam had been naming the animals for an unspecified amount of time, it was argued that this time should now be added and considered 'extra time' for evangelism prior to Armageddon. That said, although the prophetic failure of 1975 was explained, and while it did not lead to an overall collapse of belief, the growth rate of the…” Why would such nonsense be written by others if Raymond believed on what he held as the truth? He was well aware the society was referring to the 6000 years of mankind, yet he conceded to a wide erroneous assumption that he ended admitting to. Once again, who was this man to decide to place the organization in such a bad light, if he knew full well what the writing department meant through the Watchtower publication? That means he was wrong to concede on an idea that wasn’t there, THE END OF THE WORLD IN 1975. That means you are wrong also. It’s clear you never really knew the man, just through his books.

Wrong again. There is no such thing as having a vote from the Holy Spirit. Once again, try not to obscure, administrative with the gift of the Holy Spirit. To give people spiritual nourishment, the responsible body has to be in full accord when receiving the same gift from God. Don't quote me Raymond's books anymore, that's insulting too.

Thank you for proving my point on how you view the GB. JWinsider used you as a "fine" example. He was wrong to do so since it was a horrible example coming from a meaningless person.

Try separating the 2. 1 by what opposers believe, and 1 by the innuendoes Raymond implied. Why would he found it a need to stipulate how witnesses would feel if 1975 wasn't going to be realized as indicated by the Watchtower publications. Your defense of Raymond is illogical. Perhaps to a weak heart, you will have success. Is this why you told TrueTom you couldn’t find anything about Cynthia when there is plenty of ex-witnesses to applaud her for sticking by her man? A man that failed as an intellectual and spiritual person. Sorry. I don’t hold him, his research, or books in high regards as you do. That means we have a difference of opinion with Raymond criticizing the year 1975, as though people thought it would become the end of the world just like any weak-minded witness. Word salads are insulting. When I prove you wrong, it is not conjecture. This is why defending Raymond is wrong. And if you bother to read the remarks in the WordPress, His actions had a serious impact on others in a negative Christian way. Who was this man to decide? This is a question he will have to answer for leading God’s children astray. A question that some here will have to answer for.

Hermano. Por eso me niego a aceptar cualquier cosa tangible de los sitios apóstatas. Sobre todo viniendo de Peter Gregersons. 😉

I see you are going to use my words against me. I find that insulting. 1975: ‘THE APPROPRIATE TIME FOR GOD TO ACT’ DURING the second half of Rutherford’s presidency most of the older time prophecies so strenuously argued for in the first half were gradually dropped or relocated. The start of the “last days” was moved up from 1799 to 1914. The 1874 presence of Christ was also moved up to 1914 (as had already been done in 1922 with the 1878 official start of Christ’s active Kingdom rule)...Governing Body member Bill Jackson smilingly said to me, “We used to say, you just take the date from this shoulder and put it on the other shoulder.” at most,” “the final few years,” all used in the Watchtower and Awake! magazines with reference to the beginning of the millennial reign and all in a context that included the date 1975. Do such words mean anything? Or were they used loosely, carelessly? Are people’s hopes and plans and feelings something to be toyed with? To fail to be concerned about those factors would be both irresponsible and insensitive. Yet theWatchtower of August 15, 1968, even implied that one should be careful about putting too much weight on Jesus Christ’s own cautionary words. Your characterization of me is 100% speculation. This is why we all have different opinions.

Then you fail to see the difference of what the Holy Spirit means with gifts, just like Raymond. So your own assessment in wanting to equate my perspective with Raymond is an over emphases in your part, since, I have no reason to subvert the truth. This is the reason why you can’t find any gifts since your thoughts have been corrupted by ideologies such a Raymond’s and perhaps others that make you believe the Watchtower is always flawed just like Butler, and Anna. Therefore, the blame of misunderstanding scripture lies squarely on your shoulders. You have a way of placing false statements along with sound statements that make both ideals simply a conjecture in your part. As for voting since you are changing the subject about the failed ideas of Raymond in his book, the 2/3 majority vote just like it is done now with the majority rule, is NOT applicable to the conscience but to a sign from the Holy Spirit. Men are capable of making mistakes, that’s a given since we are all imperfect. Waiting on a heavenly sign is something else for them to adopt a new understanding if need be. Here many confused individuals believe the GB make things up as they go along. The misquote of William Cooper in 1773 of Isaiah 55:8-9, that’s how God Moves in a Mysterious Way. Perhaps someone else will have another text in mind, John 13:7 this is a pun, not a misdirection. Now perhaps you would like to expand on what you mean by 1996 and the dishonest claim you have about the 16 years in prison? I don’t need to ask an Ex-JW with tainted information from apostate sites, I’m asking you that considers himself a witness with Ex-JW views. Perhaps this is the reason why you defend Srecko and Bulter. But, if anything, I get the impression Butler believes the GB to be equal to Christ, not above him as you state. This is why your attempts of correction will run unchallenged, for one we are talking about Raymond’s motive. Initially, he thought 607BC was sound but later accepted 587BC because of the treatise. Could it be, this was a decision to informally mention Carl in his book? The end results didn’t justify the means, and it doesn’t need to be in the book to know the man. Therefore, my comparison doesn’t squarely rely on his books but the man. Since you are using the strawman argument and believe you know the man versus his books, which one on Matthew’s could be compared to him with his actions, not motives, but actions.

Before there’s an ideological misunderstanding, I view the stewardship of 1914 as the faithful and wise servant and 1931 as the faithful and discreet slave. They both have the same context, but I like to keep them separate. That’s my opinion and rendering from a theological perspective. I’m not adding or removing anything from scripture. It is meant to keep past and present understanding of scripture interpretation honest by groups that held the Watchtower as their publishing base headquarters.

Are we talking about the same Raymond Franz? Where in the Watchtower literature does it state, 1. 607BC is not a relevant date, but instead, it’s 587BC. Where in the Watchtower literature does it state, 2. Russell prophesied about the end of the world in 1914AD. 3. Where in the Watchtower literature does it state unequivocally the world would end in 1975? The same propositions that Ex-JW’s and opposers alike hold against the organization. What good did it do Raymond to acknowledge those misguided ideals because a treatise was presented to the Watchtower and the Watchtower literature was misrepresented? 4. Where does it state in scripture that rebuke (reproved) Luke 17:3, and staying away (Disfellowship) from an unrepentant person is not Biblical? 1 Corinthians 5 Yet Raymond deemed it a misuse. Why, because his good friend was disfellowshipped. He placed his personal feeling above God’s commandment to show repentance. Acts 3:19 5. Centralized authority. Raymond found it a need to criticize the Governing Body, board ship. Does he not relate that such a group would amount to the same body Jesus was dealing with? Where in scripture does it state to defy all authorities based solely on Christ teachings? Another example of a false narrative. He was disappointed to have been passed on as an authority figure himself. If it was up to him, he would have reinstated the Watchtower presidency. One authority figure. That says more about personal gain than Bible understanding. What he failed to acknowledge was, when there were presidents running the Watchtower, that president had assigned board committees. I could go on and on, it doesn’t interest me to argue a failed man’s idea of criticizing in effect scripture to promote his personal agenda.

Interesting, is this the kind of methodology Raymond found himself in support of? How can “faith” be expressed when the Holy Spirit is generally misunderstood. For that, we would need to understand what “gifts” of the Holy Spirit are. Does everyone receive the same gifts? Acts 2:17 Do these gifts unravel to be interpreted by man’s own thoughts? Or are they an expression of guidance by Gods Holy Spirit, that man must follow. If these gifts were all equal? These types of arguments would be none existent. In Daniel God gave every knowledge to certain young men. Did he give that gift to a synagogue? The High Priest, the prevailing Jewish governing body? The apostles received certain gifts that weren’t given to faithful Christians. There is no need for a true Christian to supersede any ideology that goes beyond not understanding how the Holy Spirit works within the body of Christ. Matthew 1:20-23 I’m afraid Raymond didn’t understand this, once he fell from the grace of God. Can anyone truly say, who has an angel looking over them? 2 Timothy 2:2, 2 Timothy 1:5, 2 Timothy 3:15 True Christian follow and have faith on? To the meek, it’s always been Jehovah with the GB being exemplary men (teachers) to give us spiritual food at the proper time. That’s the ideology since 1931. Revelation 2:7 No one that I know of reveres the GB, in a negative way as in bow down to them but show genuine respect of brotherly love for them being responsible and accountable to God if they personally lead God’s children astray. Another area where Raymond failed. Matthew 18:6 1 Corinthians 12 New International Reader's Version (NIRV) Gifts of the Holy Spirit 12 Brothers and sisters, I want you to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 2 You know that at one time you were unbelievers. You were somehow drawn away to worship statues of gods that couldn’t even speak. 3 So I want you to know that no one who is speaking with the help of God’s Spirit says, “May Jesus be cursed.” And without the help of the Holy Spirit no one can say, “Jesus is Lord.” 4 There are different kinds of gifts. But they are all given to believers by the same Spirit. 5 There are different ways to serve. But they all come from the same Lord. 6 There are different ways the Spirit works. But the same God is working in all these ways and in all people. 7 The Holy Spirit is given to each of us in a special way. That is for the good of all. 8 To some people the Spirit gives a message of wisdom. To others the same Spirit gives a message of knowledge. 9 To others the same Spirit gives faith. To others that one Spirit gives gifts of healing. 10 To others he gives the power to do miracles. To others he gives the ability to prophesy. To others he gives the ability to tell the spirits apart. To others he gives the ability to speak in different kinds of languages they had not known before. And to still others he gives the ability to explain what was said in those languages. 11 All the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives gifts to each person, just as he decides.