Chioke Lin

It doesn't matter who started the discussion. What should matter, how do you prove the points yourself, with the bible without having to rely on the organization's information, since those that oppose the organization will use that information to mislead. So, who else can be linked to the opinions and theories provided? Can "google" be used effectively? In my experience, it cannot, since there is so much disinformation. We have to look at every possible avenue to prove someone is not representing the best interest of the bible. Let's look at barns with respect to a topic you have a great passion for, Gog and Magog. Persia stands in its proper place; but India, under the modifications of Greater and Lesser, is confusedly repeated at different points, while the river Indus is mentioned in the text as the Eastern boundary of Asia. To the North, the castle of Gog and Magog, an Arabian feature, crowns a vast range of mountains, within which, it is said, that the Tartars had been imprisoned by Alexander the Great. The Caspian appears, with the bordering countries of Georgia, Hyrcania, and Albania; but these features stand nearly at the Northern boundary of the habitable earth. Africa has a sea to the South, stated, however, to be inaccessible, on account of the intensity of the heat. The European countries stand in their due place, not even excepting Russia and Scandinavia, though some oversights are observable in the manner in which the two are connected together.” pp.654-655 Hasn't the organization mentioned Russia? What is the implication under barns? Isaiah 25:2. For thou hast made This is supposed to be uttered by the Jews who should return from Babylon, and therefore refers to what would have been seen by them. In their time it would have occurred that God had made of the city an heap. p 649 Of a city, I suppose the whole scope of the passage requires us to understand this of Babylon. There has been, however, a great variety of interpretation of this passage. Grotius supposed that Samaria was intended. Calvin that the word is used collectively, and that various cities are intended. Piscator that Rome, the seat of antichrist, was intended. Jerome says that the Jews generally understand it of Rome. Aben Ezra and Kimchi, however, understand it to refer to many cities which they say will be destroyed in the times of Gog and Magog. Nearly all these opinions may be seen subjected to an examination, and shown to be unfounded, in Vitringa. How about Godbey Commentary. 8. We see from this verse that Satan’s army, with which he essays to conquer the world, is made up of Gog and Magog. Now let us see who they are. In Noah’s family originated the trinity of races. Ham in Hebrew means black; Shem, red; and Japheth, white. Upon the subsidence of the Flood, Noah divided the world among his three sons, giving Ham Africa, Shem Asia, and Japheth Europe. Gog and Magog are only spoken of in this passage, <011001>Genesis 10th, and <263801>Ezekiel 38th. Gog means king, and Magog means the kingly people; i.e., the nobility. <011001>Genesis 10th notifies us that they are the children of Japheth, the ancestor of all the white people. In <263801>Ezekiel 38th they are elaborately mentioned as resident in Russia. Is the organization the only Org to suggest Russia? I think not. This is how you prove how the organization is correct and in the right track, regardless if the aggressors believe it or not. The point is, do you believe in the Org and accept the ones that are feeding you, spiritual food at the proper time. That should be the theme for every participant that isn't an opponent.

It appears your previous comments are not as specific with that date 2030 before it was mentioned by someone else. That was my observation. I'm just wondering why it is important to mention that date now? No disrespect implied, commentator.

Where have I seen this before here? If it made its debut by someone else mentioning 2030 in another topic. I can't seem to locate the poster. Why, is this time of interest, it seemed more of a correction for the year 2034?

That is a good start. Remember, you are dealing with an aggressive opponent that doesn't believe a word you say. It should also be noted, their words cannot be trusted, since, as you have mentioned, they lack the spirit of God. Their interest is to teardown the house of spiritual Israel. Ezekiel 7 has two parts in its context. The hour of doom, 1-13, and the desolation of Israel, 14-27. The opponent commentators have clouded those two components. How do you prove they are wrong with understanding the bible's interpretation? Remember, they don't care about what is written in the organization. In some Bibles interpretation, the context in 14-27 means Idolaters condemned, and 1-13, means Ezekiel's Inaugural vision. How do you defend what has been clouded by interpretation?

This seems to be the same concern the other side has. How can that concern be answered by way of the bible without it being personal? A minster of Christ should be aware of that also. Why not focus on the interpretation of Ezekiel 7? Then we can get to Ezekiel 38, and Revelation 20, step by step.

Let's take a look at a commentator's objection. "If you go back to Ezekiel 7 and read from the beginning, you will see who receives the message. It wasn't to the nations of the world, it was to Israel, God's people under covenant. Scripture is consistent - who is "Israel" today?" The beginning of the passage is referring to Israel. But it is also speaking to the kind of destruction humanity will have, come judgment day. Revelation. Now, is the organization the only one of what the beginning of Ezekiel 7 is stating, The hour of doom? The Hour of Doom: -- The events recorded in this chapter occurred in the fifty-first year of the captivity of the Jews. Let me ask you to consider the extreme minuteness of the prophecies with regard to Babylon, made one hundred and fifty years before they were accomplished. It was predicted (Isa 45:1) that Cyrus, the king of Persia, should be its conqueror; and this was fulfilled, for it was the Persian troops, commanded by Cyrus, who captured the city. It was predicted (Isa 44:27) that the river Euphrates should be dried up before the city was taken; and this was fulfilled when the soldiers of Cyrus, with incredible labour, diverted it from its course, and thus "laid a snare for Babylon." It was predicted (Isa 45:1) that, when the city was taken, its "gates should not be shut"; and this was fulfilled, for the historian records that had the gates leading from the river to the city been shut, the Persians would have been inclosed in a net, from which they could never have escaped. It was predicted (Jer 1: 24) that on the night of the capture the Babylonians would be given up to intemperance: "I have laid a snare for thee, and thou art also taken, O Babylon, and thou wast not aware thou art found and also caught" (Jer 51:57) -- "And I will make drunk her princes and her wise men, her captains and her rulers, and her mighty men; and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake"; and this was fulfilled, for Cyrus selected the occasion of a great festival for entering the city; and Herodotus (as quoted by Dr. Keith) relates that the inhabitants were given up to revelling and dancing -- that the guards were drinking before the palace when the Persians rushed upon and slew them, and that the monarch and the princes and the captains were slain at a feast. (from The Biblical Illustrator.) Here, we can see the word "faithful" was used to disguise a misstep in interpretation, rather than using the word, disobedience. A trick that is used to deflect. III. succeed in his transcendent crime of founding the Second Empire in France, and thereafter he will despise the will of the people, in destroying the freedom of the press, and will hasten the hour of doom by all the surprising splendours and follies of the Imperial court at Compiegne. The Bible reiterates the lesson for all rulers, all governments, all individuals: that a limit of transgression has been fixed, beyond which judgment waits. Presumptuous sins, therefore, hasten the hour of judgment. (from The Biblical Illustrator.) Here, the bible illustrator is referring to all the nations. *** w58 11/1 p. 654 par. 40 Why the Divine Will International Assembly Resolved *** 40 We must do this. The handwriting has appeared on the walls of this Babylonish old world, announcing the doom of Satan’s entire world organization. Christendom, who has cast in her lot and destiny with this world, stands doomed with it, to suffer a destruction in comparison with which the horrors of Jerusalem’s destruction in Jeremiah’s day will seem pale. The lives of countless sheeplike persons in all quarters of the earth are imperiled as the great day of destruction draws nearer. Our work is not done. Our obligation is to drive ahead with this witness work till the destruction overtakes a heedless, goatish world. We are dedicated to do the divine will. So this is our work according to God’s will for now. This is the work for which we have been brought to this hour. For us there can be no turning aside, no deviating, no slowing down, no uncertainty, no inside interference with the work. Here, we see the organization is talking about several components to God's judgment. *** w52 5/1 p. 266 par. 3 Determining the Year by Fact and Bible *** 3 Of this termination of typical kingdom government in 607 B.C. the Bible records: “And you, you knave, O prince of Israel to be slain, for whom the hour of sin’s full punishment brings doom—‘Off with his diadem, away with his crown!’ says the Lord the Eternal [Jehovah, AS]; ‘turn things upside down, up with the low, down with the high! I lay all in ruins, ruins, ruins; everything shall be overturned, till the rightful man arrives—and I will give him everything.’” (Ezek. 21:25-27, Mo) Observe that this pronouncement shows the legal right of the crown is to lapse for a long time “till the rightful man arrives”. When that “son of man” arrives it implies there will be a restoration of divine, sovereign-empowered government, but this time over the entire earth, as it says, “I will give him everything.” Here the organization is talking about the second part of Ezekiel 7 passage. The desolation of Israel. So, instead of confusing the issues, why not have a civil discussion about at least what Ezekiel 7 interpretation is.

This is very true commentator. That's why we need to be cautious on how we interact with others. Once again, 2 wrongs don't make a right. What is the best bible evidence. Throwing so many bible texts don't work, with a serious bible discussion. There is interpretation on top of interpretation to consider. In some cases, a text can be debated word for word.

Those, God has given the insight to understand the bible. Those that can feed God's sheep without putting their own spin on the bible. How many Christian religions are out there that are being condemned for Christ teachings? I'm not talking about being condemned by what faults they have, but on doing what the bible describes as preaching the good news. I see that condemnation here every day. We can all have an understanding of the bible, some more than others. Who is adding to the words of the bible, have a difficult time readjusting themselves to stick to the bible when discussing it. So, that right or wrong, can be for one or all of us. God, does separate us all, from those with bad intentions. Those that charge fault are the worst. But, like I said before, It's not about a person, but what the bible has to offer. We need to stick with what the bible says, not what a person says with a bible discussion. Personal opinions are irrelevant to that discussion.

In some aspects of the proof they are offering commentator, both are pretty far off left field. So, two wrongs don't make a right for the bible. We can say, one is close while the other isn't. I do agree, a good decision can be found by correct understanding of the bible.

It seems that some of us might think the passage of Ezekiel 38 means literal Israel, like the nations of Israel thinks of it today. Israel forfeited the right to have God’s favor, so why the contradiction, if people think this is what the bible means in the passages in the book of Revelation? Coalition of nations 2. During the invasion (38:14-39:8) We're tempted to speculate on how the European leader responded to this remark-able series of events. No sooner did he guarantee his protection to Israel than a coalition of nations invaded Palestine and he couldn't do anything about it. Perhaps he said that the "forces of nature" were under his control! At least the Jews could build their temple without interference from the neighboring nations. The Lord will give Antichrist what he wants, but in the end, it will all combine to lead to his destruction. (by Warren W. Wiersbe. All rights reserved.) It does seem to indicate, whatever the coalition of nations sought in Ezekiel, the same coalition of nations will make an attempt to invade the spiritual nation of Israel. The same impression, other religious thinkers, write about. The good thing is, it’s not defined by just one organization.

For now, it appears the only ones worthy of being heard are "witness" and "BroRando." They seem to believe they have an accurate knowledge of the bible.

I have no idea about anyone else. In my case, I don't find fault condemning your accusation, when the hostility comes from you. Consider your own behavior before you condemn someone else's. Remember your own word's commentator: "Do as you please. I do not take you seriously anyway" Another commentator apologized, and then it turned out to be insincere. Just because, people don't see eye to eye on certain things, doesn't mean they should be rude about it. In this case, you and, witness are as guilty as those being rude to you. Civility runs both ways. I'm new to this discussion forum. Does this mean, I'm not allowed to express my own opinion without being kicked out? I have stated before, if anyone feels, I shouldn't participate, let them be heard. For some reason, I was tagged by a commentator to be someone else, and that accusation continues. This discussion forum shouldn't be about me or who I am, but what is posted as a topic.

Apostasy can be a component to false religion. So, members that attack their religion will have a say, how Satan will attack, Spiritual Israel. Chrome Shower Arm and Flange section 2 Since, therefore, all things were made by God, and since the devil has become the cause of apostasy to himself and others, justly does the Scripture always term those who remain in a state of apostasy "sons of the devil" and "angels of the wicked one" (maligni) (from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1) We cannot compare, when the pharisees were considering Jesus an apostate. They had an evil intent to charge him with heresy and blasphemy. To him for no logical reason. Anyone charged under the ancient law could receive a death sentence. Do we do that today? No, we don't in democratic nations. False religion will be part of Gog and Magog attack. A commentator mentioned Israel has not been attacked or taken captive for being “faithful” to God decrees. Would this be the same as saying, Israel was attacked for not obeying Gods’ Laws? So, the attack from the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, etc. can be added to the attacks upon Israel for God’s disobedience. To claim otherwise, it would be something we add to the bible, just like using the word “faithful” as a misstep to the bibles intent, since the nation of Israel was supposed to be "faithful" to God after they promised to obey his commandments.

Whatever ban means to you, I have no idea. But, whatever it is, It would be out of your own doing for being a nasty commentator. As you can see, you are around to continue your suspicions and hostility. This is not the kind of discussion, I'm looking for. To make it personal. It's better to continue the discussion started by the poster.

Gog and Magog will be a system failure governed by Satan. So, if it's political, religious, systematic, none religious, government, UN, all these are components of that system failure.

Commentator, I base my understanding on what is written on the B’rit Hadashah of Christ. I don’t understand why you would suggest, Christ words to mean, of men. KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 20 1 Next I saw an angel coming down from heaven, who had the key to the Abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], and chained him up for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, locked it and sealed it over him; so that he could not deceive the nations any more until the thousand years were over. After that, he has to be set free for a little while. 4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. (A) They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. (B) On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years. 7 [C] When the thousand years are over, the Adversary will be set free from his prison 8 (D) and will go out to deceive the nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magogd to gather them for the battle. Their number is countless as the sand on the seashore; 9 and they came up over the breadth of the Land and surrounded the camp of God’s people and the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 The Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 (E) Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh’ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done. 14 (F) Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 (G) Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire. (1-6) Thousand-year reign. (2-3) The defeat of Satan (A) 144,000 (B) 144,000 as kings and priest in heaven. (C) Satan and his legend (D)After the thousand years (E) After Armageddon. (F) After the 1000 years. People would have already been judged from the first resurrection will not have a need to be judged a second time, since they will have become judges themselves. So, to me, it will be a reconciliation for those survivors. (G)The second death when Satan is finally removed, those that listen to him after the thousand-year reign will be judged and immediately illuminated as not to corrupt perfection again. What you are referring to is the last judgment. It is not my understanding, but the understanding of what the bible passages mean without having to rewrite the bible for some intentional bad purpose. So, the passage you quoted does not align with the Org’s intention. *** w60 5/15 p. 313 Part 38—“Your Will Be Done on Earth” *** Part 38—“Your Will Be Done on Earth” *** w60 5/15 p. 316 pars. 23-24 Part 38—“Your Will Be Done on Earth” *** 23 At the proper time the glorified Son of man, the “last Adam,” will cause childbearing to cease. He will not let those survivors of Armageddon overpopulate the earth, or even fully populate it. Why not? Because he will fulfill what he said: “The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. . . . the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:25, 28, 29) Past doers of good things, like Daniel, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Moses and King David, and sheeplike ones dying now before Armageddon, will come out of the memorial tombs, doubtless early during the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ with his 144,000 joint heirs. (Luke 20:35-38; Heb. 11:2, 39, 40) In agreement with this, the apostle Paul said: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) The unrighteous, the former practicers of vile things, who come forth to a resurrection with judgment in view, will come forth to opportunities for everlasting life on earth under the kingdom. Providently enough room must be allowed on earth for these to dwell, bringing the earth to a fullness of population, to a comfortable density and spread of population. 24 The thousand-year reign of Christ is a judgment day. (2 Pet. 3:7, 8; Acts 17:30, 31) Nevertheless, Psalms 96:12, 13 and 98:8, 9 call upon the earth to exult and cry out joyfully because Jehovah comes to judge the peoples with righteousness and faithfulness. In ancient times when Jehovah was King over Israel he raised up judges according to the need. Those judges were used to deliver the Israelites from their enemies and to restore them from false worship to the true worship of their God and King. (Judg. 2:18) So Jesus Christ the King he makes the Judge, to deliver all earth’s inhabitants from their inherited weaknesses and imperfections. He will apply to the obedient believers the benefits of his perfect human sacrifice toward perfecting them physically, mentally and spiritually. *** w64 12/1 p. 729 par. 14 Out of the Tombs to a “Resurrection of Judgment” *** 14 Accordingly, John 5:28, 29 indicates two general classes that are distinguished from each other by the outcome of their course of action after they are resurrected. In John 5:29 Jesus uses the Greek word krisis only in connection with those who do vile things, but this does not mean that those who gain the “resurrection of life” do not pass through a trial or testing before they actually enter into their life eternal. In the case of the 144,000 who become associate judges with Jesus Christ in heaven, they have an instantaneous entrance into perfect immortal spirit life with Christ. But they have been on trial here on earth, for, as 1 Peter 4:17 says, “it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God?” Consequently, when they die faithful in the flesh, the end of their judgment period comes. In God’s due time they take part in the “first resurrection” and then “the second death has no authority” over them. (Rev. 20:4-6) They then become judges instead of being put on judgment.

Okay, thank you. I wasn't aware I was dealing with a subversive cult. I thought this form was for, Christian discussions, not a smearing campaign. I don't know who, those people they speak of are, Wally McNasty, Allen, Billy the Kid. Furthermore, I guess those people left a long-lasting impression. I thought the insults were coming from my poor English. Now, I understand, it's because of some delusion. Thanks again.

For a minute there, I thought English wasn't your first language, and you had a problem with grammar just like me. This happens to me, when I write fast, and then autocorrect changes my words and grammar. I think, it's not helpful to make such a big deal about grammar when we are all at fault.

Commentator Patiently. You are now a nuisance and hostile to this discussion. I recommend no one pay attention to your ramblings. It's odd that you use the word patiently, when you have none. You should convey your sentiment of twisting comments to the commentator witness that is twisting the meaning found in the bible. Owner, is there anyway I can block this commentator?

Thank you commentator for showing, you are referring to God's Heavenly government and not one comprised by the GB. Every faithful slave of God should acknowledge, God's heavenly kingdom will bring not just peace on earth, but will give man a chance at perfection again.

Dear commentator. Can I ask which government under the gb are you referring to? Are you referring to the government that will be composed of the 144,000 along with Christ in heaven? Or are you referring to an earthly government, the commentor you are referring to, speaks of? If you are referring to the Org and its GB, then it would be difficult to explain to others, the Org's GB composes a government, other than acknowledging, the Org in itself is just a tool of God to proclaims God's Kingdom. Jesus himself didn't establish a government nor an earthly Kingdom while he was proclaiming the good news of God's kingdom. Remember the discrepancy that commentator made with Revelation 5:9-10. Those singing a praise, are to God for the sacrifice Jesus made. Christ bought us at a heavy prize. Now, part of that discrepancy falls under the interpretation of scripture. Some bible use the phrase "10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” The Jewish Tanakh uses a better rendition for clarity. 9 and they sang a new song, “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals; because you were slaughtered; at the cost of blood you ransomed for God persons from every tribe, language, people and nation. 10 You made them into a kingdom for God to rule, cohanim to serve him; and they will rule over the earth.” My initial point was that we make the conspiracies within the bible as it relates to the reply I gave. We both became co-conspirators with the bible interpretation. Mine was by design. If we look at Revelation 5: 6 Then I saw standing there with the throne and the four living beings, in the circle of the elders, a Lamb that appeared to have been slaughtered. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the sevenfold Spirit of God sent out into all the earth. 7 He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living beings and the twenty-four elders fell down in front of the Lamb. Each one held a harp and gold bowls filled with pieces of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people; Here the book of revelation 5 becomes clearer on who is singing the praises and who will rule over the earth. God’s heavenly kingdom. How, by the word "cohanim" that illustrates what the definition is. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cohanim

Commentator, I have never seen the sign you have seen from Tennessee. I don't believe in guns. But, if you wish, you can post it for amusement. I would consider that a distraction from a bible discussion. But as another hostile commentator replied, he doesn't take a bible discussion seriously. So, I guess humor can find a place with some, that are not serious.

I merely suggested if you wish to use the correction pronunciation in the Jewish language, it has always been YHVH, and Jesus is Y'shua. There is no call to get offended or to be offensive with your reply. In the English form, yes, YHWH and Jesus would be appropriate. I did not recommend the usage of Yahovah for the English language. There is no need for hostilities commentator. As I mentioned above, there is no need for these kinds of distractions. I had not down voted you before today. I see, that is your pattern of disapproval. So, I will use your method from this point on.

I agree, there are some commentators making discrepancies out of the bible. Perhaps you should point out those discrepancies by means of the bible's language. We must not confuse the bibles meaning by unsolicited behavior. Leave that unsolicited behavior to those that have lost their way from, true understanding. We cannot change the minds of those that have fallen out of grace, but we can continue to proclaim the good news as faithful ministers. This forum should be a test of that resolve for the real world when we are confronted with the same attitude. Just like my bad English, I have to practice, practice, practice. Patience is a virtue.

Please! Please! Please! I'm enjoying this discussion. Can we keep it civil and without distractions?