JaniceM

On 5/31/2016 at 9:13 PM, Witness said:

As if what I wrote is not long enough, I find I repeated a few paragraphs.  So sorry.

I don't seem to be getting the responses from the forum.  Just happened to log in and saw some replies from you and someone else.  I'll try and respond when I can.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This is assuming that the name was there in the NT at all. You see,  the condemnation is that your writers/leaders have inserted into the Bible a name  that is not recorded to have been found in the NT. Very serious stuff. They insert based on assuming,  not by historical fact. They use the Septuagint as their proof, but most folks know that the Septuagint is just the OT. Going on a maybe or we think so, is dangerous because with out facts to back it up, it is very easy to insert erroneously and thus mislead people. The Bible is very clear not to add or take away. There is no proof that anyone took the tetragramatton out of the NT. If you would like to discuss a scripture or two that addresses Jesus where your leaders have inserted jehovah I can start a thread

If it is very serious stuff to to add God's name in the NT, than it would also be very serious stuff for kings, priests, scribes, scholars, or translators to remove it from the OT "and thus mislead people."  However, God is judge.

If it is a sin or wrong to add God's name to the New Testament or Old Testament, than the same condemnation would apply to other words, scriptures, verses, chapters, passages or books added to many Bible(s), whether OT/NT.  I still fail to see the same outrage or condemnation.  Persons are concerned for the removal of God's name (the most important name they should know), yet not for the addition of words and verses added to their Bibles to mislead them in addition to the removal of the Divine name being replaced with LORD/Lord, GOD/God.

To have better clarity of the verses, I think it is best to know which verses actually should contain the Divine Name whether in the OT or NT as it gives us more insight as to who God is and know him.  The Israelites wanted to know what God's name meant to them, and Jesus said he had made God's name known as he knew him.  It is vital to know God's name and call upon it.

We could argue this matter, it's not here or there until kingdom comes.  Is it relevant to our salvation?  If you feel this is the case, then feel free to produce one or two verses you think misleads the reader by a substitution of God's name.  However, please stay in this thread so we can wrap this up as my time is a bit limited.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You are quoting something NOT the Bible. And when you quote sources of the Bible it is the Septuagint.  Think about that

The above quotes were to point out Bibles or holy writings were burned with the Divine name, and that may have included many of the NT writings with the Divine Name.  I'm not understanding the condemnation of including God's name in his Word whereas there is not the same condemnation for the way it was so carefully excluded.  We also still have a short for of God's name mentioned in the NT (Yah/Jah) which is included in the name of many Jews and prophets.

33 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Janice, do you not see how difficult it is to provide evidence that the name jehovah was in the NT, even the source you quote says it's not there, but rather "thinks" it was there  (George Howard).

It's just not there, and when a quote is in the NT, it is attributed to Jesus. Why do you think that is there? Your leaders have inserted the name jehovah in certain places where it fits their beliefs and not where it doesn't. 

It IS in the Septuagint,  no doubt about that. Just remember that the Septuagint is the OT and not the NT

Shiwii,

I understand your point of view although we are not on the same page.  All we have are copies of the OT and NT, and we can't say definitely that God's name was not also originally included in the NT.  A few other Bible translations have also chosen to include God's name in the OT instead of LORD/Lord, GOD/God; still less in the NT where especially Jesus would have quoted from the OT; or use all caps where there was a direct quote from the OT. 

Matthew 4:10     New American Standard Bible  - Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Matthew 4:10  New Living Translation  - "Get out of here, Satan," Jesus told him. "For the Scriptures say, 'You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'"

Matthew 4:10  Aramaic Bible in Plain English - Then Yeshua said to him, “Depart Satan, for it is written: 'You shall worship THE LORD JEHOVAH your God and him alone shall you serve.' “
 

Reasoning being, one:  The divine name more than likely occurred in the original NT writings and scribes continued their habit of switching the divine name with Lord or God instead.  Two:  The Almighty God wanted his name known in all the world having been recorded perhaps over 7,000 times in the OT.  It would be illogical for Jesus not to have used God's name while on earth, and it should have been  recorded exactly the way he said it, assuming God did not give a command to the apostles or disciples to specifically forbid it's usage either verbally or written beginning with the NT.  This would not make sense.

I understand some scholars find including God's name in the NT to be outrageous, however, I think they should be more outraged with God's name being removed/replaced entirely with words that were not originally there (LORD/Lord, GOD/God) causing this confusion to began with.  For me it is outrageous that I spent a good portion of my life growing up thinking God's name is God.  I can only imagine how God felt about this indifference to his holy name.

At any rate, God is judge and will render judgment concerning his name whether we are right or wrong.  God has sufficiently told us everything we need in order to gain salvation.

I have not researched specifically ever instance of where the NWT has inserted the name Jehovah.  However, if there are any special instances where you think it changed the meaning of any particular verse, perhaps we can discuss that and it will give me the opportunity to do my homework.  I am quite busy there days so it might take me a while to answer back.

3 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

Well, i dont think they said which, they implied ALL Bibles are guilty of it.

 

Yes, that statement is a bit exaggerated.  Because most English Bibles did not contain the divine name at all, many witnesses will state that or because they may not be as studious as some others to make comparisons.  However, several English translations have worked to add it back in many places.

14 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

But you JWS say that it was removed from the KJV.

Hi Defender,

What they may be referring to are later translations of the KJB like the NKJV and others:

New King James Version - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

King James 2000 Bible - Psalms 83:18 - That men may know that you, whose name alone is the LORD, are the most high over all the earth.

However, some older translations still contain the name in a few verses:

King James Bible  - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

American King James Version - Psalm 83:18 That men may know that you, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, are the most high over all the earth.

4 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Again, all your references are about the Septuagint, which is the OT not the NT. So until you can produce evidence that supports your theory of the new being in the NT your argument is a strawman.

I do apologize, I thought I was responding to defender as it seems that chip is still on your shoulder.  To clarify the matter, I understand your main concern is with the NT and not the OT.

There is some proof that the original writings of the NT did contain the divine name, but upon speaking with so many about this issue, it appears they would prefer solid proof like a NT manuscript or fragment of sort that contains the complete tetragrammaton of God's name whereas we only have a short form of God's name in the NT that is also pronounced in the names of many Jews and prophets.  I'm also not quite sure the reason or backlash against JWs on this matter as this argument did not start with JWs, and neither did they make it up.  At any rate, below are some examples or quotes concerning these issues, which I'm sure you may already be aware of, so excuse me for being redundant:

1).  HALLELUJAH - (Hal·le·lu′jah). A transliteration of the Hebrew expression ha·lelu-Yah′, appearing first at Psalm 104:35.

(Psalm 104:35) The sinners will be finished off from the earth; And as for the wicked, they will be no longer. Bless Jehovah, O my soul. Praise Jah, YOU people! (NWT)

Rev 19:1  King James Bible - And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Rev 19:1 - New International Version - After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

(Revelation 19:1) After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, (NWT)

2.  "Some examples include Isaiah [Jehovah's help or salvation], Jehoshua [Jehovah a helper], Jehu [Jehovah is He]. In the entry, Jehovah, Smith writes: "JEHOVAH (יְהֹוָה, usually with the vowel points of אֲדֹנָי; but when the two occur together, the former is pointed יֱהֹוִה, that is with the vowels of אֱלֹהִים, as in Obad. i. 1, Hab. iii. 19:"^[96] This practice is also observed in many modern publications, such as the New Compact Bible Dictionary (Special Crusade Edition) of 1967 and Peloubet's Bible Dictionary of 1947."  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

(Isa'iah) [Salvation of Jehovah]; (Jeremi'ah) [possibly, Jehovah Exalts; or, Jehovah Loosens [likely from the womb]]; (Obadi'ah) [Servant of Jehovah]; (Zephani'ah) [Jehovah Has Concealed (Treasured Up)]; (Zechari'ah) [Jehovah Has Remembered]; Jesus (Greek, I.e.sous’; Hebrew, Jeshua, (Yeshua); Jehoshua (Yehoshua) meaning “Salvation [or Help] of Jah (Yah) [Jehovah/Yehovah].”

"The consensus among scholars is that the historical vocalization of the Tetragrammaton at the time of the redaction of the Torah (6th century BCE) is most likely Yahweh. The historical vocalization was lost because in Second Temple Judaism, during the 3rd to 2nd centuries BCE, the pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton came to be avoided, being substituted with Adonai ("my Lord"). The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.^[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

3.  "Origen wrote of the Septuagint: “In the most accurate manuscripts THE NAME occurs in Hebrew characters, yet not in today’s Hebrew [characters], but in the most ancient ones.” - http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/appendix-a/tetragrammaton-divine-name/

4.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton_in_the_New_Testament:

A passage recorded in the Hebrew Tosefta, Shabbat 13:5, quoting Tarfon is sometimes cited to suggest that early Christian writings or copies contained the Tetragrammaton.^[5]

Shabbat 13:5

— A. The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim they do not save from a fire [on the Sabbath]. They are allowed to burn up where they are, they and [even] the references to the Divine Name that are in them.^[6]

This same source quotes Rabbi Jose the Galilean (who lived in the 1st and 2nd centuries of the common era): “one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.”^{[citation needed]}

Laurence Schiffman^[7] views this as a discussion of whether to rescue section of the sifre minim (Hebrew language texts of Jewish Christians) containing the tetragrammata from a house fire. Another interpretation suggests this is a reference to Old Testament Torah and not the Gospels.^[8]

Although none of the extant Greek New Testament manuscripts contain the Tetragrammaton, scholar George Howard has suggested that the Tetragrammaton appeared in the original New Testament autographs,^[9] and that "the removal of the Tetragrammaton from the New Testament and its replacement with the surrogates κυριος and θεος blurred the original distinction between the Lord God and the Lord Christ."^[9] In the Anchor Bible Dictionary, Howard states: "There is some evidence that the Tetragrammaton, the Divine Name, Yahweh, appeared in some or all of the OT quotations in the NT when the NT documents were first penned."^[9]:392

Along with Howard, David Trobisch and Rolf Furuli both have suggested that the Tetragrammaton may have been removed from the Greek manuscripts.^{[10]:66–67[11]:179–191} In the book Archaeology and the New Testament, John McRay wrote of the possibility that the New Testament autographs may have retained the divine name in quotations from the Old Testament.^[12]Robert Baker Girdlestone stated in 1871 that if the Septuagint had used "one Greek word for Jehovah and another for Adonai, such usage would doubtless have been retained in the discourses and arguments of the N.T. Thus our Lord in quoting the 110th Psalm,...might have said 'Jehovah said unto Adoni.'"^[13] Since Girdlestone's time it has been shown that the Septuagint contained the Tetragrammaton, but that it was removed in later editions.^[14]

53 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

The point is, Jehovahs Witnesses cannot PROVE that Gods' name was removed.

Below are some references online to the divine name in other Bibles or some older manuscripts or fragments:

1.   http://www.eliyah.com/yhwhdss.html  - "Yahweh's name is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls over 2200 times."

2.  (Removal of God's name replaced with LORD) 

  KJV - Psalm 83:18  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

  NKJV - Psalm 83:18  That they may know that You, whose name alone is the Lord,
Are the Most High over all the earth. 

3.  https://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/the-divine-namespoken-by-jesus-and-early-christians/

" However, there were evidences found out from some fragments of original Septuagint which have excavated as it was from the Old Testament written in Greek. One of these fragments was found by researchers and gave them a dating from 50 B.C. to 50 C.E. Below are pictures of those fragments which contain tetragrammaton and had taken from Wikipedia’s site.  You can see the picture from this link site: http://www.eliyah.com/lxx.html"  ". . . Thus he denied the evidence of Origen that in the more accurate manuscripts the Divine Name was written in ancient (palaeo-Hebrew) script and the later testimony of Jerome to the same effect. As Waddell pointed out, Baudissin’s summary statement is “flatly disproved” by the Fouad Papyrus, and now a Qumran fragment of Leviticus ii-iv, written in a hand closely akin to Fouad 266, has been found to render the Tetragrammaton by IAW. Kahle is also of the opinion, and claims the concurrence of C.H. Roberts, that in the Rylands Papyrus Greek 458, at Deuteronomy xxvi.17 where the text breaks off just before the appearance of the Divine Name, the original bore not Kyrios as Roberts originally supposed, but the unabridged Tetragrammaton. It would seem therefore that the evidence most recently to hand is tending to confirm the testimony of Origen and Jerome, and that Kahle is right in holding that LXX texts, written by Jews for Jews, retained the Divine Name in Hebrew Letters (palaeo-Hebrew or Aramaic) or in the Greek imitative form PIPI, and that its replacement by Kyrios was a Christian innovation.^[22]"

"The fact is, according also to some Talmud that have found, there are rabbis who killed people with scrolls having tetragrammaton and who did not refrain from pronouncing the divine name. The underlying fact is that they gathered most of the scrolls with tetragrammaton and burned them all and have made new copies of scrolls of the Old Testament with Kurios/Kyrios. And consequently have scrupulously translated new manuscripts of the New Testament with Kyrios as a substitute for tetragrammaton and then buried their revised scrolls."

On 4/27/2016 at 11:38 AM, Witness said:

Hi Janice, 

 

Got your walking shoes on?

Your words, “Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit.”

 

 “From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections,”

 

Both these statements seem contradictory to me.  Even though there are conflicting teachings, unfulfilled end time dates, child abuse cases gone to court, evidence brought out by the organization itself that faith in anything like it is idolatry (still, identity to it is required), you still believe the organization is a spiritual paradise?  How do you figure? Or perhaps I need more understanding of your viewpoint.

 

I believe this view of the organization as a spiritual paradise is dangerous ground.  Considering that there are major problems, but allegiance to it must persist, each heart is placed in jeopardy.  Why should one tolerate major problems when we each are responsible for sole devotion to and in our service to God and Jesus?

 

 ^“Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;  for it is written,  “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” Rom 14:10-12

 

From the Watchtower:

 

"We find refuge today in the spiritual security enjoyed by God’s people as a whole." 
"Through “the faithful and discreet slave” and elders in the congregation, we are alerted to trends in the world that could endanger that security." (w11 1/15 pp. 3-7)

 

If we settle in under such a canopy of what man considers a spiritual paradise, not questioning strange teachings or another one’s hurt feelings, what could happen?

 

“For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.  While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.  But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.”  1 Thess 5:2-4

 

"They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace". Jer 8:11

 

“Spiritual paradise” can only be found within us.

 

"And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."  Phil 4:7

 

Should we hand over our spirituality to men who from one mouth teach a good and bad fruit? Their track record is faulty and cannot compare with Moses, Abraham, or the prophets of old who led people correctly.  If our rulers are misleading and causing confusion how can they be blessed with Holy Spirit?

 

 Your words, “I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible.” 

 

I should clarify how this happens.  If I was to spread the words I earlier stated to my fellow JWs after speaking to elders about such a biblical based belief, disfellowshipping ensues, and it happens every day.  Now, if I were to deny scriptural admonition to preach this new found enlightenment for fear of being shunned and then just walk away, I may be left alone and could continue in good standing with the congregation.  But, of course, this goes against scripture to remain silent.  

 

"Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name."  Heb 13:15

 

"so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."  1 Pet 1:7.  

 

The report given in Rom 10:22-21 is concerning this salvation given us by God through Jesus. 

 

"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Rom 10:9

 

We cannot preach this in the organization and avoid disfellowshipping, since this is a rejection of the image of the organization as a source of salvation.  Rev 13:15  Disfellowshipping is a cutting off, a silencing and a depiction of one viewed as spiritually "dead".

 

“I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned.  They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine”

 

Was the institution of the early temple ignored before Jesus came?  The early tabernacle held God’s presence.  Ex 40:36-38.  Later the temple replaced the tabernacle as representation of God’s presence among his people. 2 Chron. 7:16; Ezek. 37:26-28  The newly created Temple, Christ's Body,  through the New Covenant exists within the anointed ones. 

 

“We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands.’”  Mark 14:58

 

If we see a spiritual desecration of this “Temple”; an ignorance to its meaning as well as its spiritual understanding, we turn our back on Christ who is “building” it.  1 Pet 2:5; Rev 5:10  It’s original use and meaning was not brushed aside under the Mosaic Covenant, why would it be today under Christ?  The anointed one’s sacrifices offered are not animals as the Mosaic Law required, but it is their own lives used to “bear witness”.  Rev 20:4 God resides in spirit within these “living stones”.   (2 Cor 6:16; Zeph 3:16-20) They make God’s name known.

 

 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.  John 17:6  (John 14:20)

 

If anyone lords it over God’s spiritual Temple by their own authority, this is an “abomination”.  The gift offerings expected by God and to be given to the people by these “priests” has ceased under elder rule.  Rom 15:16; 1 Tim 4:16; 2 Pet 1:8; Col 1:10

 

I believe the opinion you hold (and it is your right) has become the opinion of the anointed ones who lounge within a supposed “spiritual paradise” allowing others to rule over them.

 

^“ So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,  which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.  Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.”

 

“Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”  which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?  These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.”  Col 2:16-23

 

The “worship of angels” is the abnormal admiration given anointed ones – the GB – over the whole of the Body of Christ. Angels are God's messengers, God's messengers are also his "priests". (Mal 2:7)  If the Body is to remain inseparable and to grow through its adherence to each other, superiority and ruling over other members of this Body shows that evidence of those lording it over their own body members as disconnected with the Head, who is Christ. Mark 10:42

 

“so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.” 1 Cor 12:25,26

 

This is hardly the case when the “Temple” is treated as such:

 

Anointed Christians do not feel that they should spend time only with other anointed ones, as if they were members of a club. They do not try to find other anointed ones so that they can talk about being anointed or meet in groups to study the Bible. (Galatians 1:15-17) The congregation would not be united if anointed ones did this. They would be working against the holy spirit, which helps God’s people to have peace and unity.  W 16/1 pp. 20-26

 

This truly is blaspheming God’s name and suffocating the Body of Christ.  The uniting of the congregation is through the unification of the Body and allows Holy Spirit to flow to the advantage of everyone. 1 Cor 2:13  The words of the WT are in severe contradiction to scripture and the building up of the Temple.

 

“For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.  According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.  For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”  1 Cor 3:9-11

 

If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.  1 Cor 3:17

 

If God calls something holy and it is for the life-giving benefit of all and through Christ, should it not be recognized as the primary source of Holy Spirit?  Little relevance given this Temple is no relevance given Christ; and he, as well as God’s administration become lower in authority than man himself.  This is the making of a mockery of the arm of God. Isa 59:1

Guess I didn't watch all of it, or it wasn't worth watching; a bit too defiant and inciting.  I don't remember much after the middle finger and balled up fists . . . if I can remember correctly.

Terrence Howard's divorce settlement with his ex-wife, Michelle Ghent, was thrown out by the court.  He said he only signed the settlement for she threatened to make certain personal info or videos public and it would have harmed his career.  Accusations went back and forth of infidelity, racism, and abuse.  However, I do remember on the stand, he stated at the time he was a Jehovah Witness and was trying to be faithful to his wife.  But others may have additional info.

Wonderful!

On 4/22/2016 at 5:43 AM, Stormi Todd-Hall said:

I read that he was no longer a practicing Jehovah's Witness....is that true...

Not quite sure, the world is so full of distractions.  I'm sure he had Jehovah in his heart.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I inserted the above from your last post, which I could'n't quote properly for some reason.  I would beg to go 6, but I think I’ve already been there J

 

It is pretty clear to me that you feel the organization has God’s blessing because of the accomplishment of what you call, the “preaching work”.  Although, remembering the quotes I had given earlier about serving God through such a thing, we find it is not needed.

 

As far as preaching, we also find many who do it and I am not saying they are correct. We could go on about the Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, Gideon’s International, Catholic Church….all preaching about a Kingdom to come, as well as Jesus, and adding up to billions of members.

 

You said, “Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth” 

1).

 What is the truth to you?  Is it Christ, 1914, the organization…?

 

You said, ”With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?”

 

Considering the opposite meanings that I have presented you from the Watchtower, I should ask you, what else are they lying about?

 

 You said, “Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness.”

2).

There you go; you hit the nail on the head.  This is what makes the organization different from any other.  Inside are anointed ones, but have you ever wondered why this is so?  It has everything to do with Matt 7:21-34 that you quoted.  As established from the quotes I have listed from the Watchtower itself, giving one’s obedience to an organization is idolatry.  It has been established as fact by the organization itself.  Yet, they continue to mislead, causing one to question just what is right but following the majority without question.  The anointed ones must follow in Christ’s footsteps.  What does this entail? 

 

They must desire to be found “clean” by God.

 

 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1

 

Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;  2 Pet 3:14

 

If there is any wayward teaching accepted, “double-talk”, are they without spot and blameless?  Can they practice idolatry and be viewed as blameless?  Ps 12:2

 

If God’s arrangement of teaching through anointed ones is ignored, are they blameless? The priesthood, each and every anointed one, has to be cleansed in order to part of the Bride.  Satan is their biggest enemy who seeks to destroy Christ’s seed.  His deceptions have always been based on deceit and lies, confusion and false sense of security which the organization teaches it provides. 

Chosen stars can fall through temptation and a gift of power.  Prov 16:5; Rom 11:18; 1 Cor 4:8; Rev 13:5; 13:15

 

“Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.”  Heb 4:11

 

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”  1 John 2:19

 

“looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:15

 

Wormwood is a “root of bitterness” - O you who turn justice to wormwood and cast down righteousness to the earth!  Amos 5:7

 

Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.  The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.  Rev 8:11

 

Water represents teachings in the bible, and while this particular water started as truth, it turned bitter and poisonous through lies by a fallen chosen “star”. 

3).

God allows a deception to fall on his people as a time of refinement and discipline.  Just as he allowed Satan to test Job, all who desire to truly follow in Christ’s footsteps are tested – by Satan, as Christ was tested by Satan on the mountain.  Our “captivity” to impure teachings is allowed by the Father in the end times.  If you were to approach the elders and say, “I believe the only way to serve God is through Christ, for he said ‘I am the way and the truth and the life’ and I believe this is the accurate way to God (Prov 14:12) and it’s the only way I’m going to get through the Great Tribulation (Luke21:36; Matt.24:24,25)….you are then following in Christ’s footsteps, and confessing Jesus before men.  Matt 10:32

 

What follows is likely a disfellowshipping, a mark of “spiritual death”, as you turn your back on the organization and is a continuance on the continued path to Christ, bearing the same disgrace he bore.   Rev 13:15

 

“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.”  John 16:2

 

“Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.”  Heb 13:13

 

Who was it who persecuted Jesus, but his own people?  Who persecutes and passes judgment on their own people but the organization? Which leads me back to your last scripture that Jesus aptly applied to the Pharisees and which can be applied to those in authority in the organization:

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU.  Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye?  Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

 

The only way the “wise virgins” make it is because they listen to Christ!  They responded to his call in repentance.

 

“I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.”  Rev 3:18

 

Those not producing fruit from a refined heart (Luke6:45,44), are lopped off the vine of Christ and cannot partake of the marriage feast.

 

This is an ongoing subject, and there is more in your post that I would like to comment on, but I think I’ve hit the 2 mile mark again.

 

I’ll be on the road for a few days.  Thank you for replying even though you are quite busy. 

I'll be wrapping things up by the end of the week, so I'll get the other mail out to you tomorrow perhaps.

1.  My experiences growing up among the churches was being surrounded by teachings of my soul floating away to heaven or burning in hell.  I never heard anything about the kingdom of God until I started studying with JWs.  I have had experience with Mormons visiting our home maybe once in my lifetime, but it wasn't to preach about God's kingdom.  I think that the gospel of the kingdom was one of the essential gospel messages of Christ and a duty for all to declare.  So when I speak of truth, it's about the kingdom of Christ and the benefits it would bring to mankind.  I prayed to God to show me the truth and his people and he did, and for the most part my questions were answered.  There is no religion or denomination totally correct about everything or they would be perfect, and there is no denomination I agree with on everything.  They are all imperfect bodies of people.  However, when I left the churches, just as many others, I was determined to never set foot in one again.  Turning away from a spiritual paradise would be like a dog going back to its vomit.

2.  From my view, I have seen a lot of neglect, hurt feelings and some major problems needing major corrections, however, I see no urgency or crisis as for as those anointed are concerned.  They are in God's hands to put in whatever rightful position he desires, not mine. 

3.  I don't see where a person can be disfellowshipped for quoting the Bible.

Witness said:

We realize there is some judging of serious matters within the congregation, but we don't want to be judging or finding fault continuously with the imperfections of each other or picking at straws.

I understand you are on the road so I'll cease here.  If there are any further issues feel free to reply when you can.  I still have a reply for your 04/19 posting, which I will post within the next day or two.

6 hours ago, Witness said:

 

You mean it is longer than “two miles”? J  Matt 5:41

 

Your words, “There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be. “

1).

Where is it that you feel you need to be in order to maintain your faith?  I think the question for all of us is where do we seat our faith. 

2).

Is it here?

 

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation" WT ‘81/11/15 p.212

 

Or is it here?

 

This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.  And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”  Acts 4:11-12

 

Do you see what has happened?  God has given us salvation simply through Christ only, and not through any other route, name, identity, organization.  If we don’t accept this, we too, have rejected the cornerstone just as those early Jews did.  1 Cor 1:23

3).

“For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”  So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.”  1 Pet 2:6-8

 

Your words “They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.”

4).

There are a few on here that preach Jesus’ message, but are not part of the organization.  Would you consider them part of the “preaching work”?  Preaching is always in truth, - Jesus - and in imitation of the early apostles who focused their preaching on Jesus' glory as well as the Father'; and nothing else, be it doctrine of men that changes, or an organization viewed as pertinent to our identity.

5).

 It is important to recognize the “small stuff” that can threaten one’s faith, by insistence on abiding by the “small stuff”.  Jesus made a point in bringing out the Pharisees’ deliberate attention to detail and how dangerous it can be.  Perhaps you don’t sweat the small stuff, but it can corrode your brother or sister’s faith, even yours; if we love one another we are concerned for the faith of each one of us.

 

“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,  “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat,  so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice.  They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.  They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long,  and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues  and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.”  Matt 23:1-7, 8-36

6).

Your words “Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not.”

 

We do all receive Holy Spirit if God allows it to happen through our own supplications in harmony with his will.  With the anointed ones, the light of Christ is to shine from within them.  This light is given to these children of God in order to bring all mankind who are willing, also to the light – they, in turn, become children of God in God’s Kingdom. 

 

 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house.  In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.  Matt 5:14,15

 

In order for the Body of Christ to shine as illuminators, it has to be recognized, which is impossible through suppression in the organization.  Phil 2:15 (stars in Christ's right hand - Dan 12:3) 

 

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.  John 15:16

 

Through the ignorance of this light given anointed who are required to let it shine, it is viewed by the organization with the same misunderstanding as Jesus’ light,

 

“The Light shines in the darkness, and darkness did not comprehend it”   John 1:5

 

Their light is poured into the heart by Holy Spirit in a unique way; when one works in harmony with God in recognizing this light, they receive comprehension of love and Christ’s laws, which are then manifested within these anointed ones - and they are to shine as stars. 1 Cor 14:41; Matt 5:16   By abolishing their own servitude as priests and allowing others to serve, the organization has set up an abomination, according to God.

 

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand)  Matt 24:15

 

The holy place is God’s Temple arrangement – the Body of Christ.  This is a spiritual fulfillment within and among God’s own people.  It has always been seen that abominations are found within his own people.  It has also always occurred that holy ones can choose to resist this blessing of Holy Spirit through their own arrogance and out of their lack of fear toward God.   Deut 13:12-15; Luke 23:40; Rom 3:10-18; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 1 Tim 4:16

 

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:16  “Judea” is the location of Israel, spiritual “Israel” today are the chosen ones. Rom 11:26 If we recognize this oppression, we are to flee, spiritually and physically to the heavenly mountain, Zion – to God and Christ.  

 

"How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?"  Heb 10:29 (Dan 8:10,13; Matt 5:13)

 

I’ll stop here, as I’ve probably past the two mile mark.  This is food for serious thought and do not feel obligated to respond, as it sounds like you are quite busy, but I have and will continue to appreciate reading your comments. 

 

 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  1 Pet 4:17

Just remember if you take 2 miles, I'll take 4. 

1).   My faith needed to be strong and I hadn't built up a strong core or backbone.  Although determined to dedicate myself to what I knew was the truth, it was easy to yield to my own weaknesses and the relentless attacks for several years after getting baptized; now, although imperfect, unshakeable.

2).   Context is everything and my official response will come later.  Again, it's not always a matter of here or there, this or that.  Upon speaking for many years with many aggressive atheists, Muslims, etc., we've had to deal with the same sort of 'your Bible is corrupt 101/1001 contradictions in the Bible, flip flop, wishy washy, make believe fairy tale God/god holy book written by men.'  'Your Paul is a liar (no works)/James (you must have works); God said count the men/Satan said count the fighting men; Jesus (no one has seen God)/men saw God and had lunch with him.)' (smile) 

So you see the problem here . . . which left us scrambling for we were not about to let anyone get the best of our holy book and trample those precious peals under our feet.  With God's help, pure tenacity and using Watchtower and other online websites, and resources, letting scripture explain scripture, we were able to help also other Christians shut down their arguments before the dust settled.  With the Christians, either Jesus is Michael or the 'Watchtower made it up.'  'If they lied about this, what else are they lying about?'  I'm glad I didn't feed into the propaganda, and just lay down and die.  I was able to use their own Trinitarian commentaries against them.

3).   We do believe in Jesus and have always said so.

4).   I recall Jesus saying to the effect, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness. (Matt 7:21-34)

Many do preach or prophesy in Jesus' name which is good, but they should also be following in the footsteps of Christ, obeying his commandments.  To not do so would be an act of disobedience and lawlessness. 

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (NWT)

Jesus said unto them, "I must announce the gospel of the kingdom of God to other cities also because for this am I sent." ““And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”” (Luke 4:43 Jubilee Bible) (Matt 24:14 KJV)

5). Jesus was concerned with paying attention to even  the smallest letter of the law.  This in itself was not dangerous, but beneficial.  Paying attention to the trivial traditions of the Pharisees made their worship in vain.   

 Witness said:

*I can agree, paying attention to every nonessential detail or sayings of men can be dangerous and quite burdensome.  At this point, I don't see where we are over burdened in following the commandments of Jesus, although I have had to deal with some overbearing brothers and sisters that insist the Watchtower has never been wrong or are quick to label one an brother for thinking a little outside the box.  The Watchtower itself has to my knowledge never said they were infallible or always correct.

6)  I'm not sure how much more efficiently things could be done, as I see we are all working together in the body of Christ as publishers of the good news.  God is not powerless to accomplish his will toward his anointed ones or any of us.  God is not powerless to remove those nor favorable disposed.  

Not sweating the small stuff means not focusing on everything wrong.  God does not focus on everything we do or say wrong, but our desire to worship him and do the right things according to his will.  Many of those anointed or appointed by Christ, said, thought and did the wrong things, so this is agreeable, we can't put anyone upon a pedestal.

“Stop judging that YOU may not be judged; 2 for with what judgment YOU are judging, YOU will be judged; and with the measure that YOU are measuring out, they will measure out to YOU. 3 Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Allow me to extract the straw from your eye’; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother’s eye." (Matt 7:1-5)

I'll wait for your response before I proceed.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

Hi JaniceM,

It is my opinion that not only is God’s name being profaned in this way, but through such actions, Christ and his Temple are rejected by the organization.

Hi Witness, I didn't want to quote your whole post as these writings go on for miles already.  I will try to respond to your other mail later today if I don't get bogged down with others here.  I also have to work 2 jobs next few weeks, so please excuse me if I don't answer right away.  I do try to read all your responses to me and everyone.  Also, it appears you may be getting some of my quotes mixed up with Shiwii. 

I guess I'm not fully understanding your concern or I don't see it as a major problem.  I try not to sweat the small stuff.

I read all the verses you quoted how the Lord or Jesus has stars in his hand, and the society stating he directs the stars/elders, or something to that effect.  Then you mentioned something about the anointed.  It got a little confusing for me.

Witness said:

We're all directed by God's holy spirit in different ways.  If the society speculates on what certain verses mean toward the anointed or bodies of elders, I may agree with their speculations or not.  As long as they are not telling me I need to worship them, they can make whatever speculations about the way they feel God or Christ is directing us, the elders, the anointed, or the organization.

I do however have a problem with being told I can't speculate on some verses because someone decides their speculations have changed.  But it's still not a bone of contention to cause me to dismiss my faith as others have done because I do agree with the main tenets of faith if not all in their entirety or my views have changed somewhat on certain issues.

I've read older publications of the society that I have not totally agreed with or completely understood.  The society has also rejected some earlier views as well.  Often I look at commentaries online for opinions of certain verses.  Some are similar, but of the hundreds/thousands, with their different speculations, I can agree or not, as their speculations can change over time as well.  It's my choice what to accept or believe.  No one can reach inside my mind.  I don't have to be overly discontent and write letters to the editor to tell them they are going above their authority about what some verse means.

There is a problem with outside views which I've had problems with, family, co-workers, neighbors etc., which caused me to stumble quite a bit, and it took me a long time to get back on my feet where I needed to be.  Their complaints constantly buzzing in my ears and nit-picking everything in every publication, made me more concerned about what they said rather than my faith and relationship with Jehovah and focusing on the commandments and work Jesus instructed us to do.  So now I say to anyone, tell me what you feel is the right way to go.  They might suggest their faith or denomination, but usually, they can't give me an answer, other than list all the so-called cults to stay away from.  They also say nothing of the preaching work or kingdom which was the main focus of Jesus' message.

Lastly, I'm not sure what the solution would be to these statements below, whether the anointed ones should commence the operations of the society or not. 

Witness said:

Witness said:

Witness said:

21 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

"Jesus never said he was equal to God, "

Actually that is exactly what He said, the Jews knew it, John knew it, but you do not. It's ok if you cannot wrap you head around any opinion other than your own. 

Jesus said he was son of God.  He even admitted he was son of God before the Sanhedrin.  If there was ever any time for him to make such a bold statement as you insist he did, that would have been the time, when he was on trial and before Pilate.

I've heard of reading in between the lines, but it does no good to stick your head in the sand and pretend you don't recognize the truth.

13 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

But this is what you were implying or else you would have never mentioned it in the first place because it has no bearing on the topic discussed. 

 

We are talking about multiple scholars here, not public opinion. These men and women have studied and trained to do this very thing, translate. This is not some flippant group of people who have no Biblical training but want to write their own version. There are some who have done so, with little or no training what so ever other than a semester or two of Hebrew or Greek. Are you really trying to throw their education aside and lump them in with the uneducated opinions? That to me would be dishonest and insulting. 

 

But this is not what the scripture says now is it? It clearly states that one must honor the Son inasmuch as one honors the Father. From John chapter 5 verse 16 through to 28 is dealing with the equality and authority of Jesus. 

 

16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Who said that Jesus was equal with God? was it Jesus? yes, but more so it was John recording what the Jewish leaders understood Jesus' words to mean. This was not by accident, Jesus didn't mince words, He knew exactly what they would think. Do you believe that Jesus didn't realize what His statement would mean? Of course He did. This would have been a perfect time for Jesus to correct them if He mislead them. He didn't, because He conveyed exactly what He intended to. 

19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father[e] does, that the Son does likewise. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives lifeto whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father.Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

I see you have also quoted a portion of this and Donald has brought it up as well. Interesting to note in verse 21, Jesus gives life to whom He wishes. Does Jesus have to run it by His Father first? Nope. He has free will to give to whom He pleases. The Son can do what the Father can do, because He and the Father work in conjunction. This is demonstrative of Jesus' own will, which by the way is NOT contradictory to the will of the Father. 

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

Jesus statement of hearing His word AND believing in the Father, one gains eternal life. Think about that for a moment, the Jews had the word of God in the OT, and now Jesus is saying these must hear (not just listening to the audible voice, but understanding) his words in conjunction with belief in the Father to gain eternal life. The Jews would never think of such, it would be blasphemy. Again, Jesus authority and equality is shown here because this is what God had told the Jews. 

 

Donald Diamond,

I would write the same response to you as I did here regarding these verses. The context is showing both the equality and authority of Jesus. You are right, the context gives us the reason why we honor the Son just the same as we honor the Father. 

1.  I'm not sure what the implication is other than what I stated below, but feel free to elaborate just for argument sake:

2.  There is the public opinion among Christendom (including mainstream misinformed individuals who have failed to read their Bibles in its entirety or researched how Bibles are translated), that the KJB is the only correct translation or that the majority of translations are correct in their renditions of certain verses; that any translation that deviates from a common verse practice is heretical, even if those scholarly translators have just as much education and degrees, dismissing hundreds or thousands of hours of training, which is insulting to them and dishonest just for people to want to have their ears tickled.

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

3.  The scripture also states why the son is to be honored as Judge or the one that renders judgement, which is being disregarded to support the idea of worship instead.

John 5:22-23 New American Standard 1977  - “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him"

12 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

4.  Jesus never said he was equal to God, which you'd rather believe the lies of wayward Jews instead; ones Jesus called children of the Devil and a Synagogue of Satan.

Lies go on for miles with more twists and turns; and the more crooked they get, the more confusing. 

Since I can't get a clear sense out of the remainder of your words, I don't see a need to respond to the rest of whatever that was. (smile)

43 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

 

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

 

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

 

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they do not convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

 

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

 

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

 

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

 

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

 

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

 

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

 

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

 

 

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

 

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

 

Summary:  The Christians also receive honor and the same glory from Christ which he receives from his Father.  But they are not worshiped the same as the Father even though they reflect the same glory of God and receive the same glory given to Christ.

 

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

 

John 17:22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

 

(Hebrews 1:2, 3) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things. 3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

 

Now I will finish off my using the same method of reasoning:  Does receiving the same image and glory as Christ receives from the Father mean others should be worshiped as Christ or God?

 

Let see what Strong says:

http://biblehub.com/parallel/john/17-22.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/1391.htm

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

dignity, glory, honor, praise, worship.

From the base of dokeo; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective) -- dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.

see GREEK dokeo

 

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

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Corrections/Additions

 

 

Strong's Concordance

doxa: opinion (always good in N.T.), hence praise, honor, glory

Original Word: δόξα, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: doxa
Phonetic Spelling: (dox'-ah)
Short Definition: honor, renown, glory splendor
Definition: honor, renown; glory, an especially divine quality, the unspoken manifestation of God, splendor.

I'm sorry Witness, I did read over your mail, and hope to respond soon, but I have to start working some by tomorrow.  Hopefully I won't get too much more distractions, interruptions, or butting in of conversations and I'll reread what you wrote and get back to you.  But I have a feeling I'll have to finish tying up some loose ends for at least another 24/48 hours the way things are going.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

If you have in fact studied all these versions of the Bible, then you would know that the verse we are talking about is neither variant nor spurious. I'm interested in knowing how you know so much about me and my studies? Get off your high horse, you have no idea what league I'm in. It is very telling in your response that instead of addressing the topic, you'd rather try and put me in my place. I've already given you the definition of honor, so repeating it to me only adds fluff to you post with no additional substance.

How can you dismiss the number of scholars it took to translate all of those versions of the Bible and cling to the two that support you?

You speak of high horses, and every response you've uttered has had an air of arrogance, hostility, and full of snide remarks, lacking scriptures and substance.  It's easy to constantly shoot off a round of rude nothingness and then call the kettle black.  If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it back.  Everyone should stay in their place or prepare to be corrected.

You are correct, and I never mentioned the verse in question to be considered spurious: 

(John 5:23) in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.  (NWT)

I did mention the majority of Bibles may have variant or spurious text.  That doesn't mean all Bibles contain the same variants or spurious text, even if they are in the minority.

Just because a majority of translations may render a verse in a similar fashion, also doesn't make them accurate or correct if they doesn't convey the original understanding from the original language or the equivalent today.  That's why there have been many updates to the King James Version, and most Bibles translations throughout the centuries and decades.  I think it is a bad idea to accept something just because it is the popular opinion.  Sometimes, we need to take the road less traveled. (I can repeat if necessary)

Also, the problem with isolating a verse is, we may not get the full context of what is being said.  So it may be best to read the whole chapter or book and research other verses from the Hebrew (OT) scriptures as well.

Reading the context, Jesus honor equates to the honor one gives to a judge or to a king, and by recognizing his position as such we are also honoring his God and Father, the one who placed him in such a position to rule in his place and as representing His authority.

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

John 5:22 For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, 23 in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life . . . 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.(NWT)

John 1:49 Na·than′a·el answered him: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.” 50 Jesus in answer said to him: “Because I told you I saw you underneath the fig tree do you believe? You will see things greater than these.” 51 He further said to him: “Most truly I say to YOU men, YOU will see heaven opened up and the angels of God ascending and descending to the Son of man.”

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.” (NWT)

(John 3:35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

(Philippians 2:10) so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground,

Luke 10:16 “He that listens to YOU listens to me [too]. And he that disregards YOU disregards me [too]. Moreover, he that disregards me disregards [also] him that sent me forth.”

Whereas many may feel Jesus being given the same honor or glory means the same as worship, they are free to come to that conclusion such as the commentary below:

http://biblehub.com/john/5-23.htm

Pulpit Commentary - Verse 23. - "The purpose of the entire commission of judgment to the Son, a bestowment which illustrates the quickening results that he (who does the will of the Father) wills to effect, is now gathered to a lofty climax, abundantly vindicating the right he had claimed to call God his own Father. It is as follows, in order that all may honour the Son. Τιμῶσιν, not προσκυνῶσιν ("honour," not "worship"), is the word used; but seeing that the identical sentiment of reverence due to the Supreme Being, to the Father, is that which is here said to be due to the Son, and is here declared to be the reason why all judgment is entrusted to the issues of his will, - we are at a loss to know how loftier attributes could be ascribed to the Son."

Strong's Concordance for John 5:23

http://biblehub.com/greek/5091.htm

STRONGS NT 5091: τιμάω

τιμάω, τιμῶ; future τιμήσω; 1 aorist ἐτίμησα; perfect passive participle τετιμημενος; 1 aorist middle ἐτιμησαμην; (τιμή); from Homer down;

1. to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself (Vulg.appretio; cf. Hagen, Sprachl. Erörterungen zur Vulgata, Freib. 1863, p. 99): τινα (R. V. to price), Matthew 27:9 (on which see ἀπό, I. 2); the Sept. for הֶעֱרִיך, Leviticus 27:8, 12, 14.

2. to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate; the Sept. for כִּבֵּד: God, Matthew 15:8; Mark 7:6; John 5:23; John 8:49; Christ, John 5:23; parents, Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20: Ephesians 6:2; other men, 1 Timothy 5:3; 1 Peter 2:17; With πολλαῖς τιμαῖς added, to honor with many honors, Acts 28:10; of God, rewarding Christians with honor and glory in his kingdom, John 12:26. (Compare: ἐπιτιμάω.)

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

what does this post of yours have to do with what I wrote? I said it seemed as though your statement was made about imperfect men making assumptions and God straightened them out. 

 

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

I understand if you choose not to reply, in fact I'd rather you not if you are not going to address what I wrote and come up with some other tangent. 

 

While I agree with you here to a point, however I cannot throw out the numerous amounts of study involved to even translate properly, let alone the many scholars it takes just for one translation of the Bible. now you want to throw out 52 translations of the Bible and cling to the two who support you? 

I will take your statement as confusion on your part and really bad paraphrasing, out of context imperfect "assumptions".

And numerous amounts of study is exactly what you should be doing as that might help you more instead of writing smart remarks in the forum.  You are out of your league here .  .  Since you have not studied, whatever 52/101 . . .  translations of the Bible I have compared, they are all different.  For example, just because the majority of Bibles may contain a variant reading or spurious text, does not mean all Bibles follow suit.  Just because the majority of Bible translations are biased in their renditions of certain verses, doesn't mean all Bibles are.

I also have no idea why you cannot understand simple things.  Honor can mean deep respect which is the meaning for John 5:23, not worship or equal worship.  Just as I would honor my mother and father the same, I would honor the son the same as the father.  If I dishonor the son, it would also be dishonor to his Father.  It would be the same as with human kings or their sons.

HONOR - The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

If you do take the time to study, in the old KJ version of the Bible, you will find many people were actually worshiped because they represented God.

I'll be here the rest of the evening, so I don't mind entertaining the ramblings of others for a while longer.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

fair enough, but take a look again. I can dig up the information, but it would be better if you did. 

 

Any group or organization who claims to be "the way" is fooling themselves and I would steer clear. Jesus is the "truth, the way and the life" no organization is the truth, no organization is the way and no organization is the life. 

See this wasn't the question though.  Who was claimed to have given the guidance to the Faithful and Discreet slave which turned out to be wrong teachings?  I was not quoting you, I was asking you about the wrongs that were taught. Who gave them? The FDS no? Who did they claim this authority from, to speak on Gods behalf? Maybe you should read a little slower and closely before you accuse one of deceit. 

Excuse me, your paraphrasing of my words doesn't seem to come off as a question especially if there's no question mark:

5 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

"In your statement here, you make it seem as if it was just imperfect men who got it wrong, and God straightened it out."

It was Jesus that formed the church or congregations to go preaching the gospel or good news message.  Whether we say church, congregation, Christian society or organization, it means some type of organization was put in place to carry out the work.  It was Jesus that gave the command to go preach to all the nations.  All Christians have been given the authority and responsibility to speak about God and carry out the work of Jesus. 

You can read about this commission and authority in the Bible, and about the faithful and discreet slave.

35 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

you think by finding A translation that gives you support, is the collective meaning of what the verse means? Hardly.  It wasn't the verse you took so much time finding it was a translation that supports your idea. Your example of worship is noted, however the issue is what constitutes honor? It is placed value as per Strong's :

G5091

τιμάω

timaō

tim-ah'-o

From G5093 ; to {prize} that {is} fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - {honour} value.

 

So do you value Jesus inasmuch as the Father? Value here is equal in John 5:23. In what way does one value each of them?

Again, your relationship with your Mother and Father are different, but you respect them the same. John 5:23 is saying our relationship should be the same, the same value is to be placed upon both equally and our devotion should be the same.... respect,  honor, worship, fear, admiration, love, subjection,  adherence,  etc.

You are free to not answer, it will not hurt my feelings. 

 

exactly, and that is where context comes into play. 

 

here in your example, did you happen to notice that out of the 54 or so translations only two use anything other than worship? How many scholars worked on these 52 other translations? I would venture to say that they have far more knowledge on words and their meanings than you or I put together. It seems funny though that you went through all of the trouble to find one that you could quote, and ignored the 52 others. 

 

So lastly,

How does one honor Jesus and the Father equally, but yet not worship them equally? If the value is the same, then the devotion should be the same. You view of worship is actually not in question, it is what you do to one you must do to the other, according to John 5:23.

Whatever relationship I have with my mother and my father, God says to honor them both and it would be equally or the same.  Honor does not mean I worship my mother and my father.  At John 5:23, honor doesn't translate as worship, no matter how many times you imply it does.

I gave you one example of the verse in Hebrews as an example of how the word worship can be translated.  The majority may not always reflect truth in translation, and sometimes it's best not to always follow the crowd which can lead to the broad road to destruction.  Also, I didn't want to overload the forum with scriptures, but I will post a few more examples below: 

Heb 1:6 Young's Literal Translation - and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him -- all messengers of God;'  -http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-6.htm -

Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him. - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews

Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. KJV

Revelation 3:9 New International Version (NIV) 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Corrections to Public Watchtower count:

No. 1/2016    Society - 4; Organization - 0

No. 2/2016    Society - 3; Organization - 0