JaniceM

Ok, thanks Esther, I'll post it to JW brothers on facebook.  They couldn't verify it.

Some say this is false report but let me check on it some more.  The news links provided from the Librarian seem legitimate.

12 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I can understand how someone completely ignorant of the content Gods's Word might draw this erroneous conclusion on the strength of comparing these lines from one of the 151 songs in the book, “Sing Out Joyfully” to Jehovah.

However, for the benefit of those genuinely making this error, Proverbs 3:9 shows the thought to be completely in harmony with the encouragement provided in God's word to contribute materially to the advancement of true worship. It reads there, (in context), 

"Honor Jehovah with your valuable things, with the firstfruits of all your produce; 

Then your storehouses will be completely filled, And your vats will overflow with new wine."

Just a few days ago, I had an interesting conversation on facebook with a young man from Gaza.  He used to like to read the Bible out loud to me but is somewhat agnostic/atheist at times.  He wanted may opinion of a video whereby an atheist said Mother Theresa accepted money from criminals for orphanages to bear her name and she basically kept women in oppression and poverty by renouncing forms of birth control. etc.

I told him I thought the atheist was overly critical and I could not judge being that families, businesses, corporations and tax payer money is used to support countries that oppress many including women and children, and start foundations, associations or agencies for namesake purposes.

I could only think of the verses below and I posted a commentary from the library:

Luke 16:8 And his master commended the steward, though unrighteous, because he acted with practical wisdom; for the sons of this system of things are wiser in a practical way toward their own generation than the sons of the light are. 9 “Also, I say to YOU, Make friends for yourselves by means of the unrighteous riches, so that, when such fail, they may receive YOU into the everlasting dwelling places. 10 The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. 11 Therefore, if YOU have not proved yourselves faithful in connection with the unrighteous riches, who will entrust YOU with what is true?

*** it-2 p. 806 Riches ***
He urged his hearers: “Make friends for yourselves by means of the unrighteous riches, so that, when such fail, they may receive you into the everlasting dwelling places.” (Lu 16:9) Since the possession or desire for material riches can lead to lawless acts, they may for this reason have been designated as “unrighteous riches,” in contrast with spiritual riches. Also, material riches, particularly money, actually belong to and are under the control of “Caesar,” who issues money and assigns a particular value to it. Such riches are transitory, and loss may be experienced as a result of economic conditions or other circumstances. Hence, the person having such riches should not put his trust in them, nor should he use them as the world in general does for selfish purposes, such as the amassing of still greater wealth. (1Co 7:31) Rather, he should be alert and diligent to make friends of the possessors of the everlasting dwelling places.

The possessors of “the everlasting dwelling places” are Jehovah God and his Son Christ Jesus. (Compare Joh 6:37-40, 44.) Persons who do not use their “unrighteous riches” in a proper way (as in assisting those in need and in furthering “the good news”; Ga 2:10; Php 4:15) could never be friends of God and of his Son, Christ Jesus. Their unfaithfulness in the use of unrighteous riches would show that they are unfit to be entrusted with spiritual riches. (Lu 16:10-12) Such persons could never be fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness, dispensing spiritual riches to others.—1Pe 4:10, 11.

Interesting decision.

Incredible

Love it!

So sad these developments.  Lot of prayers to be answered.

Maybe I can email the link to the major newspaper outlets and popular news shows as well as all the permanent missions members of UN and congress/senate members.  That will be a task to get all those email addresses but I'll try in the next few days.

Thanks Kurt, it was good to get a better background on all this and how all the denominations are affected.

Beautiful . . . 

Looks good!  Thanks

If I can recall correctly, years back when they had started the clean up, they improved the water results and tests showed the water was cleaner than the city's water supply.  Don't quote me though, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me.  I also agree with Joyce.  There are people suffering from cancer, kidney, liver, and heart disease from perhaps many things in the environment.  I probably have more chemicals in my home from food bought at the grocery store to the point it's making me deathly sick.  In addition to the fresh fruits and vegetables, I'm going to have to start making my own salad dressing and stay away from all prepackaged foods and seasonings except rice, pasta and beans.

I thought the story was familiar.  Some are not satisfied unless they are the bearer of bad news and picking apart everything that could possibly be wrong.

Amazing!

Thanks everyone for all the info!

Absolutely terrible to hear . . . Can't imagine why. 

6 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Well, the article mentions this about 1914:

 

 

That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence.

 

 

They say rejecting even just one of their teachings is apostasy.......iow, no salvation.

And, the teachings listed in the article aren't the only ones because it says the "entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses."

Anyway, we seem to have gotten off the topic in my OP.  I had wanted to ask you about the scriptures I posted, especially the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4.  Does it seem to you to be talking about two different events, one that happens immediately and then one that takes place over a very large stretch of time?

I understand your concern.  However, the same would apply to any other religious organization that demand its members uphold their beliefs or consider them gone astray.  It was once considered apostasy by the church to read the Bible among many other rules and regulations.  I would have to say I've never agreed with the all the beliefs of any denomination and that includes my own.  If considered apostasy, ultimately eternal judgement or condemnation is by means of Christ.  My God-given common sense would tell me the entire range does not include jumping off a bridge or drinking poisoned kool aid.

Because we have freedom of speech, anyone can give their opinions or reverse their opinions.  If there's a point so strongly that we can't reconcile what we believe is true, we have a choice to allow God to direct us to make the right decision whether to stay in place or move on in our endeavors.  Despite any imperfections in word or deed, we are commanded to continue preaching the good news of God's kingdom.

(Acts 5:38-40) . . . if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.” 40 . . .

The scriptures in 1 Thessalonians read:

i*** Bible Citations ***
1 Thess 4:15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.

it does not sound like an immediate event for I assume many of the apostles and disciples were still alive at that time, and all have since died.  If Paul spoke of any living until Christ descent, it appears the event would have reached down to our time beginning with the first ones fallen asleep in death. 

If the Watchtower or society wrote an opinion or something different in this aspect from 1879-2016, I don't think I will have a great issue with it.  The important thing is the resurrection will occur and we will have righteous rulers to benefit all of society for the better.  I do have some things to do, so excuse me if I don't respond right away.

Thanks Kurt for the updates here . . . still praying everyday.

2 hours ago, HollyW said:

You probably noticed that one of the teachings listed in the article has already been changed:

 

 

That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47)

 

 

 

That's correct, but the article itself does mention 1914 and does say you must believe it in order to received salvation:

 

 

Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

 

I think 1914 qualifies as a Scriptural belief that is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, don't you?

I'm not so sure about that since the article itself does seem to be pretty dogmatic about disagreeing with even just one of their teachings.  In another WT they say JWs should not even be harboring thoughts that are in disagreement with WTS teachings:

 

First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas

when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.

 

 

 

 

I agree that there are those things worth the "battle", so to speak, and some that aren't, and from what the WTS says about preaching the wrong timing of the resurrection (about it being apostasy) this seems like an important topic to research and discuss. So I appreciate your posts and the time and consideration you've given to them.

 

I'm sorry, but I did not see where it mentions you must believe in the year 1914 in order to receive salvation but to be associated as one of Jehovah's Witnesses:

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Therefore, I would have to agree to disagree.  At one point an elder mentioned they do not always agree when coming together to meet on issues, but in the end they have to come to a meeting of minds so that there is not a split or cause for angry divisions, which throughout history resulted in many denominations that sprang up.  I can agree with the main tenets of my faith, and whatever thoughts I harbor will be between me and Jehovah and not big enough issues for me to cause chaos. 

36 minutes ago, HollyW said:

I'm not sure why the two I've already provided (from the 1993 wt and the Revelation Climax book) don't answer your question about what I said.  The WTS says the first resurrection began in 1918 with the resurrection of the dead in Christ from the first century to the start of the resurrection in 1918.  But that was not all of the 144,000, they say.  There were still anointed JWs who had not died yet, but as each one dies during the time from 1918 to the present, he or she is immediately resurrected to heaven.

Are you thinking that some of these spirit-anointed JWs would not be ones who are in good standing with the WTS? 

 

I would still like the exact quote you mentioned below:

37 minutes ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.

25 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Also from the website jw.org

 

I apologize for I did not always see a direct quote(s).  What I saw was references to quotes which I had to look up.  Many in the forum have complained about innuendoes or comments that don't always match up with the exact quotes or articles.

22 minutes ago, HollyW said:

 

Janice, let me preface this by saying all my quotes are from the WTS cd-library disc.

You say you didn't understand the connection between what the QFR article in the 4/1/1986 wt and that of preaching the wrong timing of the first resurrection as being apostasy.  I'll quote it from the article [bolding is mine]:

 

Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

What do such beliefs include?

 

 

 

That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.

 

 

 

 

Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position?

Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.)

There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

 

Thanks again Holly,

I did manage to read the entire article.  I would agree with the article concerning those basic teachings including perhaps 1914 as being a marked year as the end of the gentile period or beginning of Christ's reign in the heavens.  However, there is no one scripture that directly mentions the year, 1914, or that one must believe this in order to receive salvation.  Therefore, I disagree it should be a reason for branding anyone an apostate if they believe otherwise.  The end of the article states:

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.

Finally, growing up among several different Christian denominations from the First Baptist Church to the Second/Third Baptist/Methodist Church (smile), if you don't believe in hellfire, or if your females wear pants, don't cover their heads, or divorced, etc., they're not one of us and going to hell.  I think all denominations have rules, beliefs and guidelines they require their parishioners to abide by or believe.  Again, in my case, I've had to choose my battles. 

Correction to earlier post:

7 minutes ago, JaniceM said:

I checked the reference you quoted and failed to see exactly what you mentioned as branding ones apostates that wrongly teach about this or the year 1919(?), etc.  However, I will check it again.

 

*** w86 4/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers - ▪ Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?

 

Thank you Holly for your responses,

I have no problem with the position of the society in regards to those anointed being resurrected as spirits.  If I said spiritual as opposed to spirit, it was simply in contrast to a physical corruptible body.  My impression from the scriptures is those resurrected to heaven would become as angels or spirits.

(1 Peter 3:18) Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous [person] for unrighteous ones, that he might lead YOU to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.

(1 Corinthians 15:45-47) 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 . . .

My question was not really in regards to spiritual vs spirit but the statement you made in regards to the Society below:

15 hours ago, HollyW said:

The WTS says this has been taking place ever since as each spirit-anointed JW dies faithful to the teachings of the WTS.

I underlined the direct portion of your statement.  If you could please provide a direct quote from a publication about this as well as the statement you made below:

5 hours ago, HollyW said:

The importance of this teaching should cause all JWs to research this because their religious leaders say that teaching wrongly about it is what the Bible brands as apostasy. (see 4/1/1986 wt p.31)

I checked the reference you quoted and failed to see exactly what you mentioned as branding ones apostates that wrongly teach about this or the year 1919(?), etc.  However, I will check it again.

*** w86 4/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers *** Questions From Readers - ▪ Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?

It's easier for me to comment on a direct quote from our publication and I can tell you if I agree or disagree with it.  However, if the quotes or from a website, they may not be listing the right publications.

Finally, before we go around in circles of predicted years in time, I've had to pick my battles.  That would include relatives, friends, co-workers, acquaintances, Catholics, Protestants or ones in this forum.  For example, the Bible says:

(Matthew 7:21-23) 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

This verse would perhaps include the majority of Christian denominations prophesying in the name of the Lord.  I have researched and found many attempts to correctly predict the coming of Christ which may or may not be true, some every Sunday by ministers/preachers/priests, . . . etc.  Right now a year in time is not among my greatest concerns, but knowing that year will eventually come.