ComfortMyPeople

Anna, I think your question is a very valid one. Let me share with you this point: Antioch congregation and Peter. Quoting partly (some comments and emphasis added) from *** w78 6/15 p. 7 “When Barnabas and Paul brought this letter [from Jerusalem, resolving the circumcision issue] back to Antioch, there was great rejoicing in the congregation. —Acts 15:3-31. It may have been after this that Peter visited the Antioch congregation and freely associated with uncircumcised Gentile believers. But, then, when certain Jewish brothers came down from Jerusalem [perhaps, again, teaching about the obligation of circumcision -Acts 15:1 -], Peter withdrew from associating with Gentile converts and spent time exclusively with Jewish brothers. Even Barnabas got unbalanced and did the same thing. But all responded properly when Paul reproved Peter, making clear how wrong such a course was. —Gal. 2:11-14. Well, it was clear that these two prominent brothers err in their judgment seriously. What I’ve never heard is the fact, I believe, that perhaps this was not a matter of declining some invitations for lunch. Imagine you’re a gentile sister in the middle of that congregation. You feel so happy because have the chance to preach with so valuable brothers, Paul, Barnabas and, imagine, Peter is going to visit your congregation. More speeches, more opportunities to preach with, perhaps, the most famous of the apostles. As soon Peter arrives you make arrangements to go to some visits with him, he agrees and you enjoy listen his conversation. Later, you also enjoy hearing him giving speeches in the “kingdom hall.” But as you know, as soon the jews brothers arrived, Peter began to ‘withdrew from associating WITH YOU.’ Next congregation meeting arrives and you can feel the tension. The apostle Peter takes the word and you start to hallucinate. He’s is trying to justify his actions, even with scriptural basis, as the brothers from Jerusalem did: (Acts 15:1) ‘began to teach the brothers: “Unless you get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”’ Thank goodness Paul had the courage to resist him! So far so good. I mean this is very known. But what happened 15 years later approx.? God inspires Peter to write his letters. Now theses letters arrive to Antioch y you are in the middle of the meeting, listening their reading. Now, you have two options. 1. How is supposed follow the advice in the letters from this man that everyone in the congregation knows committed a manifest judgment error? How is it possible God continues to use him? 2. Well, Jehovah has forgiven him. So, the same should I do. I’m not sure if you’ll find these comments meaningful. Nevertheless, it still remains an important point: Peter’s letters were inspired, GB not. But, for now, my time is running out, I’ll try later.

Because of these quotes I started to buy books from commentators and enjoy reading them. I remember with special affection, of those days, "New Testament Words” from W. Barclay. I think reading these publications did not hurt me. But I understand the possible effect on others: doctrinal disparity and divisions, in the style of The Watchtower says this, but according to this author could also be this other thing ... In relation to this, I think we can be both loyal and intelligent. Let me ask you. Can a JW be cultivated, erudite, disagree with the slave's focus at any given time, and still be loyal? (Note: I was not thinking of myself as scholar or intelligent, I hope no one think this way!) Regarding this question. Some time ago the media contact of our branch came to my city for a certain public event regarding Nazi’s period and our brothers. He gave this wise advice to a brother helping him related to that occasion. "When you are asked in the University about our beliefs, do not say ‘the Bible says this or that’, but rather, ‘we think that the Bible says this, we believe the Bible says this thing else’, otherwise we would appear dogmatic." And I have copied this example when I teach my students about subjects that, to myself, I am not sure they are one hundred percent this way. I take the opportunity to transmit them loyalty in spite the changes they inevitably will find. I hope I’m not putting part of the world to fire and sword. More or less this way: "After much investigation and prayer, the Witnesses came to understand this teaching. (I think teaching is better than ‘truth’, truth never changes). Perhaps over time God will continue to help us to understand it better and we may see it from another way.” Now, I continue: “of course, it is not a good idea to teach different things at the same time. The Bible says we must be united. God reveals things to his people gradually", and this kind of thing. Does this mean that I don’t need the slave class? Perhaps that I receive the teaching from our brothers with suspicion or skepticism? Certainly not! To the contrary! Please, let me explain a little bit more! I began to learn the truth when I was a teenager in 1971. Now, I’m about 60. What I’ve learnt all these years has been wonderful. It has changed my life and, the most important for me, has allowed me to approach God. At the beginning believed there were three states of be informed: 1. The Bible writer, inspired and unerring. 2. You and me, error prone. 3. An intermediate state, the ‘slave class’, almost the first -inspired- class, because they are guided by God’s spirit and, we belong to a people guided by Him. Aren’t we? And we use to say ‘what God teach us’ with relation what these brothers prepare. Well, over time, as informed and thinking person, I began to think that it isn’t possible that God ‘transmits’ supposed ‘truths’ they proved to be, over time, not only wrong, but sometimes ridiculous (House of the Princes, 1925, ridiculous in the words of the brother Rutherford himself) or dangerous (1975). At this point I know others leave the congregation. Others slow down.I began to think more, to meditate more, to study more and to pray more. It has been a process of many years, still underway. 1. When on history of God’s servants they have had a perfect understanding about his will? Never. So, why to expect God’s people these days to have this kink on knowledge? 2. I sincerely believe that the ‘core’ teachings I believe are the same Russell and his relatives and friends had in the beginnings: The death situation, the Earth destiny, no existence of a hell of fire, trinity and others. For me, these are sufficient to proudly identify myself with the heirs of this group, and preach zealously with the congregation. I think ALL, or almost all religions believe in life after death, burning of earth, trinity and so. For me, this is demonstration of the blessing of God for these persons. My brothers. It is a world apart the field of PROPHECIES! A new post topic perhaps. 3. Jehovah’s way to transmit information to his people has been different according the eras. Face to face to Moses, speaking loudly to some prophets, inspiring to apostles… but, regarding the last days, I find that the mechanism would be absent from miracles. I’ve tried to explain this in other post http://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/28606-the-path-of-the-righteous-is-like-the-bright-morning-light/#comment-36721 4. I’m even ready if God deems it necessary to punish or even discipline we the JW. Yes, yes, yes… now we are living in a wonderful spiritual paradise only waiting for the prize (after the persecution) and no punishing at sight according our present point of view. But, what if this view, as many other PROPHETICS turn out to be wrong? Hasn’t be always the case God allowed these same situations to his people, his worshipers? I’m not saying this is going to happen, but what if this occur? Remember the very same thing was prophesized regarding the true worshipers in the last days, with no ‘type-antitype effect’, it’s only a matter of time: If it has happened or if it has to happen: (Revelation 11:7) “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.” (Daniel 11:35) “And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.” If this were the case, I’m ready to suffer the same fate that my brothers, waiting God’s forgiveness. One final thought. The reason I openly mention these ideas is because there is no niche inside the congregation to express them. And I find it logical and scriptural. But, on the other hand, I know THERE ARE a number of loyal brothers with these kind of thoughts, some of them a little confused, or disappointed, or wondering if they are in the true religion, or temped to go to places to get information handled for resentful persons, that hate us, skilled in mixing truths, half-truths or plain lies. Or imputing us false motives when we have been, simply, wrong. I prefere these brother find posts like mine, a thinking, active brother that in spite of his ideas loves not only God (easy) but also his people (sometimes a little bit harder.) And, if any of you is kind of share some thougts showing me a better way to think, no doubt I’ll consider with appreciation! [Disclaimer: I sincerely apology because reading my English must be a painful experience]

That is! This kind of info was what I was waiting for. I also remember the days when was famous in our literature McClintock & Strong's work. They were quoted almost as much as the Bible (hyperbole!)

I see. Perhaps this modern dates refer to some reprint of the original work

Yes, you're right, Anna, I perfectly remember this wise advise. Thanks for adding!

An unexpected visit Characters: Angel (A) You (Y) Narrator (N) N- Imagine that an angel visits you today. He wakes you up in the middle of the night and says: A- Jehovah granted me choose one of his servants to inform Armageddon’s date, and I’ve chosen to you. Y- Wonderful! What a privileged man I am! When will it be? A- January 1, 2025. Now, I’m going to give further information about this date of capital importance Y- Errr, excuse me angel, thanks for this marvelous information, but my alarm clock is set at 5 AM, and I wish to sleep. Tomorrow I will have a hard day and I need to feel awake. A- What a lack of appreciation! If only I had known! N- The angel, sorrowful and turning its back on you, is ready to depart. Y- Please angel, don’t feel bad. It remains 8 years. I have no savings to live without my secular work. Next month my wife has a surgery, and also I need to ponder the education of my children. You aren’t going to think I take my children off from the school all these 8 years! A- I think if you were more spiritual… Y- One moment, I’ve just applied for the pioneer next month, and with my collaboration my wife is going to start the regular next September. What’s wrong with me! A- And what’re your plans for next holidays? Now you know for sure the Date! Would not you rather dedicate it to preach? N- The angel a little bitter, you a little worried. Y- Well… perhaps you’re right… one moment! A- Yes Y- The brothers at Bethel, missionaries and traveling overseers, do you think they are, in general, spirituals? A- Of course! Y- And don’t have they fully conscience of the closeness of the end? A- Yes, I think so Y- And, don’t they enjoy of their holidays these years? A- Well, I believe this, yes. Y- Look. If you only had said to me this date is, let’s say, is in a few months, perhaps I could have made some arrangements. But believe me, dear angel, I love Jehovah and I’m trying make my most every day, without any date in consideration. N- And they both say goodbye with affection Abraham’s example Some emphasis added: (Genesis 12:1-4) “And Jehovah said to A′bram: “Go out from your land and away from your relatives and from the house of your father to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, and you will become a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you.” 4 So A′bram went just as Jehovah had told him, and Lot went with him. A′bram was 75 years old when he left Ha′ran.” What would be your reaction if someone promises YOU all these things? Would it not be logical to expect the fulfillment of these words in your own life? Let’s continue with Abraham. Some emphasis added: (Genesis 13:14-18) “Jehovah said to A′bram, after Lot had separated from him: “Raise your eyes, please, and look from the place where you are, to the north and south, east and west, 15 because all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring as a lasting possession. 16 And I will make your offspring like the dust particles of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust particles of the earth, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Get up, travel through the length and breadth of the land, for to you I am going to give it.” 18 So A′bram continued to live in tents” Again, would it not be logical to suppose for Abraham to think he will receive these rewards during the span of his life? Now, some years after, about ten perhaps, these words happen. Again, emphasis added: (Genesis 15:13-16) “Then He said to A′bram: “Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years. 14 But I will judge the nation they will serve, and after that they will go out with many goods. 15 As for you, you will go to your forefathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 But they will return here in the fourth generation…” “What? What does this mean? It was assumed that I was going to get your promises in my life, and now, you’re going to say me that I’m going to die, and my reward is postponed until a very distant future, for some remote descendants.” Perhaps no one between us find this hypothetic answer odd or rare, but did Abraham felt deceived? Well, the rest of his life, very known for all of us offers a clear answer. Conclusion Did Abraham need date information to serve God with all his soul? No. Why? Because he simple loved God. And here I am, like all of you. Serving to Jehovah decades after our thoughts about when the end should come. Because our main motivation is, simply, love. What I’m trying to say with the little story about the angel visiting at night and the account about some passages regarding Abraham’s life is the danger of getting quickly excited with some developments, in the world or in God’s people. When I listen to some brother saying something like “look at the news today… China, Middle East, etc., the end is near” I always answer, yes, you’re right, but I also thought to myself “the same I believed when I was a child.” These recursive ideas bother me, because always lead to disappointment. I try to share the attitude of Abraham, attempting to serve Jehovah till the end of my days with all my soul.

Thank you Melisa for your kind words. I fully agree with you, and I aslo enjoy reading Anna and JWI posts! I've also post a new "extended application" verse here. I'd also like your comments. Greetings, my sister!

This is my question: what photo bellow best represents the meaning of Pro 4:18, "A" or "B"? A) Oh, no, this picture doesn't represent our normal use of Pro. 4:18. This, apparently, better fits with Eph. 4:24 and the new personality transformation. B) This is, with total security, our quickest choice! The photo represents the gradual increase in knowledge about the God's purposes and his word. But, this is my question. What is in first and foremost place the real meaning of this Proverb? The background in our literature. There is a lot of "back" in the timeline. This is the first reference I've found in our publications in the use of Pro.4:18 Zion’s Watch Tower, July 1879, article "ON INTERPRETATION" page 25, right column, 2nd paragraph Follows part of the article, bold letters are mine====================================== "The path of the just is a shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Pro. iv. 18. Many do not understand how the Bible could be so written as to remain dark for a time, and then gradually unfold its truth as a burning lump..." End of quotation================================================= And, going to the other side, one of the most recent utilization. And please, observe the emphasis added (not in the original) for a later explanation. *** w11 7/15 pp. 29-30 par. 7 God’s Rest—Have You Entered Into It? *** Follows part of the article====================================== 7 Many of us can quote Proverbs 4:18 from memory: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” That means that our conduct and our understanding of God’s purposes will improve over time. End of quotation================================================= The Bible Context Well, according the same article I quoted in other post -http://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/28423-the-spotlight-effect-and-the-extended-applications/#comment-36450 - (w91 8/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers) Proverbs 4:18 is also “part of a group of verses”, and this fact sheds much light about our quest. Follows part of Pro. 4:10-27: Listen, my son, and accept my sayings, And the years of your life will be many. 11 I will instruct you in the way of wisdom; I will lead you in the tracks of uprightness. 12 When you walk, your steps will not be hindered; And if you run, you will not stumble. […] 14 Do not enter the path of the wicked, And do not walk in the way of evil men. 15 Shun it, do not take it; Turn away from it, and pass it by. […] 17 They feed themselves with the bread of wickedness, And they drink the wine of violence. 18 But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight. 19 The way of the wicked is like the darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble. […] 25 Your eyes should look straight ahead, Yes, fix your gaze straight ahead of you. 26 Smooth out the course of your feet, And all your ways will be sure. 27 Do not incline to the right or the left. Turn your feet away from what is bad. Didn’t you easily perceive the same train on thought? A father given counsel to his son about the ways, the paths to avoid and the tracks, the steps to follow. And, regarding our verse under scrutiny, it emerges the same idea that in the rest of the context, as would be expected. The father (Jehovah/Solomon) is saying to his son (ourselves) If you choose the bad way, your life would convert in a dark experience but, if you follow my advices, your path, life, track, way… each day will be brighter and brighter. The Basic meaning, in its own context It is the reason I’ve emphasized the quote in the Watchtower above (w11 7/15 pp. 29-30): “That means that our conduct and our understanding of God’s purposes will improve over time.” Have you noticed the “our conduct … will improve”? This is the basic and real meaning of the verse. And this idea is what I’ve tried to represent with my picture “B”. A man whose life is a complete disaster, who lives in darkness, as he learns the truth and makes changes in his behavior, his way, path, tracks gets more and more brighter. (Digression. I suppose JW Insider as a former graphic designer will smile sympathetic seeing my ‘art’) The problems with the explanation in the Watchtower article I’ve just quoted are, in my opinion, two. First, how is supposed the readers of the magazine, mainly JW, could grasp the basic idea of the verse, when during more than a century, once and again, hundreds of times, and also in the same sentence occurs the extended application, “gradual improve in knowledge of God’s purposes”. Second: Why on earth is the basis for this extended application? I think, quoting brother Splane in 2015 October meeting, this is another of our cherished verses, with its concomitant extended explanation. Alternatives Are there any alternatives without this stretching of the context? Let me share two that show the gradualness of our understanding of the Bible and the chance to make mistakes. First, Daniel (11 and 12). (Daniel 11:33) “And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many” (Daniel 12:4) “Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” First, we noticed there is a people (not persons at home reading and interpreting the scriptures). Secondly, there are a group with more insight, and, consequently, have the capacity to teach the people. Finally, the mechanism, the gradualness: will rove about to obtain the true knowledge. Regarding this last idea, I wish to include some quotes from scholars (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/12-4.htm). The emphases are mine. Benson Commentary: Many shall run to and fro — Many shall diligently search into these prophecies, and make use of all the means in their power to arrive at a true knowledge of them; shall improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved, and their acquaintance with divine things in general, and with these and the other prophecies of God’s word in particular, improved and perfected. Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary run to and fro—not referring to the modern rapidity of locomotion, as some think, nor to Christian missionaries going about to preach the Gospel to the world at large [Barnes], which the context scarcely admits; but, whereas now but few care for this prophecy of God, "at the time of the end," that is, near its fulfilment, "many shall run to and fro," that is, scrutinize it, running through every page. Compare Hab 2:2 [Calvin]: it is thereby that "the knowledge (namely, of God's purposes as revealed in prophecy) shall be increased." This is probably being now fulfilled. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased; that is, towards the end of the time appointed, many persons will be stirred up to inquire into these things delivered in this book, and will spare no pains or cost to get knowledge of them; will read and study the Scriptures, and meditate on them; compare one passage with another; spiritual things with spiritual, in order to obtain the mind of Christ; will peruse carefully the writings of such who have gone before them, who have attempted anything of this kind; and will go far and near to converse with persons that have any understanding of such things: and by such means, with the blessing of God upon them, the knowledge of this book of prophecy will be increased; and things will appear plainer the nearer the accomplishment of them is; Conclusions about Daniel 11 and 12 “To rove about.” Not going straight. To go ahead, then back, to left, to right. Did the angel tell to Daniel that, in the last days, new revelations from heaven will occur? No. Perhaps some angelical visit? Neither. Instead, it would be a process of trial and error, because to study implies learning, make changes to correct errors. What would be, in short, according Daniel 11 and 12, the way those persons with more “insight” will teach others? Trying, these with more insight, to understand better what to teach. And from these expressions the only conclusion is to accept the necessity of changes and improvements. And the same idea seems that the commentators above quoted agree. Secondly, Paul’s example. Paul is credited “of receiving such extraordinary revelations.” (2Cor.12:7). But he himself, in the days of miraculous powers, what recognize about his understanding of the God’s purposes? Emphasis and comments added. (1 Corinthians 13:9-12) “For we [me also] have partial knowledge and we prophesy [or, teach] partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child [I make mistakes as a child]; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline [not clear] by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present [despite my revelations] I know partially, but then I will know accurately [when in front, face-to-face to God]” Accordingly, it-1 p. 801 says “Comparing the understanding of God’s purpose had by the early Christian congregation with the fuller understanding to be had upon receiving their heavenly reward, and then coming to comprehend the divine purpose in its entirety as prophecy is fulfilled, the apostle Paul said: “For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face” Well, the apostle, humbly, recognizes that only when face-to-face to God is when everything would become crystal clear. Why ourselves were going to be more than him? Why to expect from the steward class (Lu.12:42) more than Paul? Grant the brothers on charge of teaching to the brotherhood the same “partial” knowledge than Paul, until they, with Paul, go to heaven.

What letter do you see in the attached photo? If you answer is an "A" well, you are right, but partially. Did you also observe the "B" close to the upper right corner? This aims to demonstrate the "evil" (side) effect of a spotlight: anything inside the focus obscures the surrounding area. And this is my question: Have we, the JW put so much emphasis, for decades and decades, to the extended applications of some cherished, favorite verses till the point to obscure the more basic, beautiful and inspired meaning? Only two examples: (Proverbs 27:23) "You should know well the appearance of your flock…" Ask any brother around the world about the meaning of this verse. "Easy: the spiritual shepherds should be familiar with the situation and problems of the brothers in the congregation." Right, this has been always the "spotlight" we've found reading our literature, hearing in the meetings and attending several schools. But this is an extended application. Not the real use for the writer of Proverbs. And this inspired meaning is, obviously more important than our "added" point. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've only read once in my life the exact meaning of the verse quoted: w91 8/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers *** What basic counsel is Proverbs 27:23 offering to spiritual shepherds as well as to Christians in general? Follow part of the article: ====================================== "...The book of Proverbs contains many verses that stand alone as pithy statements of counsel, but Proverbs 27:23 is part of a group of verses: “You ought to know positively the appearance of your flock. Set your heart to your droves; for treasure will not be to time indefinite, nor a diadem for all generations. The green grass has departed, and the new grass has appeared, and the vegetation of the mountains has been gathered. The young rams are for your clothing, and the he-goats are the price of the field. And there is a sufficiency of goats’ milk for your food, for the food of your household, and the means of life for your girls.”—Proverbs 27:23-27. This inspired passage extols having a life-style marked by diligence, industriousness, simplicity, and recognition of our dependence on Jehovah. It does this by highlighting the pastoral life of an Israelite shepherd, perhaps in contrast with a flamboyant life based on business deals and quick riches...." "...Proverbs 27:26, 27 mentions one result of such labor—food and clothing. Granted, the description is not of fancy convenience foods or gourmet specialties, nor does it give a laborer reason to expect clothing in the latest designer style or the best material. But if he was willing to put forth effort, the shepherd and his family could obtain from the flock milk (and thus cheese), as well as wool for weaving sturdy garments. So the advice: “You ought to know positively the appearance of your flock” is not primarily for spiritual overseers; it is for all Christians. It underscores the value of our being content with sustenance and covering obtained by steady, diligent work," ====================================== End of the quote Aren't these fine admonitions! I'm sad that this basic, genuine and inspired teaching remains blurred under the light power of the dozens of our "extended" applications. And what now? Are we without verses to encourage to our shepherds in this regard? By no means! Perhaps Acts 20:28 "Pay attention...to all the flock?" between many others. Any way, if we are tempted to continue with our indiscriminate custom, let's consider this wise advice: *** w72 8/15 p. 499 Questions That Disturb You—What Should You Do? *** Quote follows====================================== However, we should not be indiscriminate and careless in applying Bible texts, remembering, rather, that the contextual application is the primary and basic one. If it is possible to use the text in a secondary or broader application in principle, it can add force to our presentation to point out to our hearers the basic contextual sense and to make clear that we are using the text in its secondary application, applying it only in principle. ====================================== End of the quote What do you think about my view? Ah, it remains another blatant example, but better for another post My affection to everyone, and I apologize for my English, not my mother language.