ComfortMyPeople

I, as a Witness, feel relatively proud of my Bible knowledge. I also appreciate a lot of excellent articles, emotive videos and many other educational materials our people receive from the brothers on charge. The steward class. Also, when I observe some brothers talking in our TV channel I cannot but feel upbuilding. Well, one of my complaints is to observe that the average JW know perfectly well different passages related to a lot of themes, and that is good! But I find an enormous lack of knowledge of the Bible books content for themselves. What I mean: what Galatians book does talk about? Common answer: · The fight of Paul with Peter · The works of the flesh and the fruitage of the spirit · If a man takes a false step · And yes, many other verses But I appreciate if we could, more or less easily, explain the connections between the different parts in Galatians. The reason why Paul wrote in this way. The meaning in context. Also, if Paul tried similar theme (the Law and the faith) in the Romans letter, what are the differences between these two letters? But sadly, I’ve discover that not only others, I myself have trouble to answer the questions above. Why if I’ve spent all my life attending meetings, studying, preaching, directing Bible studies? In my opinion, perhaps wrong opinion: · Our literature (now I will show the exceptions) have focus in Bible themes and its application, not Bible books and its content. · The explanation of Bible passages is spread all over decades · It is quite rare to find the explanation of the context in any given text used in our publications. Only the use the writer wants to make of it is explained. · A lot of passages are without any comment Exceptions Prophetic Books: · Isaiah · Daniel · Ezekiel · Revelation But, all these, full of types-antitypes old-aged stuff. Poetic books: · Some Psalms series · Some Proverbs series · Ecclesiastes Spread in a lot of years Historic books: · The Gospels · Acts Pastoral letters · John letters (too short articles in magazines) · James (the best one!) · Peter letters What I mean with this: I’m missing some kind of Bible Encyclopedia edited by JW. In this way, when I consult other sources,I must continuously discard false teachings trying to find the explanations of the Bible Books contents. What do you think?

I believe that this concern is mainly because we have been taught directly or indirectly that, since we are the people of God, we are the only ones who are going to be saved. The answer in our web site: https://www.jw.org/es/testigos-de-jehová/preguntas-frecuentes/quiénes-se-salvarán/#?insight[search_id]=8560e19f-338c-4efb-bf59-5054f29e9164&insight[search_result_index]=0 is politically correct, but not fully sincere. @JW Insider has already mention this. Almost every Witness firmly believe the world (of people alienated from God) will perish. Why preach then, if other people supposedly be saved without our efforts? Proof of this doctrine: · Those who were in the ark were saved, but nobody was. · Those who left Sodom were saved, not those who remained. · The world will be divided between sheep -saved- and goats -destroyed-. There will be no third class · Those who do not obey the good news will "burn" in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction (2Th 1;8-9) · Many others points But, let’s consider: The goats will be judged according to their attitude to Jesu’s brothers. But what if in a particular place of the planet never the Bible has reached. Or in some mental institution. Would not it be unfair be judged as not supporter of Christ’s brother if this person never has ben in touch with any Chris’s brother, not even any JW’s? Some wicked will be “buried” for lack of obedience to the Good News. But what if they never heard the good news? Lot’s daughters are a weak model of morality if we’re going to be represented by them Yes, many brothers feel more comfortable thinking that Jehovah will produce an almost miraculous event so that the good news reaches every corner on Earth. Or that God will make the right people meet with Witnesses. And that is perfectly possible! But, if He chooses to forgive those who have not had the opportunity to "be with us" (Mark 9:40) will anyone dare to criticize Him? Will someone say: if I get to know that God is going to save them too, I would not have preached so much? --Jonah 4: 2 I do not!

(Romans 2:14-16)  For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. According these words, some people will not be judged as belonging to some religion, but regarding the deeds they did and their conscience approve or disapprove

Ezequiel 44:25 2Sam 24:14

Years ago, when reflecting about this same fact, I came to the same conclusion: Jehovah propitiated, tolerated in some way that His people was taught with a false, or incorrect idea, in order to a higher benefit: strengthen the resolution of witnesses during IIWW in order to face the cruel persecution. But, some questions arise: · Did the Christians of the first century need to think incorrectly about Romans 13 in order to resist the persecution of Nero? · When our point of view was finally rectified (I believe in 1963 or close) did the brethren under the steel curtain begin to be less faithful then? The answer is obvious. Isn’t it? I fully agree with you regarding Moses, Israelites, loyalty and faith. So, perhaps you’re annoying, to some extent, with thoughts openly exposed here by @JW Insider or myself, in the sense that certain teachings or explanations of the "slave class" are incorrect. · In the first place, is it necessary to be faithful to accept all the explanations provided by the slave? · Can I be faithful if, although I am not convinced of certain explanations, I try not to disturb others and I go ahead? Let me explain what I’m trying to do with this kind of situations. In the recent regional convention, in the last talk, was mentioned the end is imminent (well, the Spanish expression was “inminente”, I suppose in English was used another equivalent). Now, not that I do not believe that the end is imminent, is that I do not know. My base: our Master declaration: “…at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.” I’ve watched the danger of these kind of imprudent (in my view) declaration many times, during many years (1914, 1925, 1975, 1994 end of generation, now overlapped generation). Brothers disappointed, at some degree bitter. The clear majority of Jehovah’s servants don’t need a false sense of immediacy. We give Him the most day by day. The end will come at his own due time. Concerning this, one question: · Is it more loyal if you strive because you believe that the end is imminent? · What happens to those who do not know when the end comes, and despite this we give Jehovah one hundred percent? · Are we therefore less loyal? Do you know, in my zone, the most repeated expression after the convention? “the end is imminent, the slave said this”. My answer: “oh yes, when I was a child also believed the end was imminent, in 1975. Sometimes our wishes are so strong that make this kind of statements”. Oh, I wish go further, but for several weeks I’ll be busy

What does not cease to amaze me, and at the same time causes me deep sadness, is the lack of humility in expressing our positions regarding prophecies. I would like a tone more as if we were "Students of the Bible" But we usually speak as "touched" by God. Like their Channel, in the sense that when the GB meets on Wednesdays the Shekhina light shines on them. I remember at a recent annual meeting the brother explaining a new prophetic understanding. In closing he said something like "are not we happy to see how Jehovah has shown us these things?" I thought, "And if in a while you have to teach just the opposite, is Jehovah wrong now?" I mean, (I've said it many times in several posts) Why do not we do like the recent Watchtower we studied, regarding what Jesus meant when he asked Peter "Do you love me more than these?" W17, May, p. 22 “After serving them breakfast, Jesus turned to Simon Peter and said: “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” To what was Jesus referring? Peter was quite attached to fishing. So it seems that Jesus was asking him where his true affection lay” The explanation is presented as a probability. That is humility. And with the HUGE amount of evidence pointing to the weakness of 607, seven times, 1914, parousia = presence, invisible parousia, etc, etc., how good would it be that we were humbler. Above, I have said that this astonishes me. I ask myself, "Do not the responsible brothers see the amount of evidence in another direction? It cannot be, because I am rather limited, and I see it. Don’t they realize that we may incur in God's displeasure if we remain so stubborn? Are not we loving our traditions too much? By the way, thank you very much @JW Insider for providing us with such complete and scholarly information.

You read my mind! Sadly, many do think that 1914 is a backbone doctrine. And to a great extent this is so when we refer to how we understand the prophecies of the last days. How sad that Russell when he looked at adjusting the failures regarding dates found interesting Benjamin Wilson (and his use of parousia in the Diaglott) and did not get to familiarize himself with the recent findings (at that time) of Deissmann, regarding the specialized use of parousia (The visit of the king), different from the common (presence). How much I would like to comment on this! But now I'm right in the middle of a move to another city!!

I would love to have more time for this subject! In the way we are accustomed, is nonsense today. Even worse, I think it goes against the biblical spirit. I do not say it is not useful, but it is not biblical. I think it is a remnant of times when we were forced more or less directly to meet goals, reach objectives / numbers. It also provides a misleading sense of "flock knowledge" to shepherds: many hours = all good; Few = something wrong. But sometimes, the opposite is true! I have witnessed (as secretary) the brother's embarrassment when delivering a very low report, only that month had problems. This same week, when recommending the C.O. a new ministerial servant, this brought to light that the hours were "a little scarce". In fact, if the elders know the brothers, we do not need cards. We know if he comes to meetings to preach, if he made arrangements with others... Anyway, I'm not saying that some members with special jobs in our organization should not report. But not for all brotherhood. For you to see how obedient I am, of course, I also report! By the way, to put gasoline on fire: (2 Samuel 24:1-3) "The anger of Jehovah again blazed against Israel when one incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.” So the king said to Joʹab the chief of the army who was with him: “Please go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beʹer-sheʹba, and register the people, so that I may know the number of the people.” But Joʹab said to the king: “May Jehovah your God multiply the people 100 times, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it, but why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?”

I suppose you’re aware your comments are most derogatory and, in my opinion, unfortunate. For we, the JW's, one of the most reprehensible sins is to be considered as apostate. The Insight book declares under this term: “…a withdrawal or abandonment of the true cause, worship, and service of God, and hence an abandonment of what one has previously professed and a total desertion of principles or faith. I don’t view myself as apostate, I’ve not abandoned my faith nor my religion. You probably are worried, sincerely worried and indignant because some in this forum should ponder these principles: · Jud 8 “despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones” · 1Cor 1:10 “you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” Quoting the Insight-Jonah reference: “Another evidence testifying to the authenticity of this Bible book is its candor. Jonah’s improper attitude toward his commission and concerning God’s action in sparing the Ninevites is not covered over” This candor is one of the evidences the Bible is the book of God. There is no cover over any sin, mistake or lack of judgment of the anointed ones leading the people. Where have we learned that Noah got drunk, or David killed Uriah? In false religion’s books of that period? How did we have knowledge about the fight between Paul and Barnabas, or the lack of judgment of Peter? Through Simon the magician posts? Why Jehovah didn’t consider it proper to cover these mistakes? You don’t think the Bible is an apostate book because is full with faults of God’s people in all ages, do you? And these mistakes were presented as such, as errors. Not in the style: “well, we, despite all almost hit the mark.” The situation is that if we read in the Bible about errors this is proof of their humility. But if we read or talk about our present day mistakes, we’re apostates. The motivation @JW Insider, me and others share is, precisely avoiding others have the necessity to reach to poisonous places to find some facts we have denied. We have denied because are hidden or “colored” Regarding the coloration process @JW Insider has provided a lot of PROOFS. I just wish to recall one I’ve written about. Recently we study in our Watchtower study there were errors in last century, for example when the Watchtower gave support to the peace initiative of president Wilson. But, in reality, the petition in our magazine not was a petition to pray for peace, instead, to pray for USA would win the war. Now, what is it better, to hide this (lack of sincerity / half-truth)? But the information, the real information is spread all around the world. You can easily find the President Wilson exact petition and the word by word article in the 1918 Watchtower. Regarding the late point. Why have I had to reach “dangerous” sites to get all the Watchtower articles, from 1879? Why my religion didn’t provide a “safe” place to download absolutely all this older literature? If you read our posts with other glasses you easily see that we’re trying to justify the brothers on charge. But no describing them as “almost-inspired” but as they really are: mere humans. Now, you mention “unrepentant ones should not be disfellowshipped” but I never have mention this. Expulsion has Bible basis. But the “mechanism” to dealt with has been subject to changes. Do you grant the possibility of new changes? If so, these new changes will try to fix injustices or problems with our position. Meanwhile, what should we do with these injustices? These problems are openly seen by the world and by a lot of loyal brothers. You also mention that if I don’t believe that Christ begun to rule in 1914 I should leave my religion! Should have I abandon when the 1975 affair? What backbone, determinant, core teaching is 1914 for you! But not hundreds, nor thousands, but hundreds of thousands of brothers can’t explain which is the Bible basis for this teaching!! Should they leave their religion? I and other with this posture firmly believe we’re serving with the people Jehovah is using for His purpose. But, remember, @bruceq, sometimes God’s people has needed cleaning. Why not now? Is, perhaps, more relevant the role of the present-day GB than the older times apostles? If Christ had to clean the seven congregations (in spite of the apostles influence) why in these days is impossible a new cleaning, in spite of the GB influence?

Yes, I see your point, but , @TrueTomHarley , It seems that it was not very confidential... Gal 2:14 "But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news,+ I said to Ceʹphas* before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do and not as Jews do, how can you compel people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”+ " 2 Sam 12:12 "Although you acted in secret,+ I will do this in front of all Israel and in broad daylight"

I'd like to share some comments. But these are very busy days for me.

Where they disrespectful? Ex 18:17: Moses’ father-in-law said to him: “What you are doing is not good.” A non-Israelite making amends to the greatest prophet! 2Sam 12:7: Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! (Murderer and adulterer!) 1Chro 21:3 “But Joab said: “May Jehovah multiply his people 100 times! My lord the king, are not all of them already servants of my lord? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he become a cause of guilt to Israel?” The anointed interpellated as causing trouble to the nation! Gal 2:14 “But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news I said to Cephas before them all…” Even the behavior was anything but exemplary. Likewise, JWInsider, me and other have scriptural evidence that disagreement is not equal to disrespect. We’re not saying the GB are persons that deceitfully want to exploit us. On the contrary, many of us think these brothers are, basically faithful and prudents. We would not want to be marked with these strong words: (Jud 8) “…despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones…” But we think the brothers in the GB are LIKE US… mere mortals, mere humans, imperfects. With their phobias and philias. They, like me, are afraid of losing authority or credibility when recognizing mistakes. They, like me, are afraid the humbles ones perhaps start thinking this is not the correct religion when seeing mistakes… Do these commentaries make others to stumble? Do vaccines hurt? Absolutely. The necessary hurt to get immunity. You probably are aware Native Americans almost disappeared because their bodies lacked defenses. And this is our intention (JWInsider and me). To inoculate defenses against doubts asking the similar questions these other brothers would find, sooner or later. And don’t obviate the obvious! We’re are active JW. We’re giving support to this people. We’re following the direction of the brothers on authority… year after year, for decades.

(Luke 12:47, 48) ". . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him." Will these words be fulfilled? Were they a symbolic warning?

I specially agree with the sentence: “…faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.” But we are still anchored to this doctrine -1914 date- for more than a century. Does it show humility? Could you show scriptural proof that thing as the Gentile Times has something to do with Daniel 4? Reread please my bullet points about “violates the five fingers”. I feel gratitude toward Jehovah because He has blessed Russell and others to discover the basic foundational, core teachings that are the framework of our doctrines. But, regarding dates and prophecies… no one become accurate. Remember, by decades they thought the pyramid was a channel from God! Now, some one could say: “still remains 1914 no matter they were wrong in all its meaning”. But to base ALL our eschatology in a date not only is risky, but contrary the scriptures. Think for a moment. Do you really need this date at all to serve Jehovah with all your soul? Did Abraham need a date? No. Perhaps first Christians? Neither. Why you and me? I really needed a date when I was young. But this date made me quite fanatic. I used to preach “the end is at hand.” I used to focus on earthquakes and wars. What lack of appealing had my preaching work! Now here I am. Still preaching with all my soul. I’m not focusing in past dates as the beginning of the Kingdom. I’m eagerly expecting the future “adventum” of this kingdom. My ministry, sure as yours, is more attractive, more focused in kingdom blessings or the beauty of Bible. I sincerely believe that, sooner or later, at Jehovah due time, this 1914 doctrine will disappear. The later the worse. By the way. I must admit that I’ve had the privilege to meet a lot of humble brothers. The troops (I can’t find the English word for normal no privileged persons). As it rises in our organization, I’ve had more difficulties finding this humility. Perhaps that would explain that some cherished doctrines are so difficult to remove.

I fully agree! I share the feelings of many if I say that JWInsider has helped us to think a lot deeper. And his commentaries reveal a lot of knowledge! Thanks JWI for sharing

I’m exhausted following this topic. I think this thread about 1914 reflects very well the negative aspects reflected in these words: (1 Timothy 1:4) “…nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith…” 1914. Only available to intelligent people. When I was a teenager I felt very proud with myself because I was able to explain by heart the seven times prophecy. Perhaps only a third in my congregation, or less, could explain this reasonably well. Nowadays, I doubt if a few of the brotherhood could express intelligibly why we believe in the importance of this date. So, what about this basic principle? (1 Corinthians 1:26) “…For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, …” I’m amazed with the struggle with different technics to determine the accuracy or lack of exactitude of 1914. Even astronomic calculus with specialized software! Thanks, JWInsider! Plus a lot of historical and archeological skills. And, by the way. The humbler and less able to explain “deep” ideas like this, the more faith I see that these brothers have. More than me. 1914. A polysemic date. JWInsider has explained to the satiety that from its very beginning this date was conceived with other and changing meanings. Perhaps the most important change was to think that Christ’s presence started in 1874, and 1914 would mark the end of the human domination on Earth. Our present understanding is, as you all know, that Jesus started as king and his presence at that date. 1914. We need more than the Bible But other post, recently, has put it very clear, and I fully agree: (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial … so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work…” But now, it turns out that I must learn Archeology and History to determine the exact date Jerusalem was conquered 2500 years ago! 1914. In opposition to the spirit and the letter of Jesus’s words. The advice in the following passages is to live each day as if the Master could arrive in any moment. No trying to determine the length of a period of time, in order to calculate the prolongation of the “last days”, (Matthew 24:42) “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming…” But we officially believe Jesus really came in 1914, and from this date he is present… in fact ruling! The idea of two different kinds of arrivals (1914 as king, later as executor), this differentiation is not in the Bible. There is only ONE arrival. 1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith *** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers *** Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding. In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914? 1914. Violates the “five fingers” process. As I’ve expressed in other post. If we take verses on each side of the Bible we are incurring in a real danger of twisting the Scriptures. Let’s see. · What scriptural proof is there to consider Nebuchadnezzar type of Christ? · What scriptural proof is there to think the Nab. kingship represents God’s kingdom? · What proof is there to think the madness of the king represents the situation with God’s kingdom? · With what authority can we apply the rule of one day for a year in Num 14:34 or Eze 4:6 to Daniel’s prophecy? · Could we sure the term “times” in Daniel 4 and in Lu. 21:24 apply to the same period? o What’s the basis for this? o Does not it seem to fit word for word Lu 21:24 and Rev. 11:2? o Why, then, to base all our knowledge about the last days in a mere possibility? 1914 Alternatives. First Century fulfillment? JWInsider has pointed out the idea that Jesus was crowned in the first century. Even postulating that Revelation 12 was fully fulfilled at that time. I think that to consider that important parts of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century is going to the other extreme. It’s my humble opinion. Yes, it’s true that Revelation mention some past happenings, well direct or indirectly. (Revelation 1:5, 6) “… who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests…” And mention some of the developments as if they had already happened (Revelation 11:15) “…The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ…” But we could reach to another explanation WITHOUT HANGING in 1914. This better explained in another place. Suffice for now to think that these happenings took place neither in the first century nor in 1914. What problems arise with the first century fulfillment of Revelation? Rev 11:15-18 links the start of the kingdom to the resurrection time. These verses are a preamble of the next chapters, including the vision of chapter 12. (Revelation 11:15, 18) “…you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king …and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones…” (Revelation 12:10-17) “…Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom …So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, ...” There are remaining ones because some of them are on heaven while other are still enduring on earth. So, the resurrection has already begun in Rev. 12 time But the resurrection didn’t happen in the first century: (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) “…we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death …that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first…” How many times was David crowned? · (2 Samuel 2:4) “…Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David as king over the house of Judah…” · (2 Samuel 5:3) “…So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Jehovah. Then they anointed David as king over Israel.” In the same way, why could not be possible to view Jesus crowned in the first century, when he went to heaven, as many verses seems to probe and as JWInsider has aptly showed us? And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time? I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why? Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory. I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions. And, finally, in this way, we have that it’s perfectly possible the modern time fulfillment of Revelation (above all chapter 12), the coronation of Jesus in 33 (mainly, but not only over his congregation ) and modern times coronation when Jehovah order Him: “conquer your enemies” Please, please, please… it isn’t necessary 1914 at all! What if the coronation, most of the Revelation fulfillment is still future? Well, this is theme for other day…

The Five Fingers Rule Sometimes I’ve tried to help others not using the Scriptures to proof any kind of idea or behavior one person could have. I’ve used what I’ve denominated “the five fingers rule”, from the weakest to the stronger evidence Only one finger: the evidence is only in the same division of the Bible, Greek or Hebrew Scriptures. This is the weakest evidence. The explanation about our verse under scrutiny is in the “other side” of the Bible. We’re trying to prove some idea based in the Hebrew Scriptures with another verse from Greek Scriptures, or vice versa. So, there are centuries of distance in the meaning, language, cultural environment and God’s dealings. If we use this approach we should be very careful. Only if we have direct mention of some application in the Bible we should feel free to try the same, for example: (Matthew 24:15) “…when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet…” In spite we have here one verse in the Greek against other in the Hebrew Scriptures, as we have the direct mention of Christ we can, with confidence apply the verses. Conversely, when we read (Da 4:25) “seven times will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he grants it to whomever he wants”, and we try to apply the seven times to Jesus words in Lu 21:24 “…Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled” we only have a weak evidence. When we read in Daniel about “times”, we cannot think any mention in the Bible about “times” share the same or related meaning. And it seems a little bit farfetched to apply the Nebuchadnezzar happenings to Christ. Two fingers: the writer is contemporary. Either in the Greek or Hebrew period. Well, now our evidence has more weight. (Isaiah 37:22) “…The virgin daughter of Zion despises you…” (Jeremiah 14:17) “…For the virgin daughter of my people has been completely crushed and broken…” No problem when applying the term virgin to the nation of Israel. Three fingers: the verses share the same writer. But, perhaps, not the same book. (Romans 3:20) “…no one will be declared righteous before him by works of law…” (Galatians 2:16) “…not by works of law, but only through faith…” When we develop the idea about how obtain salvation, we have strong evidence, from the same Bible writer, clarifying the meaning. Four fingers. The evidence is in the same Bible book. Now, the evidence is still stronger. (Zechariah 1:8) “…I saw a vision in the night. There was a man riding on a red horse, and he stood still among the myrtle trees in the ravine; and behind him there were red, reddish-brown, and white horses...” (Zechariah 6:2, 3) “…The first chariot had red horses, and the second chariot, black horses. The third chariot had white horses, and the fourth chariot, speckled and dappled horses…” (Rev 6:4-7) “a fiery-colored horse… a black horse… a pale horse…” We have a good foundation If we think these horsemen represent angels. Both declaration in the same book of Zechariah share the same meaning: the horsemen meant spirits. And with Revelation, there is no other place in the Bible with this kind of visions. Five fingers: the complete evidence. Not only the same writer in the same book of the same period, but also in the immediate context. (1 Corinthians 2:7-9) “…But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, … But just as it is written: “Eye has not seen and ear has not heard, nor have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” The application, based in the same context has to do with the secret, hidden purpose of God, only revealed by His spirit. Applying the five fingers rule (2 John 7-11) “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist… The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. When we even refused to say hello to a disfellowshipped person, based in the previous word from John, are we aware than the apostle was writing about deceivers and antichrist? This is five fingers. But if we apply this radical behavior for the person being spoken in 1Cor. 5, we have only the two fingers evidence. The Corinthians received the instruction to avoid eating (fellowship). One more example: (Matthew 24:3) “...Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence…” (Matthew 24:30) “…Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, …” The five fingers rule determine that the sign of the presence is the same as the sing of the Son of man. By the way, a sign completely visible, as the lightning. Obviously they will be exceptions, but we should be cautious with these exceptions.

(Ezekiel 44:25, 26) “They should not approach any dead human, or they will become unclean. However, they may make themselves unclean for their father, mother, son, daughter, brother, or an unmarried sister. And after the purification of a priest, they should count off seven days for him” The priest should not contact any dead human… except his nearest relatives. Jehovah is very reasonable and comprehensive when dictating rules. Would not it be fine to apply the same principle when we deal with disfellowshipped people? Why Paul doesn’t mention these exceptions in 1Cor 5? Why Ezekiel doesn’t mention the priest’s wife? Perhaps, because the common sense would guide the application. It isn’t the same my cousin than my father, it is? Other reference: (Leviticus 21:1, 2) “Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “Talk to the priests, Aaron’s sons, and say to them, ‘No one should defile himself for a dead person among his people. But he may do so for a close blood relative, for his mother, his father, his son, his daughter, his brother,…”

And also Nathan the profet. (2 Samuel 7:1-3) "When the king was settled in his own house and Jehovah had given him rest from all his surrounding enemies, the king said to Nathan the prophet: “Here I am living in a house of cedars while the Ark of the true God sits in the midst of tent cloths.” Nathan replied to the king: “Go and do whatever is in your heart, for Jehovah is with you" Nathan the prophet made an error. He spoke without direct instructions from God! His counsel was unauthorized. Did David stop trusting him?

Very valid points!

I don't consider the "damage" for the 1914 teaching at the same level that the hell of fire teaching. Do you believe God torture bad persons in the hell? One of the outcomes from the 1914 teaching is "the sense of urgency". Not bad after all. And what do you think about this "false teaching"? (James 5:8) "You too exercise patience; make your hearts firm, because the presence of the Lord has drawn close." Obviously, it isn't a "false prophecy". But in no way the brothers find reliefe from their pains. All died. Do you argue against James?

JTR, I'm afraid this elephant is a mammoth. Too heavy for us. We need (2 Corinthians 4:7) . . .power beyond what is normal . . .

In other post, I’ve already mentioned this idea. And JWI continually makes reference to the same problem. 2 Tim 3:1-5 doesn’t concern with WORLD condition in the last days, but the CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION’s condition in that period of time. The other day, watching brother Malenfant in the video “Morality in the Last Days” (https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/LatestVideos/pub-jwb_201706_9_VIDEO) was hoping to observe any mention to the basic, real, authentic meaning of the verses. Another missed opportunity. Of course, I’m not meaning that we’re living in a wonderful world. On the contrary. Only that Paul wasn’t talking about the world. Note the related meaning of passages in chapters 2 and 3: (2 Timothy 2:16, 17) “But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hy·me·naeʹus and Phi·leʹtus are among them.” (2 Timothy 2:20, 21) “Now in a large house there are utensils not only of gold and silver but also of wood and earthenware, and some for an honorable use but others for a use lacking honor. So if anyone keeps clear of the latter ones” (2 Timothy 3:1-7) “But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth. (2 Timothy 3:13) But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. I would have appreciated if brother Malenfant, when quoting these verses, would said: “if in the congregation would have problems, according 2Tim 3, much worst would be the conditions in the world outside.” In this way, whilst extending the verses, not ignoring the basic and inspired meaning. By the way, as our extending applications aren’t inspired we must change once and again the explanations. The BEST explanation I’ve met in our publications is in this quite old magazine: Zion Watch Tower August 1891, Vol XII, No 9. Pages 1319 in the reprint. Article: “View from the Tower. PERILOUS TIMES AT HAND. I will quote the article entirely in another post. Only mention some interesting lines here: quote -------------- The Apostle forewarns the Church, not only of the certainty of such perils, and of their character, but also of their manner of approach. On one occasion he said, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [Such were the great and destructive papal powers.] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them." (Acts 20:29,30.) Some of these Paul and the early Church encountered in that day. Paul was often in perils among false brethren And he shows that from such false brethren, brethren who have erred from the truth and become teachers of false doctrine, will come the Church's greatest peril in these last times. (2 Tim. 2:16-18; 3:5.) And in order that we might recognize and beware of them, he very minutely described them, though the clear significance of the warning is somewhat beclouded by a faulty translation, So also the word apeithes, rendered "disobedient," signifies not persuaded; and the expression "disobedient to parents" would consequently signify not of the same persuasion, or not of the same mind as were the parents. -------------- end of quote So, in this way, our best known “disobedient” to parents would mean that these persons don’t follow the former, the predecessors the ancestor teachers of the congregation, not children crying against their parents.

Yes, Shiwiii, perhaps is as false as this false teaching: (Galatians 2:11-13) “However, when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him face-to-face, because he was clearly in the wrong. For before certain men from James arrived, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcised class. The rest of the Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense” Now, what if I openly declare the 1914 is a false teaching! I believe there is in the God’s word principles to guide my behavior: (1 Corinthians 15:12) “Now if it is being preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how is it that some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead?” In this way, the Bible discourages spread different teachings between brothers. Of course, you’re saying: “it isn’t the same 1914 that the resurrection” … and you’re right. But the Bible obliges me to refrain, to abstain to exercise some rights to benefit others: not eat meat or not make secular work on sabbath to protect the conscience of others. (Romans 14:5-12) "One man judges one day as above another; …The one who observes the day observes it to Jehovah… the one who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, … Not one of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only… But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. … So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God." Even Jesus Crist follow a “false teaching” to avoid stumble others: (Matthew 17:27) “But that we do not cause them to stumble, go to the sea, cast a fishhook, and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth, you will find a silver coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you.” So, my attitude is not stumble others. And regarding the person on charge of teaching to the worldwide brotherhood, well, I’ve quoted before: “each of us will render an account for himself to God”

I find it difficult and often embarrassing to discuss with people if these times are worse than the previous ones. I dislike focusing in “bad news”, you know: these earthquakes are more bad, the wars are more bad… Above all when my interlocutor is a well-informed person. This person easily could bring to my attention data as follows (from our publications) *** g04 5/22 pp. 4-5 The Age-Old Fight for Better Health *** [The Black Death] Within four years, say some historians, the plague spread throughout Europe and about a third of the population lost their life—perhaps between 20 million and 30 million people. Even remote Iceland was decimated. It is said that in the Far East, the population of China slumped from 123 million at the beginning of the 13th century to 65 million during the 14th century, apparently as a result of the plague and the accompanying famine. No previous epidemic, war, or famine had ever caused such widespread suffering. “It was a disaster without equal in human history,” notes the book Man and Microbes. “Somewhere between one-quarter and one-half of the people in Europe, North Africa, and parts of Asia perished.” The Americas escaped the ravages of the Black Death, thanks to their isolation from the rest of the world. But oceangoing ships soon brought that isolation to an end. In the 16th century, a wave of epidemics that proved even more lethal than the plague ravaged the New World. In 1518 an outbreak of smallpox erupted on the island of Hispaniola. Native Americans had never been exposed to smallpox before, and the effect was catastrophic. A Spanish eyewitness estimated that only a thousand people on the island survived. The epidemic soon spread to Mexico and Peru, with similar consequences. The following century, when the Pilgrim settlers arrived in the area of Massachusetts in North America, they discovered that smallpox had practically cleared the land of inhabitants. “The natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox,” wrote Pilgrim leader John Winthrop. Other epidemics followed smallpox. According to one source, by a century after Columbus’ arrival, imported diseases had wiped out 90 percent of the population of the New World. The population of Mexico had shrunk from 30 million to 3 million, that of Peru from 8 million to one million. **************************** Yes, now I should mention there are more epidemies, wars and so. I, instead, prefer to discuss about the value of Bible advice, the gems about God’s personality and similar, positive ideas. As JWI has pointed out. Christ sign would have no doubt (Matthew 24:30) “Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief” No debate, no discussion, no doubt. This was the exact answer of Jesus about the sign his disciples asked him before. I once heard a brother from GB, when visiting Spain, explain that there are TWO signs. The first (wars, famine, etc.) would happen on earth. The second one would be the sing of Son of Man, and this would happen on heavens. Well, the fact is that Jesus only mention ONE sign. As impossible to deny as the flash of lightning. There is no necessity to struggle with unbelievers to try to convince them. What about wars, earthquakes and pestilence? Jesus, specifically said: (Matthew 24:6-8) “You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress” In other words. The wars, famine and calamities are proof we would be in THE BEGINNING of distress. Not a sign at all. THE HORSEMEN The picture well describes the universal taught about this vision: the catastrophic world conditions in the final era. We, the JW, properly view that these happenings occur after Jesus ride. Well, put it simple, I think this approximation has no scriptural base… at all. These are not world condition when Christ rules, they are, rather direct judgments of Christ against the enemies, when he starts his judgment against Babylon. The proof? Always, always, always (three times) the Bible mention colorful horses, these meant angels, not situations: (Zechariah 1:8-10) . . .“I saw a vision in the night. There was a man riding on a red horse, and he stood still among the myrtle trees in the ravine; and behind him there were red, reddish-brown, and white horses.” So I said: “Who are these, my lord?” The angel who was speaking with me replied: “I will show you who these are.” Then the man who was standing still among the myrtle trees said: “These are the ones whom Jehovah has sent out to walk about in the earth.”. (Zechariah 6:1-5) . . .Then I looked up again and saw four chariots coming from between two mountains, and the mountains were of copper. The first chariot had red horses, and the second chariot, black horses. The third chariot had white horses, and the fourth chariot, speckled and dappled horses. I asked the angel who was speaking with me: “What are these, my lord?” The angel answered me: “These are the four spirits of the heavens that are going out after having taken their station before the Lord of the whole earth. . . And, what we find as the mechanism using by Jehovah when punishing His enemies? These days that we’re reading Ezequiel, we are reading quite a few verses with the same idea: God will punish his enemies with: the sword of war, famine and pest. Why not the same in the future? Only one collateral idea. Will resurrect this persons? We have no problem to think that many of the people from ancient times who perished in that judgements, under the Babylonian or Assyrian siege will resurrect. Why not the people -or some people- during the Great Tribulation? Because is said the Hades is following the horsemen. Well, I’m not completely sure about all of this. But I find it solves more problems than the contraire.