ComfortMyPeople

Yes I remember such talks, but they were not the only talks I heard.
I suppose I was spoilt early on for this sort of pressure.  I learnt two things (which may or may not be orthodox), but they have stood me in good stead and, I believe, have served to prevent me from being quickly shaken from my reason or to be alarmed. (2Thess.2:2)
1. I shared lodgings with for a while with Hendry Carmichael, (Yearbook 1977 p81-83). I learned many things from this zealous, Glaswegian brother. He once said to me, with his twinkling blue eyes a-sparkle, "You know laddie, your Armageddon came the day you heard the good news, because what you do with it will make an everlasting difference to your future!".
2. Over the years, I have been blessed with many, wonderful bible studies who have progressed to dedication and baptism, including a woman who is now my wife and pioneer partner. She said to me recently that it sadddens her sometimes to hear that the end is as imminent as many brothers emphasize. I know what she means. If the end had come in 1975, she would not have found the truth. (And nor me, her). And when it does come, there will be no others to save out of this wicked world. I know the resurrection will afford unimaginable opportunities to help people learn the truth of God's puposes, but we are meeting new ones all the time now, and starting new studies, in a part of the world I was told is "unproductive"!
So what am I saying? Well, my Armageddon (figurative of course), has long come and gone, and I am making every effort to ensure that when the real one does, I am rightly disposed for everlasting life.(Acts 13:48). And as far as the time left is concerned? Well, every day in this system of things, lives are being saved in evidence of Jehovah's patience. (Ex.18:23) And we can have as much a share in this as our volunteer sprit impels. (2Cor.9:6-7) There is no organisation on earth that facilitates this work in the way that Jehovah's Witnesses do. (Mich.4:1-2)
And that I think, for me anyway, captures the essence of 1Tim.4:16: "Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you."

Thanks for the response. I tagged your name there in case I had it wrong. You might have been enlightened through a yoga epiphany or something you read, after all.
Yes, it was "merely" the end of 6,000 years but with an important catch that every circuit overseer repeated at each visit for a while there. Whenever Eve was created, that's when the 6th day ended. The great tribulation would start exactly 6,000 years from Eve's creation. So we'd get talks about how Adam had ONLY ONE JOB! To name the animals. And he didn't have to go to them, they came to him. After seeing all the animals he recognized he needed a mate, too. It could have been a matter of months, or even weeks, NOT YEARS!
*** w68 8/15 p. 499 par. 30 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
And yet the end of that sixth creative “day” could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam’s creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.
If it was not years then, in standard English, it could be one year, possibly 1.1 to 1.9 years, but must be less than two years. This was why the Awake! article indirectly mentioned 1977 as a time when this system would be well on its way out, if not actually gone. This is saying that it probably must happen before October 1977. Whether you put the emphasis on the "probably" or the "must" was a kind of a test of how mature you were, or how much you trusted the Governing Body. (In those days the Governing Body was still just another name for the  "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society."
So everything fit so well, because the generation of 1914 should have been at least 10 to 15 years old by 1914 to "discern" the significance of the sign. That meant they were born around 1900. That meant they were going to be about 75 years old by 1975. A Biblical lifespan is 70 or 80; so that's also about 75. So, not just the end of the 6,000 years, but the year 1975 itself, became the "appropriate time for God to act." At the very worst, in the mind of Fred Franz and those willing to echo him, it meant no more than 5 years past 1975. This is why we got articles that said "What will the 1970's bring?" And that article talking about it being a matter of a few "months" at the most "not years" after 1975. Even with a few "age" adjustments for the 1914 generation, several of the publications and assembly talks continued to mention that this system of things could not go on past the end of the twentieth century. That type of talk lasted until 1989.
For all I know, I did much better than I might have otherwise. At any rate, I have enjoyed all aspects of service, an my only complaint in life right now is stiff knees, and I never get enough sleep. But I still feel badly for those who made decisions without proper guidance, context, support, and who were left without a back-up plan. We have to at least participate in the responsibility of our decisions anyway.
*** w14 4/15 pp. 25-26 par. 17 Be of Good Courage—Jehovah Is Your Helper! ***
17 Seek Jehovah’s direction before you make decisions and commitments, not after making them. Pray for his holy spirit, wisdom, and guidance. (2 Tim. 1:7) Ask yourself: ‘Under what circumstances am I willing to obey Jehovah? Even under persecution?’ If so, are you willing to obey him when it may mean having to lower your standard of living? (Luke 14:33) Ask the elders for Scriptural advice, and show your faith and trust in Jehovah’s promise to help you by following his counsel. The elders cannot make decisions for you, but they can help you make choices that will lead to happiness in the long run.—2 Cor. 1:24.
 

Where they disrespectful?
Ex 18:17: Moses’ father-in-law said to him: “What you are doing is not good.” A non-Israelite making amends to the greatest prophet!
2Sam 12:7: Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! (Murderer and adulterer!)
1Chro 21:3 “But Joab said: “May Jehovah multiply his people 100 times! My lord the king, are not all of them already servants of my lord? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he become a cause of guilt to Israel?” The anointed interpellated as causing trouble to the nation!
Gal 2:14 “But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news I said to Cephas before them all…” Even the behavior was anything but exemplary.
Likewise, JWInsider, me and other have scriptural evidence that disagreement is not equal to disrespect. We’re not saying the GB are persons that deceitfully want to exploit us. On the contrary, many of us think these brothers are, basically faithful and prudents. We would not want to be marked with these strong words: (Jud 8) “…despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones…”
But we think the brothers in the GB are LIKE US… mere mortals, mere humans, imperfects. With their phobias and philias. They, like me, are afraid of losing authority or credibility when recognizing mistakes. They, like me, are afraid the humbles ones perhaps start thinking this is not the correct religion when seeing mistakes…
Do these commentaries make others to stumble?
Do vaccines hurt? Absolutely. The necessary hurt to get immunity. You probably are aware Native Americans almost disappeared because their bodies lacked defenses. And this is our intention (JWInsider and me). To inoculate defenses against doubts asking the similar questions these other brothers would find, sooner or later.
And don’t obviate the obvious! We’re are active JW. We’re giving support to this people. We’re following the direction of the brothers on authority… year after year, for decades.

Where they disrespectful?
Ex 18:17: Moses’ father-in-law said to him: “What you are doing is not good.” A non-Israelite making amends to the greatest prophet!
2Sam 12:7: Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! (Murderer and adulterer!)
1Chro 21:3 “But Joab said: “May Jehovah multiply his people 100 times! My lord the king, are not all of them already servants of my lord? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he become a cause of guilt to Israel?” The anointed interpellated as causing trouble to the nation!
Gal 2:14 “But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news I said to Cephas before them all…” Even the behavior was anything but exemplary.
Likewise, JWInsider, me and other have scriptural evidence that disagreement is not equal to disrespect. We’re not saying the GB are persons that deceitfully want to exploit us. On the contrary, many of us think these brothers are, basically faithful and prudents. We would not want to be marked with these strong words: (Jud 8) “…despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones…”
But we think the brothers in the GB are LIKE US… mere mortals, mere humans, imperfects. With their phobias and philias. They, like me, are afraid of losing authority or credibility when recognizing mistakes. They, like me, are afraid the humbles ones perhaps start thinking this is not the correct religion when seeing mistakes…
Do these commentaries make others to stumble?
Do vaccines hurt? Absolutely. The necessary hurt to get immunity. You probably are aware Native Americans almost disappeared because their bodies lacked defenses. And this is our intention (JWInsider and me). To inoculate defenses against doubts asking the similar questions these other brothers would find, sooner or later.
And don’t obviate the obvious! We’re are active JW. We’re giving support to this people. We’re following the direction of the brothers on authority… year after year, for decades.

Where they disrespectful?
Ex 18:17: Moses’ father-in-law said to him: “What you are doing is not good.” A non-Israelite making amends to the greatest prophet!
2Sam 12:7: Then Nathan said to David: “You are the man! (Murderer and adulterer!)
1Chro 21:3 “But Joab said: “May Jehovah multiply his people 100 times! My lord the king, are not all of them already servants of my lord? Why does my lord want to do this? Why should he become a cause of guilt to Israel?” The anointed interpellated as causing trouble to the nation!
Gal 2:14 “But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news I said to Cephas before them all…” Even the behavior was anything but exemplary.
Likewise, JWInsider, me and other have scriptural evidence that disagreement is not equal to disrespect. We’re not saying the GB are persons that deceitfully want to exploit us. On the contrary, many of us think these brothers are, basically faithful and prudents. We would not want to be marked with these strong words: (Jud 8) “…despising authority, and speaking abusively of glorious ones…”
But we think the brothers in the GB are LIKE US… mere mortals, mere humans, imperfects. With their phobias and philias. They, like me, are afraid of losing authority or credibility when recognizing mistakes. They, like me, are afraid the humbles ones perhaps start thinking this is not the correct religion when seeing mistakes…
Do these commentaries make others to stumble?
Do vaccines hurt? Absolutely. The necessary hurt to get immunity. You probably are aware Native Americans almost disappeared because their bodies lacked defenses. And this is our intention (JWInsider and me). To inoculate defenses against doubts asking the similar questions these other brothers would find, sooner or later.
And don’t obviate the obvious! We’re are active JW. We’re giving support to this people. We’re following the direction of the brothers on authority… year after year, for decades.

I appreciate your position on these chronology issues. I held on to some of them just as strongly as you from the time I was four until I was nearly twenty-four. I might have still been hanging on to them, even now, if it weren't for the fact that my assignment at Bethel put me right next to a member of the Governing Body (B.Schroeder) who had his own questions, and who also lashed out at others who had questions about them. While looking for solutions to some of these same questions, I became friends with other researchers, especially three non-GB brothers who had been the Writing Department's team researching articles for the "Aid Book" (now "Insight"). Some of them had been asked to look over the initial manuscript from an elder in Sweden, who had done a lot of research himself. The brother who assigned my research projects only showed me portions of it, and I didn't see the whole thing until another Brother, (F.Rusk) let me see it as he was working on it. This brother (Rusk) also gave the main part of my wedding talk (with the vows), and one of the brothers from the Aid Book research team also gave 30 minutes of my wedding talk.
But this manuscript, now a book, was of very little interest to me, because it was mostly about archaeological reasons not to try to "anchor" anything on 607. I was only interested in Bible topics, and didn't really think that counted. I don't think I would have necessarily discovered any of this on my own, and therefore I probably wouldn't even be here if it were not for discovering that several members of the Governing Body, and several members of the Writing Department also had doubts and questions about 1914 and related chronology issues, from a Biblical perspective.
So, now that you have impugned and imputed motives for me, I will let what you know what my real primary motives are:
Love of the Truth, Love for the whole association of brothers, A clean conscience, Of course, I realize you probably don't believe this, and further, you probably could not admit that you believed it if even you knew it was true. I'd prefer to assume that you are like me, when I was in your shoes, and preferred not to think about such questions, and assumed that anyone who asked me to think too strongly about such questions was some kind of apostate.
But, I can also explain why I have presented what I have on this particular forum. A conversation or presentation of information about the topic, still cannot happen in a normal congregation setting. This doesn't mean that it is not important to question. It is your Christian duty to question every claim, at least if you wish to be noble-minded.
I think that most of us who are willing to open up about these questions online all realize that we can't do this in our congregations, and yet we also realize that it is important to question. In a forum like this, where ideas can be exchanged, and challenged, we are also able to question without the same kind of effect that it would have inside the congregation. That's because no one needs to believe that we are sincere, if they don't want to. It's easy to dismiss any challenge by just saying things like: "I don't believe it;" "I don't want to look at the evidence;" "I think anyone who questions such things is probably an apostate." No one need be stumbled, because such information and questions are already all over the internet. 
Yet from the perspective of a Witness who has such a question, on a forum, they can ask any question and it is technically no different from any other person on the street asking such a question. Someone can say Trinity is taught in the Bible, and we can either defend our belief, ignore it, assume the person is sincere, assume the person is insincere, assume they are an ex-JW who has gone back like a dog to his vomit, assume they are just like a neighbor we met in service last week, assume they are dishonest, assume they are honest --- the point is that it doesn't matter. They are online, and we are online too. Therefore we are all subject to the rough and tumble world of online discussion -- a forum for ideas.
We can't claim we are stumbled by a non-Witness we meet at the door who could ask the very same question. Yet, they might have read about our belief in an apostate book or from an apostate site. In fact, a sincere non-JW we meet at the door, may be sincerely curious about whether or not something he or she read or heard is true or not. We could always just say: "Oh, we don't answer that particular question because it was once asked by an apostate." We don't think of doing that for questions about hell-fire or Trinity, or neutrality yet many of us are instantly inclined to respond like that if the question is about 1874, 1925, 1975, pyramids, miracle wheat, Hitler.
In fact, I've noticed that we are usually quite willing to discuss 1914 and its repercussions on other doctrines until WE start realizing that the questions are difficult. At that point, we tend to assume the question is no longer sincere, but is some kind of attack. And that's only based on the level of difficulty. We don't generally start lashing out and making accusations when we feel that our foundation is more solid, as it is on Trinity, hell-fire, neutrality, war, etc.
Now I admit that I made it easy for anyone who is uncomfortable to back away from the conversation when I mentioned the "deception" that invariably accompanies chronology doctrines, especially as time goes on, and no one wants to display their dirty laundry. This is a surprising point to a lot of people but it's easy to find the evidence. How many times have you heard or read something in the Watch Tower publications that sounded like this:  "Decades in advance, the Bible Students as Jehovah's Witnesses were known at the time, announced that 1914 would see the start of a great time of trouble." This has never been true. Decades in advance, 1914 was seen as the END of a great time of trouble not the beginning.
The July 15, 1894, Watch Tower said:
"But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble."
Granted, an adjustment to the doctrine occurred one decade prior to 1914, but not "decades" and it was not consistently held to for that entire decade in any case. This could be an honest mistake, even though it has been made at least a dozen times, but it still deceives people into thinking that it's a true statement. However, if we KNOW this, then we should renounce any association with such a claim for the sake of our conscience:
(2 Corinthians 4:2) But we have renounced the shameful, underhanded things, not walking with cunning or adulterating the word of God; but by making the truth manifest, we recommend ourselves to every human conscience in the sight of God.
However, my main goal here is not to highlight the "deceptions." These occur almost naturally and should be expected. My goal is to open up the discussion so that if it is wrong, or I am going down the wrong track, I can be corrected. If there is more to learn on the subject (and for me there is more to learn on any subject) the ideas are out there for anyone who is concerned to add to the discussion, and point out what's wrong. If we have questions on such a serious subject we should not keep them to ourselves, and we should not hold back from asking. We should test every expression, even if we feel it is as good as inspired. (1 Jn 4:1; 2 Th 2:2) It would be underhanded for us to keep such things hidden.
(Mark 4:22) 22 For there is nothing hidden that will not be exposed; nothing is carefully concealed that will not come out in the open.
I was also hoping to find others who might be willing to discuss some of these issues out in the open, and this has already occurred. There are several people who appear willing to discuss it further and I am very interested learning from their views. (Especially on Revelation 11 and 12 with @ComfortMyPeople since I think he has given this more thought than I have.) If you are not interested any further on this type of discussion, and that's your choice, of course.  But I'm sure you'd have something worth considering if you did participate.

I take this as a kind of rhetorical question. I think you have already pointed out why much of what happens on the human side of organizations is exactly what we would expect to happen. Similar issues came up in the first century congregations.
Each of us has a responsibility to question. But not everyone is in a position to take their own questions seriously, due to having already put that responsibility onto others. But that's also a natural consequence of our imperfection. So it's not ours to judge the level of understanding of anyone else. It's not ours to judge who was put in charge of much, or who thought they were put in charge of much. But in any case the principle is true. It shows up again when James says that "not all of you should become teachers." It shows up in Hebrews 13:17 "for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account." And Hebrews 5:12 shows that it's unavoidable that we will also have the need to rely on teachers. 
(Hebrews 5:12-14) 12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.
But none of these scriptures are specifically about the persons who publish and promote our doctrines. These scriptures are about all of us: all elders, and all others, too. All of us are expected to be stewards.
(1 Peter 4:10) 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
(1 Corinthians 4:2) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.
So the principle is surely for all of us. Faithfulness is expected of all of us. And the greater the responsibility, the more seriously we should take it. We may push off our responsibilities onto others, but ultimately:
(Galatians 6:4-6) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load. 6 Moreover, let anyone who is being taught the word share in all good things with the one who gives such teaching.

I specially agree with the sentence: “…faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.” But we are still anchored to this doctrine -1914 date- for more than a century. Does it show humility?
Could you show scriptural proof that thing as the Gentile Times has something to do with Daniel 4? Reread please my bullet points about “violates the five fingers”.
I feel gratitude toward Jehovah because He has blessed Russell and others to discover the basic foundational, core teachings that are the framework of our doctrines.
But, regarding dates and prophecies… no one become accurate. Remember, by decades they thought the pyramid was a channel from God!
Now, some one could say: “still remains 1914 no matter they were wrong in all its meaning”.
But to base ALL our eschatology in a date not only is risky, but contrary the scriptures.
Think for a moment. Do you really need this date at all to serve Jehovah with all your soul? Did Abraham need a date? No. Perhaps first Christians? Neither. Why you and me?
I really needed a date when I was young. But this date made me quite fanatic. I used to preach “the end is at hand.” I used to focus on earthquakes and wars. What lack of appealing had my preaching work!
Now here I am. Still preaching with all my soul. I’m not focusing in past dates as the beginning of the Kingdom. I’m eagerly expecting the future “adventum” of this kingdom. My ministry, sure as yours, is more attractive, more focused in kingdom blessings or the beauty of Bible.
I sincerely believe that, sooner or later, at Jehovah due time, this 1914 doctrine will disappear. The later the worse.
By the way. I must admit that I’ve had the privilege to meet a lot of humble brothers. The troops (I can’t find the English word for normal no privileged persons). As it rises in our organization, I’ve had more difficulties finding this humility. Perhaps that would explain that some cherished doctrines are so difficult to remove.

(Luke 12:47, 48) ". . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him."
Will these words be fulfilled? Were they a symbolic warning? 

(Luke 12:47, 48) ". . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him."
Will these words be fulfilled? Were they a symbolic warning? 

I can see that this "tossing about" appears to have definitely been the case for some of you, particularly those with a long history and previous generations of relatives associated with the morphing movement we know today as Jehovah's Witnesses. 
My own first hand experience with legacy association was with a friend, much older than me, whose father was one of the first two to become Bible Students in the UK in the 1880s. This gave me a good grounding in some of the "cloud-cuckoo-land" ideas held at various times over the years. 
That Pyramid stuff??? Wow! One of the first calls I ever had even before baptism was an actual Pyramidologist. That was an experience for someone who had only been associated 3 months.
It must be quite embarrassing to look back and realise what nonsensical rubbish (not just Pyramids) was actually taken seriously at one time, especially if you actually promoted it. The notion that one's loyalty is tested by moving with adjustments and avoiding the understandable temptation to "bite the hand that feeds" is likely not so far from the truth. Probably the 1975 thing is the most glaring example I have personally experienced, although I was thankfully enlightened about the erroneous expectations attached about 1972 or so, and seem to have avoided the "hysteria" others appear to have experienced. I'm looking forward to the Assembly bit on this. In fact,  I think I'll watch in advance as I will probably miss it with Assembly work as my "listening" Assembly has been cancelled due to "terrorism"!
As for strange Bethel behaviour, I remember one of our COs who told me that the first time he heard 4-letter words regularly used was in Bethel! However, Willi Diehl's father understated the matter perfectly in 1931 when he warned his son that "the brothers there are not angels"! (WT 1 Nov 1991 p26)
Funny though, I have never really been subjected to the intensity of weirdness that some others emphasize like the "subliminal art" stuff, or "personal Bible study policing" although these things obviously go on, and I have known some casualties.
I have experienced some child abusers and dodgy elders in my time, but have seen them get their come-uppance. 
Apart from time out to raise children, I have pioneered most of the time so this work and the responsibility of helping others to clean up their lives have been the main focus for me. The experience of observing the way applying Bible principles really changes people's lives for the better so radically has been enough to convince me of Jehovah's active involvement, and has likely minimised the effect of some of these other issues that apparently trouble so many.
So, enjoyed the exchange @JWInsider and other regular contributers. I'll be back some time, but for now I really have...........

[Referring especially to the half-dozen or so doctrinal changes related to the term "generation" through the years, along with numerous other doctrinal changes with respect to Matthew 24 & 25:]
That supposed anchor, as you called it, is just a "pretend" anchor anyway, allowing the doctrinal boat to drift along and shift and change, and get tossed about, and even require "tacking" which is a way that a boat can try to fight against the wind, and literally end up in a place that was exactly the opposite of where the "wind" was leading. (Note: Hebrew ruahh, spirit, wind)
(Ephesians 4:14) . . .So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.
*** w81 12/1 p. 27 par. 2 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***
2 However, it may have seemed to some as though that path has not always gone straight forward. At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. This might be compared to what is known in navigational circles as “tacking.” By maneuvering the sails the sailors can cause a ship to go from right to left, back and forth, but all the time making progress toward their destination in spite of contrary winds. . . . .19 Of course, such development of understanding, involving “tacking” as it were, has often served as a test of loyalty for those associated with the “faithful and discreet slave.”
The seriousness of the problem is that any reliance on chronology almost always involves deception. [even if that deception was not intentional] That's the point made in Ephesians 4:14. [In previous discussions evidence for all of the following points have been made and no one had any counter-evidence:]
There have already been at least a dozen times that the Watchtower has made claims about dates, including 1914, that were plainly not true. There have been claims about what was supposedly predicted decades prior to 1914 that you yourself have seen were not true. A video from the convention implies that the reason for the problem about 1975 started in the local congregations. This same implication has been made many times before. It has almost always been implied that most of what was expected for certain dates, even dates back into the 1800's were mostly correct, even though they were totally false. There has sometimes been a claim that minimizes the error, saying things like: they were expecting the right thing but at the wrong time; or That a particular false teaching was actually better than the true Biblical teaching, because it produced a necessary test of God's people, or That the wrong understanding helped bolster them for a time when they needed to stand up more strongly against enemies. The Watchtower has even gone so far as to print completely unsubstantiated, and flatly wrong, "scholarship" which has obviously deceived people into thinking there was some truth behind it. [Furuli's books, Appendix to the "Kingdom Come" book in 1981, etc.] This has been done by selective quoting, or by using the work of scholars who have been deceitful with evidence. The publications have produced statements about what we can know and what we cannot know about chronology through archaeology and history that have also proved to be deceptive.
I'm not claiming that the motive was dishonesty. People can easily be blinded by what they want to see. But the end result on the readers and audiences is still "deception."
A good example is the way in which C.T.Russell used measurements of the Great Pyramid. (It's an old enough example that it won't invoke biases for or against the current Governing Body, who are doing the exact same type of thing today.) His famous books, "Millennial Dawn" (Studies in the Scriptures) sold by the millions of copies worldwide. His most infamous doctrine was the proof that the Great Pyramid was "Jehovah's witness" in stone. It foretold the dates predicted in the Bible. Here is what he started saying in 1890, in Volume 3, along with an approving letter from an Egyptologist, and other information showing how some of the measurements in the Pyramid were accurate to within a fraction of an inch. (Where each "inch" represented a year, of course.)
"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1874 years AD. equals 3416 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject...   [all editions of Volume 3, prior to 1910]
Then he made a correction in 1910 when other Bible Students were getting very much involved in corroborating these numbers:
"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject..."
It doesn't matter if Russell was personally trying to be deceitful. He made this change without an explanation and the exact same data that once pointed to 1874 now pointed to 1915. (For a time 1915 was considered the Jewish "year" beginning in October 1914 through September 1915. But this was not consistent. As they got closer to the 1914 date, and stopped believing that all they had predicted was possible, there were statements that effectively would have meant that 1915 could even start in October 1915 and therefore run into 1916. It was the Great European War starting in mid-1914, that brought most of this diffusion back into a focus on 1914. Since then, the false claims made about Russell's predictions in a newspaper called "The World" have been quoted in Watch Tower publications about as often as any specific predictions made in our own publications.)
Russell used pseudo-archaeology to bolster his belief in the period from 1874 to 1914. The Watchtower has since used pseudo-archaeology to bolster the belief in the period from 1914 to the Great Tribulation.

I’m exhausted following this topic.
I think this thread about 1914 reflects very well the negative aspects reflected in these words:
(1 Timothy 1:4) “…nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith…”
1914. Only available to intelligent people.
When I was a teenager I felt very proud with myself because I was able to explain by heart the seven times prophecy. Perhaps only a third in my congregation, or less, could explain this reasonably well.
Nowadays, I doubt if a few of the brotherhood could express intelligibly why we believe in the importance of this date. So, what about this basic principle?
(1 Corinthians 1:26) “…For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, …” I’m amazed with the struggle with different technics to determine the accuracy or lack of exactitude of 1914. Even astronomic calculus with specialized software! Thanks, JWInsider! Plus a lot of historical and archeological skills.
And, by the way. The humbler and less able to explain “deep” ideas like this, the more faith I see that these brothers have. More than me.
1914. A polysemic date.
JWInsider has explained to the satiety that from its very beginning this date was conceived with other and changing meanings. Perhaps the most important change was to think that Christ’s presence started in 1874, and 1914 would mark the end of the human domination on Earth. Our present understanding is, as you all know, that Jesus started as king and his presence at that date.
1914. We need more than the Bible
But other post, recently, has put it very clear, and I fully agree:
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial … so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work…” But now, it turns out that I must learn Archeology and History to determine the exact date Jerusalem was conquered 2500 years ago!
1914. In opposition to the spirit and the letter of Jesus’s words.
The advice in the following passages is to live each day as if the Master could arrive in any moment. No trying to determine the length of a period of time, in order to calculate the prolongation of the “last days”,
(Matthew 24:42) “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming…” But we officially believe Jesus really came in 1914, and from this date he is present… in fact ruling! The idea of two different kinds of arrivals (1914 as king, later as executor), this differentiation is not in the Bible. There is only ONE arrival.
 1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith
*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers ***
Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.
In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914?
1914. Violates the “five fingers” process.
As I’ve expressed in other post. If we take verses on each side of the Bible we are incurring in a real danger of twisting the Scriptures. Let’s see.
·        What scriptural proof is there to consider Nebuchadnezzar type of Christ? ·        What scriptural proof is there to think the Nab. kingship represents God’s kingdom? ·        What proof is there to think the madness of the king represents the situation with God’s kingdom? ·        With what authority can we apply the rule of one day for a year in Num 14:34 or Eze 4:6 to Daniel’s prophecy? ·        Could we sure the term “times” in Daniel 4 and in Lu. 21:24 apply to the same period? o   What’s the basis for this? o   Does not it seem to fit word for word Lu 21:24 and Rev. 11:2? o   Why, then, to base all our knowledge about the last days in a mere possibility? 1914 Alternatives. First Century fulfillment?
JWInsider has pointed out the idea that Jesus was crowned in the first century. Even postulating that Revelation 12 was fully fulfilled at that time. I think that to consider that important parts of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century is going to the other extreme. It’s my humble opinion.
Yes, it’s true that Revelation mention some past happenings, well direct or indirectly.
(Revelation 1:5, 6) “… who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests…” And mention some of the developments as if they had already happened
(Revelation 11:15) “…The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ…” But we could reach to another explanation WITHOUT HANGING in 1914. This better explained in another place. Suffice for now to think that these happenings took place neither in the first century nor in 1914.
What problems arise with the first century fulfillment of Revelation?
Rev 11:15-18 links the start of the kingdom to the resurrection time. These verses are a preamble of the next chapters, including the vision of chapter 12.
(Revelation 11:15, 18) “…you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king …and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones…” (Revelation 12:10-17) “…Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom …So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, ...” There are remaining ones because some of them are on heaven while other are still enduring on earth. So, the resurrection has already begun in Rev. 12 time
But the resurrection didn’t happen in the first century:
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) “…we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death …that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first…”  
How many times was David crowned?
·        (2 Samuel 2:4) “…Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David as king over the house of Judah…”
·        (2 Samuel 5:3) “…So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Jehovah. Then they anointed David as king over Israel.”
In the same way, why could not be possible to view Jesus crowned in the first century, when he went to heaven, as many verses seems to probe and as JWInsider has aptly showed us?
And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time?
I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why?
Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory.
I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions.
And, finally, in this way, we have that it’s perfectly possible the modern time fulfillment of Revelation (above all chapter 12), the coronation of Jesus in 33 (mainly, but not only over his congregation ) and modern times coronation when Jehovah order Him: “conquer your enemies”
Please, please, please… it isn’t necessary 1914 at all! What if the coronation, most of the Revelation fulfillment is still future? Well, this is theme for other day…

I’m exhausted following this topic.
I think this thread about 1914 reflects very well the negative aspects reflected in these words:
(1 Timothy 1:4) “…nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith…”
1914. Only available to intelligent people.
When I was a teenager I felt very proud with myself because I was able to explain by heart the seven times prophecy. Perhaps only a third in my congregation, or less, could explain this reasonably well.
Nowadays, I doubt if a few of the brotherhood could express intelligibly why we believe in the importance of this date. So, what about this basic principle?
(1 Corinthians 1:26) “…For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, …” I’m amazed with the struggle with different technics to determine the accuracy or lack of exactitude of 1914. Even astronomic calculus with specialized software! Thanks, JWInsider! Plus a lot of historical and archeological skills.
And, by the way. The humbler and less able to explain “deep” ideas like this, the more faith I see that these brothers have. More than me.
1914. A polysemic date.
JWInsider has explained to the satiety that from its very beginning this date was conceived with other and changing meanings. Perhaps the most important change was to think that Christ’s presence started in 1874, and 1914 would mark the end of the human domination on Earth. Our present understanding is, as you all know, that Jesus started as king and his presence at that date.
1914. We need more than the Bible
But other post, recently, has put it very clear, and I fully agree:
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial … so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work…” But now, it turns out that I must learn Archeology and History to determine the exact date Jerusalem was conquered 2500 years ago!
1914. In opposition to the spirit and the letter of Jesus’s words.
The advice in the following passages is to live each day as if the Master could arrive in any moment. No trying to determine the length of a period of time, in order to calculate the prolongation of the “last days”,
(Matthew 24:42) “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming…” But we officially believe Jesus really came in 1914, and from this date he is present… in fact ruling! The idea of two different kinds of arrivals (1914 as king, later as executor), this differentiation is not in the Bible. There is only ONE arrival.
 1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith
*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers ***
Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.
In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914?
1914. Violates the “five fingers” process.
As I’ve expressed in other post. If we take verses on each side of the Bible we are incurring in a real danger of twisting the Scriptures. Let’s see.
·        What scriptural proof is there to consider Nebuchadnezzar type of Christ? ·        What scriptural proof is there to think the Nab. kingship represents God’s kingdom? ·        What proof is there to think the madness of the king represents the situation with God’s kingdom? ·        With what authority can we apply the rule of one day for a year in Num 14:34 or Eze 4:6 to Daniel’s prophecy? ·        Could we sure the term “times” in Daniel 4 and in Lu. 21:24 apply to the same period? o   What’s the basis for this? o   Does not it seem to fit word for word Lu 21:24 and Rev. 11:2? o   Why, then, to base all our knowledge about the last days in a mere possibility? 1914 Alternatives. First Century fulfillment?
JWInsider has pointed out the idea that Jesus was crowned in the first century. Even postulating that Revelation 12 was fully fulfilled at that time. I think that to consider that important parts of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century is going to the other extreme. It’s my humble opinion.
Yes, it’s true that Revelation mention some past happenings, well direct or indirectly.
(Revelation 1:5, 6) “… who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests…” And mention some of the developments as if they had already happened
(Revelation 11:15) “…The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ…” But we could reach to another explanation WITHOUT HANGING in 1914. This better explained in another place. Suffice for now to think that these happenings took place neither in the first century nor in 1914.
What problems arise with the first century fulfillment of Revelation?
Rev 11:15-18 links the start of the kingdom to the resurrection time. These verses are a preamble of the next chapters, including the vision of chapter 12.
(Revelation 11:15, 18) “…you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king …and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones…” (Revelation 12:10-17) “…Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom …So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, ...” There are remaining ones because some of them are on heaven while other are still enduring on earth. So, the resurrection has already begun in Rev. 12 time
But the resurrection didn’t happen in the first century:
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) “…we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death …that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first…”  
How many times was David crowned?
·        (2 Samuel 2:4) “…Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David as king over the house of Judah…”
·        (2 Samuel 5:3) “…So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Jehovah. Then they anointed David as king over Israel.”
In the same way, why could not be possible to view Jesus crowned in the first century, when he went to heaven, as many verses seems to probe and as JWInsider has aptly showed us?
And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time?
I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why?
Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory.
I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions.
And, finally, in this way, we have that it’s perfectly possible the modern time fulfillment of Revelation (above all chapter 12), the coronation of Jesus in 33 (mainly, but not only over his congregation ) and modern times coronation when Jehovah order Him: “conquer your enemies”
Please, please, please… it isn’t necessary 1914 at all! What if the coronation, most of the Revelation fulfillment is still future? Well, this is theme for other day…

I fully agree! I share the feelings of many if I say that JWInsider  has helped us to think a lot deeper. And his  commentaries reveal a lot of knowledge! Thanks JWI for sharing

I fully agree! I share the feelings of many if I say that JWInsider  has helped us to think a lot deeper. And his  commentaries reveal a lot of knowledge! Thanks JWI for sharing

Some apostates of Christendom say Jesus became King in 33 C.E. [or sometime in the first century]  Yet in 33 C.E. the Apostles asked Jesus "WHEN" are you restoring the Kingdom. So obviously that teaching of Christendom is wrong as is the Trinity, Hellfire and Immortal Soul. Acts 1:6. And this was "after" he was given all authority. But obviously not Kingdom authority because that came much later in 1914.  
  In 33 C.E., Jesus made it clearly known that the corulers who would assist the King of God’s Kingdom would be taken from the earth and raised to life as spirit creatures in heaven. His disciples, though, did not immediately understand this revelation. (Dan. 7:18; John 14:2-5) In that same year, Jesus indicated by means of illustrations that the Kingdom would not be established until a LONG TIME AFTER he ascended to heaven. (Matt. 25:14, 19; Luke 19:11, 12) The disciples did not comprehend this vital point and later asked the resurrected Jesus: “Are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at THIS TIME?” Jesus, however, chose not to reveal any more details AT THAT time. (Acts 1:6, 7).
“Respecting the PRESENCE of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of you not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal MESSAGE {internet blog} or through a letter as though FROM US, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. Let no one [including bloggers] seduce you in any manner, because it will not come unless the APOSTASY COMES FIRST and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.”—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
{So the "presence" is long after the First Century as the apostasy would be revealed first and of course Jesus' illustrations regarding that Kingdom. And notice the apostasy is related to the presence of Jesus as they [the apostates] would say he came at THAT time and not a later time} 
{"FROM US" at 2 Thess. 2:1-3 - obviously INTERPRETATIVE AUTHORITY came from JEHOVAH'S ORGANIZATION not from individual bloggers who think they have insider interpretative authority.} 

the JW inside must be too, with all these notes, making for all of us ! I say thanks, for all the good research.

 
 

"Many will rove about and the true knowledge will become abundant".
Thanks JWI and ComfortMYPeople for this exchange. This is also roving about.
 However, as Archive@L had said earlier quoting 1 Cor 13:12  "at present I know partially but then I shall know accurately" .  Most Bible students acknowledge that understanding of any prophecy is confirmed only after its fulfiilment. But JWI kindly reminded us of the scripture in 1 Peter 1:10-12 about making a diligent inquiry and a careful search and continuing our investigation. ( So we must not get tired of the rumble and tumble. We seniors are pretty tough! Smile! Notice the energy of JWI and how well he writes?  If you miss me, though, I might be getting a beauty sleep.)
The faithful slave has just adjusted something surrounding when the anointed came out of Babylon the Great. There will also be other adjustments.   
Comfort, that was well set out and a good synopsis.                 

I’m exhausted following this topic.
I think this thread about 1914 reflects very well the negative aspects reflected in these words:
(1 Timothy 1:4) “…nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies. Such things end up in nothing useful but merely give rise to speculations rather than providing anything from God in connection with faith…”
1914. Only available to intelligent people.
When I was a teenager I felt very proud with myself because I was able to explain by heart the seven times prophecy. Perhaps only a third in my congregation, or less, could explain this reasonably well.
Nowadays, I doubt if a few of the brotherhood could express intelligibly why we believe in the importance of this date. So, what about this basic principle?
(1 Corinthians 1:26) “…For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, …” I’m amazed with the struggle with different technics to determine the accuracy or lack of exactitude of 1914. Even astronomic calculus with specialized software! Thanks, JWInsider! Plus a lot of historical and archeological skills.
And, by the way. The humbler and less able to explain “deep” ideas like this, the more faith I see that these brothers have. More than me.
1914. A polysemic date.
JWInsider has explained to the satiety that from its very beginning this date was conceived with other and changing meanings. Perhaps the most important change was to think that Christ’s presence started in 1874, and 1914 would mark the end of the human domination on Earth. Our present understanding is, as you all know, that Jesus started as king and his presence at that date.
1914. We need more than the Bible
But other post, recently, has put it very clear, and I fully agree:
(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial … so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work…” But now, it turns out that I must learn Archeology and History to determine the exact date Jerusalem was conquered 2500 years ago!
1914. In opposition to the spirit and the letter of Jesus’s words.
The advice in the following passages is to live each day as if the Master could arrive in any moment. No trying to determine the length of a period of time, in order to calculate the prolongation of the “last days”,
(Matthew 24:42) “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming…” But we officially believe Jesus really came in 1914, and from this date he is present… in fact ruling! The idea of two different kinds of arrivals (1914 as king, later as executor), this differentiation is not in the Bible. There is only ONE arrival.
 1914. It’s a date. The Christians didn’t utilize dates as a foundation of their faith
*** w14 2/15 p. 27 Questions From Readers ***
Could the first-century Jews have calculated the time of the Messiah’s arrival on the basis of the prophecy of the 70 weeks recorded at Daniel 9:24-27? While that possibility cannot be ruled out, it cannot be confirmed. The fact is that there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding.
In reality, we all know no Jesus nor Paul in writing to the Hebrews made use of the dates in the 70 weeks prophecy to proof that Jesus was the Messiah. Why should we different regarding 1914?
1914. Violates the “five fingers” process.
As I’ve expressed in other post. If we take verses on each side of the Bible we are incurring in a real danger of twisting the Scriptures. Let’s see.
·        What scriptural proof is there to consider Nebuchadnezzar type of Christ? ·        What scriptural proof is there to think the Nab. kingship represents God’s kingdom? ·        What proof is there to think the madness of the king represents the situation with God’s kingdom? ·        With what authority can we apply the rule of one day for a year in Num 14:34 or Eze 4:6 to Daniel’s prophecy? ·        Could we sure the term “times” in Daniel 4 and in Lu. 21:24 apply to the same period? o   What’s the basis for this? o   Does not it seem to fit word for word Lu 21:24 and Rev. 11:2? o   Why, then, to base all our knowledge about the last days in a mere possibility? 1914 Alternatives. First Century fulfillment?
JWInsider has pointed out the idea that Jesus was crowned in the first century. Even postulating that Revelation 12 was fully fulfilled at that time. I think that to consider that important parts of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century is going to the other extreme. It’s my humble opinion.
Yes, it’s true that Revelation mention some past happenings, well direct or indirectly.
(Revelation 1:5, 6) “… who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— and he made us to be a kingdom, priests…” And mention some of the developments as if they had already happened
(Revelation 11:15) “…The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ…” But we could reach to another explanation WITHOUT HANGING in 1914. This better explained in another place. Suffice for now to think that these happenings took place neither in the first century nor in 1914.
What problems arise with the first century fulfillment of Revelation?
Rev 11:15-18 links the start of the kingdom to the resurrection time. These verses are a preamble of the next chapters, including the vision of chapter 12.
(Revelation 11:15, 18) “…you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king …and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones…” (Revelation 12:10-17) “…Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom …So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, ...” There are remaining ones because some of them are on heaven while other are still enduring on earth. So, the resurrection has already begun in Rev. 12 time
But the resurrection didn’t happen in the first century:
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) “…we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death …that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first…”  
How many times was David crowned?
·        (2 Samuel 2:4) “…Then the men of Judah came, and there they anointed David as king over the house of Judah…”
·        (2 Samuel 5:3) “…So all the elders of Israel came to the king at Hebron, and King David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Jehovah. Then they anointed David as king over Israel.”
In the same way, why could not be possible to view Jesus crowned in the first century, when he went to heaven, as many verses seems to probe and as JWInsider has aptly showed us?
And, at the same time, why could not be possible to expect a new crowning ceremony in the future, in the Revelation time?
I find it possible, unlike JWInsider opinion, because I think he (JWI) has mentioned the riding of the horsemen of Revelation 6 starts with the resurrection of Christ in 33, and the wars, pests and famine are the habitual conditions from then. But this is hard to me to believe. Why?
Because the “second” coronation (Rev.6) is marked with victories, conquers (Rev.6:2). But what happened from the end of first century until recent times? The apostasy, the dark ages… the contrary to victory.
I’ve already presented my view, error prone obviously, that the colored horses could mean victories of the King against enemies, not society conditions.
And, finally, in this way, we have that it’s perfectly possible the modern time fulfillment of Revelation (above all chapter 12), the coronation of Jesus in 33 (mainly, but not only over his congregation ) and modern times coronation when Jehovah order Him: “conquer your enemies”
Please, please, please… it isn’t necessary 1914 at all! What if the coronation, most of the Revelation fulfillment is still future? Well, this is theme for other day…

WAITING… AND FIGHTING
ARchiv@L, I appreciate your advice. Very laconic, but appropriate. Only to develop a little further my attitude, let me mention David example in, perhaps, the most difficult part of his life, when persecuted by Saul.

He had the temptation (as myself sometimes) to escape and wait if Jehovah fix the situation. But Jehovah had another plan for him:
(1 Samuel 22:5) In time Gad the prophet said to David: “Do not stay in the stronghold. Go from there into the land of Judah.” So David left and went into the forest of Heʹreth” And again in the middle of the fight…

And sure you remember when the future king was forced to run away between the Philistines, even in that painful situation, he continued to support the people of God… commanded by his worst enemy.
 
(1 Samuel 27:7, 8) “The length of time that David lived in the countryside of the Phi·lisʹtines was a year and four months. David would go up with his men to raid the Geshʹur·ites, the Girʹzites, and the A·malʹek·ites, for they were inhabiting the land that extended from Teʹlam as far as Shur and down to the land of Egypt”.  These wars, in spite of the opinion of his enemies, were considered, in reality “the wars of Jehovah” (1Sa 25:28)

To meditate in this example has helped to me to wait and fight. TO FIGHT against the outer enemy: the false religions and their false teachings: hell fire, trinity and so. I don’t meant fighting holding a banner in our conventions and shouting “the 1914 teaching is untruth”.

As I consider the Congregation has a Leader more wise and powerful than me, I WAIT he will fix any situation he considers worth of change when he considers the proper moment.

(Luke 12:47, 48) . . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
 
Anna, everyone of us know who has the responsability to fix the situation: "his master on coming" (Lu 12:43)
So, what can we do? Wait, be busy in the work and making fine things, and pray.
Pray for these brothers in th GB, that they have the wisdom and courage to act. Pray for the humble ones, that Jehovah grant them faith to wait without stumbling

Lately I've been too busy to post anything. But these last ideas put forward by JWI fit so well with what I've been thinking for years that I wish to express my totally agree. I hope that those on charge, have the humility to recognize their mistakes and the courage to explain it openly, no matter what happens and whoever falls, however sad it may be. The truth can not, it should not be covered more time. The servant must be prudent, true, but first he must be faithful.

(Ezekiel 44:25, 26) “They should not approach any dead human, or they will become unclean. However, they may make themselves unclean for their father, mother, son, daughter, brother, or an unmarried sister. And after the purification of a priest, they should count off seven days for him”
 
The priest should not contact any dead human… except his nearest relatives. Jehovah is very reasonable and comprehensive when dictating rules.
Would not it be fine to apply the same principle when we deal with disfellowshipped people? Why Paul doesn’t mention these exceptions in 1Cor 5? Why Ezekiel doesn’t mention the priest’s wife? Perhaps, because the common sense would guide the application. It isn’t the same my cousin than my father, it is?
Other reference:
(Leviticus 21:1, 2) “Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “Talk to the priests, Aaron’s sons, and say to them, ‘No one should defile himself for a dead person among his people. But he may do so for a close blood relative, for his mother, his father, his son, his daughter, his brother,…”

That's just it. It wasn't a foundation in the first place. The "foundation in the first place" was something called "Israel's Double" based on a now debunked idea that Israel would get a "double" amount of time, resulting in a parallel dispensation between Israel and Christianity, the Old and the New. Many Second Adventists scrambled quickly for new explanations after William Miller's spectacular failure. Miller had predicted Christ's Return in 1844, based mostly on the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14, coupled with the idea that the 7th Millennium had just dawned (6,000 years from Adam).
One of several popular updates to Miller's chronology, was to fix the start of the Millennium to 1872. Then "Israel's Double" counting from the death of Jacob (a.k.a. "Israel") to the death of Jesus in 33 C.E. gave the length of Israel's first dispensation (era/age). That was calculated to be 1,845 years. Adding 1,845 years to the year 33 C.E. showed that the second dispensation would end in 1878. 1845+33=1878.
But that was when Jesus had become King in 33 C.E. and therefore King again in 1878. Jesus became "present" as the Christ back in 29/30 C.E. and therefore also in 1874. But the preaching to Israel could last until 70 C.E. which was a full 40 years from the time Jesus started preaching after his baptism. Therefore, this was one of the reasons to believe in a 40 year "harvest" that would last from 1874 to 1914 (as it did from 30 to 70).
Therefore the October 1889 Watch Tower, and Volume II of Millennial Dawn (also in 1889), and several other issues of Zion's Watch Tower repeatedly spoke of "Israel's Double" especially since that time.
With this all in mind, recall our statements and the Scripture testimonies on the subject of Israel's double;--that the first part, from the beginning of the nation at the death of Jacob to the rejection of the nation at the death of Christ, was a period of 1845 years of waiting for the promised kingdom, during which they had divine favor and supervision (discipline, etc.); and that when they then rejected and crucified the Redeemer, they were sentenced to a "double" or repetition of their already long period of waiting --during which God would show them no favor, manifest no interest in them. Every Jew of intelligence and piety is able to recognize the fulfilment of these predictions of the prophets.--Zech. 9:12;Jer. 16:18; Isa. 40:2.
And note the fact so pointedly marked --that where their double of waiting for the Kingdom expired, the kingdom did come in 1878; which we think MILLENNIAL DAWN, Vol. II., clearly proves from the Scriptures.
And this must have been pretty convincing because the February 1890 Watch Tower prints approving letters about how persons have been responding to these latest publications. (Dawn content was also included as a replacement for the content of some recent Watch Tower issues in 1889.)  One person responded by trying to sell off everything and giving what was left over that he could offer to the Watch Tower:
DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:--After reading Dawn, Vol. II., the chapters on "The Times of the Gentiles," "The Jubilee Cycles," Israel's Double and the Time Chronology, I became convinced that we are indeed in the time of the harvest, while the chapter on the manner of our Lord's second coming and the harmony of present indications leaves no room for even a doubt. Then in place of marrying and settling down, as I undoubtedly would have done, I sold off my personal property, paid all my indebtedness except a mortgage on some land, to engage in this harvest work. As I have not as yet been able to sell the land, and it being mostly unimproved will not rent for enough to pay the interest on the mortgage and the taxes, I thought to spend about a week in the spring putting in enough of a crop to pay the expenses of the place till I can sell it. If I can sell it for even a good deal less than I thought it was worth two years ago, I would have a few hundred dollars left to use as an offering to the Lord. My neighbors thought me very foolish at the course I have taken, and when I began to hold up the truth I met with opposition, but our blessed Lord and Saviour suffered without the gates and we may go to him without the camp bearing his reproach. I esteem the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt. I will not be afraid of them, neither of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks. Yours in the Lord, W. B__________.
All this is confirmed in the Proclaimers book:
*** jv chap. 28 p. 632 Testing and Sifting From Within ***
Based on the premise that events of the first century might find parallels in related events later, they also concluded that if Jesus’ baptism and anointing in the autumn of 29 C.E. paralleled the beginning of an invisible presence in 1874, then his riding into Jerusalem as King in the spring of 33 C.E. would point to the spring of 1878 as the time when he would assume his power as heavenly King. They also thought they would be given their heavenly reward at that time. When that did not occur, they concluded that since Jesus’ anointed followers were to share with him in the Kingdom, the resurrection to spirit life of those already sleeping in death began then. It was also reasoned that the end of God’s special favor to natural Israel down to 36 C.E. might point to 1881 as the time when the special opportunity to become part of spiritual Israel would close. . . . That 1878 was a year of significance seemed to be fortified by reference to Jeremiah 16:18 (‘Jacob’s double,’ KJ) along with calculations indicating that 1,845 years had apparently elapsed from Jacob’s death down till 33 C.E., when natural Israel was cast off, and that the double, or duplicate, of this would extend from 33 C.E. down to 1878.
Extending the parallels further, it was stated that the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 C.E. (37 years after Jesus was hailed as king by his disciples when he rode into Jerusalem) might point to 1915 (37 years after 1878) for a culmination of anarchistic upheaval that they thought God would permit as a means for bringing existing institutions of the world to their end. This date appeared in reprints of Studies in the Scriptures. (See Volume II, pages 99-101, 171, 221, 232, 246-7; compare reprint of 1914 with earlier printings, such as the 1902 printing of Millennial Dawn.) It seemed to them that this fitted well with what had been published regarding the year 1914 as marking the end of the Gentile Times.
 
By the time of  "Dawn" (Volume II) it was beginning to be a more important part of the 1914 explanation. But even in the chapter on the Gentile Times, from page 73 up to page 90 of that chapter, Daniel 4 is not mentioned, yet, except as a reference to show that sometimes the word "times" can also refer to literal years. This is contrasted at first with the more important use of "seven times" in Leviticus that is a better match to Jesus' use of "times" in Luke 21:24. The real focus on the seven Gentile times was in Leviticus:
Now bear in mind the date already found for the beginning of these Gentile Times--viz., B.C. 606--while we proceed to examine the evidence proving their length to be 2520 years, ending A.D. 1914. . . .  
Turning to Leviticus we find recorded blessings and cursings of an earthly and temporal character. If Israel would obey God faithfully, they would be blessed above other nations; if not, certain evils would befall them. The conclusion is stated thus: "And I will walk among you and be your God, and ye shall be my people;...but if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments, ...I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies; they that hate you shall reign over you." "And ye shall sow your seed in vain; for your enemies shall eat it." "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, THEN I WILL PUNISH YOU SEVEN TIMES more [further] for your sins." Lev. 26:17,18,24,28
This threat of "seven times" of punishment is mentioned three times. . . .  But these chastisements having failed, he applied the threatened seven times: the crown was permanently removed, and Israel, as well as the whole world, was subject to the beastly powers for seven times. Thus it befell them according to God's warning--"If ye will not yet for all this [previous chastisements] hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times."
. . .  These seven times therefore refer to the length of time during which the Gentiles should rule over them. And to this period of "seven times" our Lord undoubtedly referred when speaking of "the Times of the Gentiles."
The tree dream is finally mentioned, however, at some length, from page 90 to 97. Russell uses it under the heading "Another Line of Testimony." But he admits that it is only through a type-antitype method because in Nebuchadnezzar's case this had referred to literal years:
  . . . the Hebrew word translated "seven times" in Leviticus 26:18,21,24,28, is the same word so translated in Daniel 4:16,23,25,32, except that in Daniel the word iddan is added, whereas in Leviticus it is left to be understood. . . . In Nebuchadnezzar's case they were literal years, but, as we shall yet see, both Nebuchadnezzar and his "seven times" were typical. . . .  True to Daniel's interpretation, we are told that "All this came upon the king, Nebuchadnezzar," and that in this insane, degraded, beastly condition he wandered among the beasts until seven times (seven literal years in his case) passed over him. Daniel's interpretation of the dream relates only to its fulfilment upon Nebuchadnezzar; but the fact that the dream, the interpretation and the fulfilment are all so carefully related here is evidence of an object in its narration. And its remarkable fitness as an illustration of the divine purpose in subjecting the whole race to the dominion of evil for its punishment and correction, that in due time God might restore and establish it in righteousness and everlasting life, warrants us in accepting it as an intended type. . . .  The exact date of Nebuchadnezzar's degradation is not stated, and is of no consequence, because the period of his degradation typified the entire period of Gentile dominion . . . .
I didn't have space to include all the statements that are ironic in their confusion about what Nebuchadnezzar represents. He represented the dominion of all nations, the whole race and dominion of evil. Yet only this Gentile's 7 years of degradation represented Gentile dominion, not his years of actual Gentile domination. His restoration to Gentile dominion therefore would represent the end of Gentile dominion when Jesus (a non-Gentile) is restored to the throne of Israel. 
1914 had already been established more clearly through other methods (which we no longer accept). However, by 1890 Russell was here treating Daniel 4 at least on par with all other evidence. It was a bit better than the treatment in that first article about the seven Gentile times he had published in the Bible Examiner back in October 1876. At best, initially, one could say that the seven times was not "dependent" on Daniel 4 alone, but that Daniel 4 provided supplementary evidence to Leviticus. In fact, Russell spoke of the "seven times" as a less clear method of showing that 1914 would see the end of the great time of trouble Gentile nations had caused. In Bible Examiner, after using mostly Leviticus, but also combined with Daniel 4, he had concluded:
We will ask, but not now answer, another question: If the Gentile Times end in 1914, (and there are many other and clearer evidences pointing to the same time) . . . 
Note, that it was the many other evidences that were clearer than either Leviticus or Daniel 4. These clearer evidences had already been based on 1874 and 1878 which Russell had shown were more sure because they had been indicated through so many different "independent" proofs.